Want to be done with this process

[Sonofnature]

Hey Alexey!

It’s clear that you’re seeing through a lot of layers of belief, and while that can feel deeply unsettling, it’s also a sign that clarity is emerging. This process—dismantling these long-held stories and expectations—can feel like the ground falling out from under you. It’s okay to feel disillusioned, frustrated, and even angry as you process it all.

You’ve hit on something significant: the mechanism of seeking, of the story that says, “You’re not whole until X happens.” This is the foundation of so much suffering. Whether it’s packaged in spiritual terms, material success, relationships, or anything else, the promise of a magical future where you’ll finally “arrive” keeps the illusion of lack alive. It’s powerful to see this so clearly.

As for the people you mentioned—Adyashanti, Angelo, Suzanne, and others—it’s natural to feel disillusioned when you start questioning the narratives they present. It’s not about labeling them as frauds or invalidating their experiences; it’s about seeing that their words and teachings are filtered through their perspectives and conditioning. And how you interpret what they are saying is filtered through your perspective and conditioning.

Right now, in this moment, can you look at what’s actually here? Not the stories of delusion, enlightenment, or lack, but the raw sensations, the sounds, the seeing, the thoughts as they arise and pass. Is there anything missing here? Keep coming back to the simplicity of this moment, to what’s undeniably here, beyond all the concepts and narratives.

This kind of exploration can stir up a lot, and it’s okay to rest, to pause, and to let the pieces settle. There’s no rush.

Whenever you feel ready, I would like to invite you to meditate on the question "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question. Let me know how that works out for you.

[NoSuchThing2]

Right now, in this moment, can you look at what’s actually here? Not the stories of delusion, enlightenment, or lack, but the raw sensations, the sounds, the seeing, the thoughts as they arise and pass. Is there anything missing here? Keep coming back to the simplicity of this moment, to what’s undeniably here, beyond all the concepts and narratives.

There is nothing and apparently no-one here. Utter simplicity, can't be any simpler. Nothing is missing from this. It's complete as there is nothing else.

"What's here that's not a thought?"

There's nothing here, just silence, appearance of some sensations since I'm laying in bed. There is no doubt or thoughts arising about it (maybe micro thoughts I can barely notice, but not dialogue).

It's the same silence and clarity I've been referring to since I noticed it happening after the What am I inquiry.

[Sonofnature]

So who or what are you? And what is a self?

[NoSuchThing2]

So who or what are you?

I don't know, or sometimes, I'm all of this.

And what is a self?

Not sure how to answer this question without giving a mind answer that feels theoretical. I'm trying to convey things as experientially as possible without using thoughts.

It’s not about labeling them as frauds or invalidating their experiences; it’s about seeing that their words and teachings are filtered through their perspectives and conditioning. And how you interpret what they are saying is filtered through your perspective and conditioning.

What I said about came from a very unique perspective I had yesterday. I saw them, and everything at that time, as utterly human, with all the imperfections, in an empty, deeply ordinary way, sort of how you'd see a sibling you've been living with for many years who the rest of the world thinks is special. The fraud part was part of what I was experiencing at the moment—a bone shaking disillusionment where I could see my beliefs detonate in a radical way. I don't know anything about their experiences, it was just part of what was coming up then.

The emotional and experiential volatility lately is quite high. There are fear states I described before, and also moments of extreme joy, beauty and overwhelming completeness of each moment, which are most apparent when going for a walk or being outside.

[Sonofnature]

I don't know, or sometimes, I'm all of this.

Who is it you are referring to that is sometimes all of this? How is that experienced in direct experience?

[NoSuchThing2]

Who is it you are referring to that is sometimes all of this?

It's not a who that I was referring to.

How is that experienced in direct experience?

The experience/moment feeling vast, open and all encompassing.

Marius, I feel like "no-self" hasn't yet penetrated deeply into my bones and cells.

My mind has been running laps and I've been feeling stuck in my head.

Writing things out does helps me notice cycles of me-ing and being. I heard this term recently, and it feels apt. I have a belief (a feeling inside) that one day it will be simply being, devoid of "me-ness" of such things as sticky self-referential and critical thoughts. However, direct experience shows that this moment is only what it is, now.

I've had my laptop open for about an hour or two nibbling at this message, and in this time the experience has transformed from feeling like a me-ing to a being.

I don't think I've ever had this much appreciation for what is now, as is, as I've been having lately.

[NoSuchThing2]

Marius,

Level with an internet stranger for a second. Is the ordinary Now all there truly is? The dropping away of personal me, loss of me story...etc what is all that? Is that real? What the fuck am I even doing dude? How is my perspective shifting so widely and rapidly from seemingly mystical to super ordinary? I don't take any substances and I don't think I'm depressed (not that there is anything wrong with sadness or depression). Why do I even care about this? It's still a form of seeking.

