Breaking the first fetter

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for the explanation and encouragement! There was some resistance when I tried to inquire and reply to your responses last few days. The resistance came up as contraction in the chest and the mind started to pay attention to other things to distract from the inquiry.

Thank you for pushing me with your gentle yet constructive clear guidance!

But does an inherent material object (“apple”) exist in DE? Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content? Or is just smell-ING (verb) labelled “object’s SMELL”, feeling labelled “object’s FEEL”, etc. and thought content/assumption that that the object exists in the first place?

There’s no physical object apple is in my direct experience right now. Nothing to be smelled, touched, taste, or hear right now in my DE as an “apple.” The “apple” label and description created by the mind and shows up as memory. It’s really unclear whether the “apple” object exists in the first place. I assumed apple exists because I remember that object in all the grocery stores I’ve been to. However, now I don’t have a definite evidence that the object actually exists in the first place because I physically didn’t stand and witness an apple coming into an existence. In my DE, there’s just happening of sensations about the object “apple” in my mind, but there’s no physical thing called “apple” front of me.

But is the word ‘apple’ the real thing itself?

No, not at all. The word “apple” is just a noise that distinguishes it from other things. We truly don’t know that object is really called “Apple.” I guess so as everything that is labeled in the human language cannot be proven whether they are actually what they’re called. It’s interesting how labeling and naming things create limitation in the mind and perception.

Is this clear now?

Yes, it’s clear now.

Please write a few examples from your daily life.

1. Reading a book.

Seeing the book: seeing colors and shapes
Smelling the book: simple smelling in the nose
Feeling the book: slightly cool to touch with sharp edges around
Tasting the book: simply taste in the mouth
Hearing the book: the sound of pages being moved back and forth
Thought about reading the book: simply thoughts happening and passing by.

2. Feeling body aches.

Seeing: just seeing the shapes and features of the body
Smelling: just the smelling that’s there
Feeling: warmth of the skin on the surface and tightness of the body underneath the skin.
Tasting: just the tasting that’s there
Hearing: just hearing that’s the body’s making such as breathing, grumbling in tummy, the humming noise of the room/fan/dog barks
Thought about feeling achy: just thought that’s acknowledging the state of the body

I will do these inquiries more throughout my days and will observe and write them down. I will do my best to be in contact daily to let you know how I’m doing with inquiries and whether I was able to or not despite the life’s many happenings.

I appreciate you!

Cheers,

Yuri

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

Thank you for the explanation and encouragement! There was some resistance when I tried to inquire and reply to your responses last few days. The resistance came up as contraction in the chest and the mind started to pay attention to other things to distract from the inquiry.

Thank you for pushing me with your gentle yet constructive clear guidance!

You are doing great! This is completely normal. Resistance is there to protect the imaginary self – old patterns, habits and beliefs. You said it yourself, there is just a sensation that is labelled “resistance”, which appears when beliefs are challenged, and once this is seen properly, it all falls away. You can always rely on me for a Zen stick ;)

There’s no physical object apple is in my direct experience right now. Nothing to be smelled, touched, taste, or hear right now in my DE as an “apple.” The “apple” label and description created by the mind and shows up as memory. It’s really unclear whether the “apple” object exists in the first place. I assumed apple exists because I remember that object in all the grocery stores I’ve been to. However, now I don’t have a definite evidence that the object actually exists in the first place because I physically didn’t stand and witness an apple coming into an existence. In my DE, there’s just happening of sensations about the object “apple” in my mind, but there’s no physical thing called “apple” front of me.

Just to clarify, so it is clear beyond any doubt…
You don’t have to witness the “creation of an apple” to know for sure that it doesn’t exist as an “object”. You just have to see how things really are...

In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. Seeing is like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper (or screen).


Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

Have a look at this abstract painting.


Direct experience can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there – they are “created” by the nuances/patterns of colour - but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?