I feel like a moron sometimes asking outloud What Am I. I don't even know what I'm expecting to accomplish, an awakening? What is that? I can take some solace as that inquiry grounds me to the now, and helps shift the focus directly into the senses. And there is a belief that the self-inquiry is supposed to accomplish something. But what if I'm a guy sitting in front of a rock asking the rock "what are you?" for 10 years, and then a loving stranger comes over and says "hey, I just thought I'd tell you before you spend another 10 years waiting for answer, that you should probably move on, the rock isn't going to say something to you. It's just not how life works. You have to trust me. Go back into town, find a wife, or at least find something else to do man. Love ya brother, sorry if I bothered you, figured someone should say something to you."

You'd tell me if I was the rock staring guy, right?

The anger and frustration I expressed the other day at the non-dual gang IS rooted in something. People wouldn't listen to them if they just said "There is only the boring ol'' ordinary now, complete with ordinary life just as you see it now. There is TRULY nothing else to see here folks. TRULY nothing I tell you! DO NOT misinterpret my nothing for a magical nothing brimming with endless love, joy, and mystery; it's not that one. " If someone does 40 years of inquiry and mediation (bless their heart) and they find out they were misled, there will be devastation and anger.

Just so you know a little about me, I'm in my middle 30's, somewhere in South American mountains with a motorcycle I recently bought. I hardly drive it. I don't have a life to go back to, I don't have any responsibilities to anyone. I don't feel like I belong anywhere in life. It appears like there are others with lives worth living, or they are at least driven by some sort of life purpose/passion or necessity to work to survive (survival purpose). I don't have either of those two. I thought there was a freedom in not having to work, but I was wrong.

[Sonofnature]

Hey Alexey,

Your last post had me laughing out loud—what a great way to start the day! Thank you for that. 😅

But I have to break it to you: you’re kind of just staring at a rock...

...And yet, recognizing this and fully accepting it has profound implications—ones the mind simply cannot grasp. This isn’t something to be intellectually understood; it’s something to be experienced. And it seems like you’re already glimpsing this in those moments when you feel grounded in the “Now.” What seems to stand in the way is a belief—or perhaps a disbelief—that this is it.

Our minds are conditioned to search for happiness anywhere but here and now, always chasing the elusive "something else." And because we’ve experienced temporary satisfaction from achieving that "something else"—be it a new gadget, a well-paying job, or a big house—the mind projects similar fantasies onto the idea of enlightenment. This creates the expectation that enlightenment will deliver some ultimate, magical solution.

You’ve probably heard the quote, “You are already what you seek.” Doesn’t that make more sense in this context? When Socrates said, “The only thing I know is that I know nothing,” he wasn’t being dramatic—he was pointing to the truth that conceptual understanding isn’t truth. How could it be? Concepts are constructs of the mind, figments of imagination—the so-called “veil.” The only truth we can access is our direct experience. Everything else is unknowable.

I feel like 'no-self' hasn't yet penetrated deeply into my bones and cells.

This is just a thought. Who told you that “no-self” would penetrate your bones and cells? Without the thought of a self, where is the self?

I have a belief (a feeling inside) that one day it will be simply being, devoid of 'me-ness' and such things as sticky self-referential and critical thoughts.

Thoughts come and go, like everything else. They stick around and build momentum when you engage with them and feed them your energy. I also noticed that you’re still consuming spiritual content, even though I suggested pausing on that. Of course, it’s entirely up to you, but the reason I suggested this was to help avoid the cycle of seeing things clearly and then falling back into mental projections.

I don't think I've ever had this much appreciation for what is now, as is, as I've been having lately.

That’s beautiful. In my experience, this appreciation deepens naturally when the seeking for something “better” drops away. And of course, that’s not something you can force, because there’s no “you” to control it. It’s simply life unfolding as it is.

[NoSuchThing2]

But I have to break it to you: you’re kind of just staring at a rock...

Thanks so much, Marius. I deeply needed to hear this. You're awesome by the way for being so timely and committed to our dialogue.

The rock story felt beautiful as it was coming alive.

What seems to stand in the way is a belief—or perhaps a disbelief—that this is it.

Yes, it was a disbelief that was reinforced due to the content I was consuming. I kept feeling inadequacy due to not having "achieved" (or realized enough) of the No-Self!!!

This is just a thought. Who told you that “no-self” would penetrate your bones and cells? Without the thought of a self, where is the self?

I don't think you understand the level of delusion coupled with life dilemmas that I was/am experiencing. Our minds are deeply susceptible to the belief of an oasis down yonder, whether it's experiential or financial. Awakening and financial gurus are all using the same formula repackaged in more elaborate ways—just follow this one trick, or 3-step process to awaken to your true nature, or limitless financial freedom.