Here is a video that also illustrates this. See how thought is struggling to label the experience with unfamiliar "shapes":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJyUtbn ... 4&index=33

I hope you would agree that memories are thoughts…What a thought “does” is describing the experience (giving it meaning). So a label is just a name for a pattern of DE. Can you see this?

How can you ever be sure that a material object “apple” exists from your DE point of view – you experience the colour, smell, taste, and sensation and you ASSUME that an object “apple” exists inherently. All you have is ONLY the 5 senses. There are tasting (tastes), seeing (colours/shapes), feeling (sensations when eating and touching), smelling (smells) – no hearing an “apple”. If you notice I used verbs as these are happening in motion, there is a flux, not a frozen picture. Then thought appears and describes that you are seeing an “apple”, tasting an “apple” etc. Just because these particular seeing, tasting,… have appeared together in the past they are grouped together as an “apple” experience. What makes the “object apple” inherently existing? At which point will it stop being an object/apple? What makes an apple an “apple”? We have green, red, yellow “apples” so obviously is not the red colour that makes an apple exist on its own, right? We have a lot of other sweet and sour fruits so it’s not the taste, right? We have a lot of other objects that feel the same way, so it can’t be the sensation, right? So what is it then? Do you see where I’m going with this? If it is the right combination of specific senses that makes an object ”apple” exist, does it exist on its own and the senses just describe the object or it’s the other way around- we have the 5 specific senses and thought groups them and "creates" an object? Can an "object" then be in general a LABEL for a specific combination of any of the five senses?

Let’s explore seeing a bit more so you can get an idea where I'm going with this:
Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you. Is that screen separate somehow of seeing? Is the screen outside of seeing? Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things - where does seeing ends and the seen (the screen) begin? Is there a place where the seeing (DE), is coming from, or seeing (DE) is all that there is? Is there a point of view (seer)? Is there a need for a seer? Be honest in your observations...

Seeing the book: seeing colors and shapes
Smelling the book: simple smelling in the nose
Feeling the book: slightly cool to touch with sharp edges around
Tasting the book: simply taste in the mouth
Hearing the book: the sound of pages being moved back and forth
Thought about reading the book: simply thoughts happening and passing by.

Almost what I wanted. If you notice, your descriptions still contain other labels (thought content) besides the DE labels. In DE we just have seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling, and thinking (not its content). Your examples should be like that:

Seeing the colours and shapes in the cover of the book, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling the book with my nose, simply= smell (smelling)
Feeling the book with its slightly cool touch with sharp edges around, simply= sensation (feeling)
Hearing the sound of pages being moved back and forth, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about reading the book, simply = thought (thinking)

Please give me a couple more examples like that
Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Rali,

Just letting you know that I’m working on the inquiry as I can while running busy with my work. I will post it soon. Didn’t want you to wander what happened. Thank you!

Best,

Yuri

[poppyseed]

Thank you so much for letting me know, Yuri! Looking forward to hearing from you!
Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Rali,

I have done partial inquiry as I can with my available time. I will be working on the rest and post them in increments like this. This’s dense stuff and my mind is breaking down.

Direct experience can be likened to an abstract painting and if you look at an abstract painting you start to see shapes etc within the painting itself. Those shapes aren’t really there – they are “created” by the nuances/patterns of colour - but they SEEM (appear) to be. So from that perspective...do the shapes really exist?

Shapes in the abstract paintings don’t exist when I look from that perspective. But right now, the shapes appear and they’re there on the screen that’s looking at me. I’m (the mind) having difficulty to accept that shapes don’t exist but they’re appearing experience at this moment.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

I definitely see where you’re pointing at. tasting variety of flavor create illusion of meal. Thinking words create illusion of thoughts? But the colors, songs, meal, and thoughts don’t really exist. They’re just translation of experience of the sensations. I feel like you’re breaking me hehe…

Here is a video that also illustrates this. See how thought is struggling to label the experience with unfamiliar "shapes":

Oh absolutely agreed! Watched the video last night and definitely was captivated by the colors, shapes, actions, and patterns of the what’s going on in the video. The mind was definitely trying to understand and give it meaning and story.