I also noticed that you’re still consuming spiritual content, even though I suggested pausing on that.

This was part of the delusion, I wanted for someone or something to give me hope that I was wrong. This is quite difficult to process as it's been delusion on top of delusion for over a decade—books, gurus, seekers, hope, trust, surrender... the entire spiritual and non-spiritual enchilada.

There are still people I know who are "trying", and supposed "awakened beings" who either lied and manipulated me, or are terribly deluded themselves. These are people I trusted with the most intimate elements of myself.

I suspect the same formula applies to everyone—a dire life situation without a clear way to make sense of it, or process it using conventional methods.

You were terribly kind to the non-dual gang that I mentioned previously. I guess you just processed it in that way to heal. The most broken and the lost seek out these people. They are either deeply deluded themselves, psychopaths, or charlatans.

Having said that, I do see some instances where trauma is so deep that a "spiritual solution" may be needed to ease the suffering. A rape or violence victim or the dying in their final hours asking if there is god or after-life. They don't need truth..

An important question is what do I make of my own mind? It's susceptible to this kind of a virus. It copes with life by going down this path.

It will take me some time to process this. The body and mind will heal in due time.

I do have to head back into the proverbial town and rebuild my destroyed ordinary life. I don't know what that will look like. The judgement, expectations and all the socially-derived "goodies" are still there.

[Sonofnature]

Yes, it was a disbelief that was reinforced due to the content I was consuming. I kept feeling inadequacy due to not having "achieved" (or realized enough) of the No-Self!!!

It’s great that you can see this now! In my experience, these patterns of doubt may still arise from time to time—it’s just the mind doing what it does. When those thoughts creep back in, hopefully, our conversation will have become part of your conditioning and remind you that doubt is just that: thoughts. Like everything else, they come and go. Realization isn’t about accumulating more knowledge; it’s more like an apparent process of letting go or an emptying, so to speak.

You were terribly kind to the non-dual gang that I mentioned previously. I guess you just processed it in that way to heal. The most broken and the lost seek out these people. They are either deeply deluded themselves, psychopaths, or charlatans.

This part brings up an invitation to explore the concept of non-doership and the illusion of control or free will. You mentioned earlier that you’ve already looked into this topic. What did you discover?

An important question is what do I make of my own mind? It's susceptible to this kind of a virus. It copes with life by going down this path.

I wouldn't spend too much energy on this question as I suspect it will clarify on it's own during our exploration.

The dropping away of personal me, loss of me story...etc what is all that? Is that real?

I realized I didn’t directly address this question from your previous post. Once it becomes clear that the "me" or "self" is nothing more than a mental construct, what falls away is the identification with it. The stories, beliefs, and assumptions that veil our experience begin to loosen their grip, and the fixation on the content of thoughts diminishes.

From this new perspective, we often notice our conditioning more clearly. As life brings up triggers, we become better equipped to meet and dissolve them, which can deepen our experience further. Over time, fewer things "stick," so to speak.

So, in one sense, yes, it’s real. 😊 This is also when inquiry often starts to feel more natural and effortless.

[NoSuchThing2]

Realization isn’t about accumulating more knowledge; it’s more like an apparent process of letting go or an emptying, so to speak.

I thought we weren't realizing things anymore. This sounds awfully spiritual. There is a fear that washed over me when I read the words "realization" "emptying" and "letting go". They made me phyysically sick.

This part brings up an invitation to explore the concept of non-doership and the illusion of control or free will. You mentioned earlier that you’ve already looked into this topic. What did you discover?

I understand, I didn't have a choice, they didn't have a choice. Everything is happening by itself. On and on this way.

Once it becomes clear that the "me" or "self" is nothing more than a mental construct, what falls away is the identification with it.

What about what you said it not needing to penetrate to the bone marrow and all the cells. This feels like we are taking a circuitous route back into spiritual land.

"...veil our experience..."
Gulp. Something is veiled again?

[Sonofnature]

I thought we weren't realizing things anymore. This sounds awfully spiritual. There is a fear that washed over me when I read the words "realization" "emptying" and "letting go". They made me phyysically sick.

I understand that words like "realization" "emptying" and "letting go" are loaded terms in your experience. This is great! It presents an opportunity to explore what is happening and why these concepts trigger such strong reactions. As a wise friend of mine keeps saying: It's never about what is triggering you, it's about what is being triggered within you.

In our exploration together it seems to me that it has become increasingly clear to you that the concept of "Enlightenment" isn't really the magical solution to everything that we have imagined it to be. This seems to have led to the creation of new stories (internal narratives), perhaps of betrayal and deceit, that is now projected on the "spiritual" teachers and speakers you have been listening to. Tho this is a completely understandable reaction, can you see how it is as deluded as believing in the story you held about enlightenment?

When I use the term "realization", I am pointing to a shift in perspective where we can see through the illusion of concepts, one of the strongest one being the concept of a self. When I use the term "emptying and letting go", I am pointing to emptying and letting go of the attachments to the stories we hold created by these concepts, so that we can experience life as it is, through direct experience and not filtered through "the veil" of concepts.

You mentioned earlier:

I feel like a moron sometimes asking outloud What Am I. I don't even know what I'm expecting to accomplish.

When doing self-inquiry, many people think that we are setting out to find out who or what we are, a common misunderstanding. What we are essentially doing is finding out what we are not and by doing so, severing the identification with what we are not. What we are left with is what is experienced as a "blank" mind, and with a blank mind we now can focus our attention on direct experience.

With this understanding, I think it's best that we take a step back and return to exploring our direct experience. I invite you again to meditate on "What's here that's not a thought?" If you have doubts about whether you're doing it correctly, note that these doubts are thoughts and return to the question. If you notice that there's silence after the question, note that the noticing of the fact of silence is a thought and return to the question. If you get frustrated, note that you're believing a thought like "this isn't working" or something similar and return to the question.

[NoSuchThing2]

This seems to have led to the creation of new stories (internal narratives), perhaps of betrayal and deceit, that is now projected on the "spiritual" teachers and speakers you have been listening to. Tho this is a completely understandable reaction, can you see how it is as deluded as believing in the story you held about enlightenment?

Yes, it's all delusion.

I woke up today no longer hurt or upset about the past. There was no more sting to it. I never had a choice, and neither did they. I don't know what to make of them anymore. I don't even know what the hell is going on anymore.

It's just a bit shocking how radically different my perspective and internal states are lately. How can I be so upset one day, and not upset the following? I feel like I'm in a different universe today than yesterday.

When I use the term "realization", I am pointing to a shift in perspective where we can see through the illusion of concepts, one of the strongest one being the concept of a self.

I feel like I did a great job cleaning up the compulsive seeking, I made plan to walk back into town (literally), and now it's this "shift in perspective" again?

Honestly, I don't believe it's possible. I feel like you are asking me to go back staring at the rock again hoping that something will change again? If it was possible, why didn't this shift occur already? It's been years. I'm asking from a genuine place, not debating.

[Sonofnature]

You first say:

It's just a bit shocking how radically different my perspective and internal states are lately.

Then follow up with:

I made plan to walk back into town (literally), and now it's this "shift in perspective" again?
Honestly, I don't believe it's possible.

Do you see the contradiction there? :)

I feel like you are asking me to go back staring at the rock again hoping that something will change again? If it was possible, why didn't this shift occur already? It's been years. I'm asking from a genuine place, not debating.

Again, it seems like you a projecting whatever story you have assigned to the word "shift".

You have already had a major shift in perspective, and there will probably many more as we explore more of your assumptions and beliefs.

For now, we need to get back to direct experience. Here is an exercise for you might find helpful:

Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that
there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up
with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember
putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they
actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear
about this difference. Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not
interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on
in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct
experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

[NoSuchThing2]

Thanks for clarifying it for me.

Please know that I'll be here as long as necessary, and that I'm trying to communicate with you only from direct experience.

I'm trying to follow you as best as I can. Things are just changing so much the last few days and weeks. I don't know what to make of it. A part of me feels like I'm a little insane to have my perspectives vacillate so much, but I can't do anything about what is going on. I trust that you are familiar with what's happening. And it's good to know that these changes in perspective are palpable to you as well. I can't imagine what this must look like to someone else.

From our last dialogue, I thought you basically said, it's only this Now, stop starring at the rock, go home. That's how I interpreted what you said.

I made plans to head back to US in a few days (don't worry, it won't affect anything here). I haven't looked at any videos on this topic or read anything, just figured you told me that stuff is done and not to mess around with it anymore.

I started focusing on what I will be doing with my time when I get back.

it seems like you a projecting whatever story you have assigned to the word "shift".

Yes, you are spot in picking up on me assigning and projecting some conceptual story to the word "shift".
I recall Angelo using that terminology so I conflated it with some concept of awakening, that's why I was confused and triggered.

Coloured Socks

Yup, I'm totally clear on this and I've been only giving you my direct moment to moment experience, not what I think the experience is like.

For example, when you asked me what a self was, I replied I didn't know. Experientially in this moment, I still don't know. I can think about what a self is or ought to be, but that's not what we've been discussing.

When you say meditate, you mean more like invoke and follow? It's not repetitive like a mantra, but I just say it out loud and let the attention flow to it. Then some moments, minutes or hours later I do it again.