Just because these particular seeing, tasting,… have appeared together in the past they are grouped together as an “apple” experience. What makes the “object apple” inherently existing? At which point will it stop being an object/apple? What makes an apple an “apple”?

Hmm… feels like the inherent existence of apple object is made up of beliefs. Because it happened before, there’s a belief that Apple exist. However, when I look what’s under that belief with your pointing and guiding, it’s pretty much empty and just words and labels. There’s no point to stop being an apple object because there’s no such thing really exist. It’s the combination of all the sensation that makes an apple an apple.

Best,

Yuri

[Yuri4Nothing]

We have green, red, yellow “apples” so obviously is not the red colour that makes an apple exist on its own, right? We have a lot of other sweet and sour fruits so it’s not the taste, right? We have a lot of other objects that feel the same way, so it can’t be the sensation, right? So what is it then? Do you see where I’m going with this?

I honestly don’t know what to say. It feels correct when you break it down like this and I see that senses doesn’t make an apple an apple either. I want to say that “mere experiencing” but that’s not true either.

If it is the right combination of specific senses that makes an object ”apple” exist, does it exist on its own and the senses just describe the object

Hmmm… I want to say no because there’s no right combination of senses since they’re spontaneous and happening on its own. If I had the right combination of senses, then I assume Apple must appear physically right front of me. No one can decide what makes a right combination of senses in order for the Apple to exist. So O really don’t know and hitting the wall again.

or it’s the other way around- we have the 5 specific senses and thought groups them and "creates" an object?

This feels like a possible answer to my mind.

Can an "object" then be in general a LABEL for a specific combination of any of the five senses?

Oh my, yes, that’s sounds right and clever. Wow, I just had a random giggle and heart racing when I read and really feel into this last question. It’s bizarre to realize that five senses and thoughts create everything. Like a magic. I honestly don’t know what I’m talking about anymore hehe

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

You are doing great! :)

May I just clarify something here:

But the colors, songs, meal, and thoughts don’t really exist. They’re just translation of experience of the sensations. I feel like you’re breaking me hehe…

It’s the combination of all the sensation that makes an apple an apple.

I'm really happy with your answer, but I want to clarify something. Here, at LU, we use certain labels when it comes to DE. I noticed that you use “sensation” as a summary for experience/what IS/THIS. Here, we use “sensations” just for “feeling” (one of the senses), as in : “the ability to feel something physically, especially by touching, or a physical feeling that results from this ability”. I have to be pedantic, as the meaning of language is not intrinsic, but a result of conditioning, an agreed upon meaning. There are a lot of people who read the threads and it could be confusing. This is why we give the DE labels in the beginning, so there is a common understanding. Please stick to using “sensations” only when you are referring to feeling. Otherwise use "senses output", "experience", "what IS", or just "THIS" :)

Awaiting the rest of your reply!

Love
Rali

[Yuri4Nothing]

Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you.

1. Is that screen separate somehow of seeing?
2. Is the screen outside of seeing?
3. Is seeing the screen and the screen two separate things - where does seeing ends and the seen (the screen) begin?
4. Is there a place where the seeing (DE), is coming from, or seeing (DE) is all that there is?
5. Is there a point of view (seer)? Is there a need for a seer? Be honest in your observations...

I’m looking at my phone in front of me right now.

1. The phone screen is physically separate from my seeing which is coming from the eyes. There’s a distance between the phone screen and the eyes so that it makes it feel like they’re separate.
2. I want to say no because seeing doesn’t feel like it has outside or inside. There’s no knowledge or reference to check if my seeing has outside or inside. Investigating this inquiry feels so abstract, silly yet so challenging. When I close my eyes, there’s mental knowing that there’s screen in my hand and my hands are feeling the surface of it. Although the eyes don’t see the screen, there’s visual image of phone screen popping up. Hmm… after a while staying in this question, the seeing becoming the screen and they’re infusing together.
3. Now my experience is shifted a bit from the experience that I had with the first question. After investigating and staying in the question, seeing the screen and screen feels one, like there was no separation and distance in the first place. I guess there’s no ending to the seeing and no beginning to the seen since the seeing and the seen is in oneness and that oneness is happening. It’s like the seeing is just seeing itself?
4. There’s no specific place in my DE where the seeing coming from. It feels like seeing is all there is. No inside, outside, distance, and separation to be found in my DE right now in this inquiry.
5. I can’t tell if there’s a point of view or not of the seer. I don’t really understand the question and don’t know how to investigate this. The view is just there whether there’s a seer or not. Seeing is just seeing the view that’s everlasting whether there’s seer is here or not. So no seer is not needed.

Please stick to using “sensations” only when you are referring to feeling.

Absolutely! My mistake using “sensations” for all the senses. I didn’t realize it and thank you so much for pointing that out. I will strictly use it when referring to feeling.

I will be posting the rest of the inquiry as the time allows. Thank you for your patience. Also English is my second language and I apologize for the grammar and content of my writing. If there’s something that’s doesn’t make sense in terms of my writing, just clarify like you’ve been doing already 🙂

[poppyseed]

Hi Yuri

Absolutely! My mistake using “sensations” for all the senses. I didn’t realize it and thank you so much for pointing that out. I will strictly use it when referring to feeling.

I will be posting the rest of the inquiry as the time allows. Thank you for your patience. Also English is my second language and I apologize for the grammar and content of my writing. If there’s something that’s doesn’t make sense in terms of my writing, just clarify like you’ve been doing already 🙂

Thank you for obliging me! Your use of the word is correct but we are using it here only in that meaning (i.e., feeling).
English is also my second language, so no worries. I’m Bulgarian but I’ve been living in South Africa for the last 25 years :).

5. I can’t tell if there’s a point of view or not of the seer. I don’t really understand the question and don’t know how to investigate this. The view is just there whether there’s a seer or not. Seeing is just seeing the view that’s everlasting whether there’s seer is here or not. So no seer is not needed.

Exactly! We’ll be doing a lot of these exercises where we are assessing if there are real doer, thinker, seer, listener, experiencer, etc. It might seem abstract, but abstract is the opposite of usual/habit. The point is to not leave a stone unturned so thoughts/perceptions can adjust themselves ;)

1. The phone screen is physically separate from my seeing which is coming from the eyes. There’s a distance between the phone screen and the eyes so that it makes it feel like they’re separate.

Let’s do another exercise/looking at seer/seeing/seen so it becomes easier…
The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body, as a separate item, is responsible for or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel', etc.

Close your eyes.
With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
3) Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Yuri, a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

2. I want to say no because seeing doesn’t feel like it has outside or inside. There’s no knowledge or reference to check if my seeing has outside or inside. Investigating this inquiry feels so abstract, silly yet so challenging. When I close my eyes, there’s mental knowing that there’s screen in my hand and my hands are feeling the surface of it. Although the eyes don’t see the screen, there’s visual image of phone screen popping up. Hmm… after a while staying in this question, the seeing becoming the screen and they’re infusing together.

Continuing with the previous exercise, can you find a boundary that seeing crosses in order for the “blackness” to be seen? Where does seeing of “blackness” (seeing) ends and the “blackness” (the seen) begins? Is there a border between the two? You can try this with eyes open with your screen again. Do you see a border/ a boundary that the seeing crosses in order to see the screen ? If it is seen inside or outside, where is the border where the image crosses over from being outside to being inside of you? What does the border consist of?
Awaiting your breakdowns of daily activities (the cup of coffee example in green)… Just a couple is enough for this time. It’s a good exercise to do throughout the day on a regular basis just to get the looking going, make it a habit. I would want one example with each reply from now on – just one line would be enough for future replies :)
So on the one side we have what thought says it's happening, and on the other - the DE:
Looking through my window at the bright wet grass, simply = color/seeing

[Elad]

Hi Yuri,

Lets start with these questions:

1) At this point, what are your hopes and expectations for this inquiry?

The deeper you dig in and uncover these, the better off we are.


2) When you right now read the following sentence "there is no separate self in control of thoughts and actions, there never was and never will be" what happens inside in terms of thoughts, feelings and sensations?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better off we are. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen now.

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Elad,

1) At this point, what are your hopes and expectations for this inquiry?

At this point right now when I feel into this inquiry, my hope is to uncover, see the root, and dissolve my belief that says “I have no boundary setting skill and in order to compensate that either I do people please or disappear.” My expectation is you to help me to see the root of it and whether it’s worth looking at it or not.

2) When you right now read the following sentence "there is no separate self in control of thoughts and actions, there never was and never will be" what happens inside in terms of thoughts, feelings and sensations?

In terms of thoughts: it says “Thank god there was never me who was in control of thoughts and actions” and also “Yeah, I knew that and why am I keep forgetting that” and also “Then what is point of all of this if I am never will be in control of anything ever.”

In terms of feelings: there’s a huge relief that feels so spacious and vast. It feels like empty substance inside and outside that is bringing a kind of emotional yet humorous feeling like I want to laugh-cry at so called beliefs “my struggles.”

In terms of sensations: suddenly so aware of my cold feet, mild tension headache in the temples, slight gut quizziness, thoughts slowing down, clear hearing of my surrounding environment such as dog breathing, airplane noise, computer typing, heating vent etc. looking at the phone screen that’s in my hands feels so real like it’s unbelievable. Like what am I looking, doing, writing, at all? And why I can’t see my face but I can see my hands and arms?

[Elad]

Great stuff Yuri, the process is unfolding.

1) At this point, what are your hopes and expectations for this inquiry?

At this point right now when I feel into this inquiry, my hope is to uncover, see the root, and dissolve my belief that says “I have no boundary setting skill and in order to compensate that either I do people please or disappear.” My expectation is you to help me to see the root of it and whether it’s worth looking at it or not.

There is no independent, separate, enduring you that has a problem with bounderies, and so either dissapear or please (and of course both do not bring real satisfaction, and in both you stay alone inside, conventionally speaking).

However, from what you told me it does seem like unconscious emotional conflict and anxiety around boudery setting and certain kinds of intimacy is an issue "for you" on the conventional psychological level, and that two of your defense mechanisms is to please and to disappear. Defenses serve a purpose, like reducing anxiety and internal conflict and such, but come with a price of less real autonomy, less real intimacy, less contentment. This is all on the psychology level or as they like to say in spirituality circles, on the shadow work level.

Seeing through self might help with that, because you see there is no you that is truly controlling and choosing this pattern, and seeing that, might actually help to relax more with it, and be available to discover old repressed feelings underneath that drive it, and courage for more direct vulnerable communication. For most if not all of us, alongside this kind of inquiry work, we also need psychological/shadow work.

2) When you right now read the following sentence "there is no separate self in control of thoughts and actions, there never was and never will be" what happens inside in terms of thoughts, feelings and sensations?

In terms of thoughts: it says “Thank god there was never me who was in control of thoughts and actions” and also “Yeah, I knew that and why am I keep forgetting that” and also “Then what is point of all of this if I am never will be in control of anything ever.”

Lovely with the relief - you are quite close, you can sense the release of impossible expectations based in illusion.

As for "what is the point" - if we believe in "no self" rather than *realize* it, it might lead to nihilism. However, realizing it, nothing of what is constructive and wholesome and heartful disappears. We might go through periods of confusion and questioning as pleasing and defensive ways of functioning drop, and it is learned to function from what truly feels wholesome. It is a natural process.

In terms of feelings: there’s a huge relief that feels so spacious and vast. It feels like empty substance inside and outside that is bringing a kind of emotional yet humorous feeling like I want to laugh-cry at so called beliefs “my struggles.”

In terms of sensations: suddenly so aware of my cold feet, mild tension headache in the temples, slight gut quizziness, thoughts slowing down, clear hearing of my surrounding environment such as dog breathing, airplane noise, computer typing, heating vent etc. looking at the phone screen that’s in my hands feels so real like it’s unbelievable. Like what am I looking, doing, writing, at all? And why I can’t see my face but I can see my hands and arms?

Wonderful. You are close.



1) Now really really look: All the thoughts about me and what I am, what are they really referring to?

Is there anything in direct experience that they are refering to?

Or rather, the thoughts-actions-feelings are all just one natural expression unfolding of the whole, of mystery?


Another way to look at the same:

2) Can you control thoughts?

Can you control movements?

Can you control feelings?

Can you control attention?


Check each one separate.

3) Or does direct experience reveal that all these happen spontaneously without control, just one mysterious whole?

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Elad,

Thank you for responding to the “boundary setting skill belief.” You’re right about my learned defense mechanism either “to please or to disappear” is indeed a shadow work that was rooted in my childhood upbringing. The little kid Yuri was always so afraid to cause violent anger, shouting, and fighting in that dysfunctional chaotic household. It’s feels so daunting to dig into this giant mountain of shadow work, but it’s the starting point.

1) Now really really look: All the thoughts about me and what I am, what are they really referring to?

Hmm… it feels like all the thoughts about me and what I am referring to just one moment. The moment dies or flows away as soon as it is noticed. It is just like the ocean waves. All the thoughts about me a d what I am merge and tense up together and feels like it’s going to snatch this body into the deep water or thought spiral that feels scary. But when that moment is noticed, it’s finished already, and the body is still here, feeling ok safe. So all the thoughts about me and what I am seems like this empty spoof that is made up of nothing real or substantial but this empty spoof has this big advertisement with so much noise and drama.

Is there anything in direct experience that they are refering to?

No, they’re not referring to anything in my DE right now. Thoughts about me and what I am is simply just a thought (thinking sense).

Or rather, the thoughts-actions-feelings are all just one natural expression unfolding of the whole, of mystery?

Yes, exactly it feels like that! It’s so mysterious, interesting, and wonderful to experience that one wholesome natural expression to unfold and to see what is being revealed and letting go.

Another way to look at the same:

2) Can you control thoughts?

Can you control movements?

Can you control feelings?

Can you control attention?


Check each one separate.

No, I can’t control these thoughts. I closely eyes and said “I can control thoughts’ for only like 20 seconds then another thought popped up and said “you know what, you should really set timer so you can see how long you can control your thoughts” and then soon after another thought came up “see you can’t control your thought, there’s already another thought there came without your control” and the then “okay, this is silly to experiment like that, you knew you can’t control thoughts so why are you even trying.”

Dang, I haven’t really looked into “can I control movement?” At first it seems like I can control my movements such as I’m going to get up and get coffee or take the dogs for walk. However, in between those actions, I noticed there countless number of movements of limbs, face, eyes, breath, and the whole body moves without “my autonomy.” So no, I can’t control movement.

I definitely cannot control feelings. This one I am not even arguing.

No, I can’t control attention either. All the six senses are doing their own thing without “me” doing anything. Attention travels and jumps at randomness throughout this body being. Like head moves to look out the window to see tree and notice the color green then attention jumps into the ears and hearing airplane noise, then attention goes back into the device to type etc..

3) Or does direct experience reveal that all these happen spontaneously without control, just one mysterious whole?

Bingo! It is exactly that!

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

Thank you for responding to the “boundary setting skill belief.” You’re right about my learned defense mechanism either “to please or to disappear” is indeed a shadow work that was rooted in my childhood upbringing. The little kid Yuri was always so afraid to cause violent anger, shouting, and fighting in that dysfunctional chaotic household. It’s feels so daunting to dig into this giant mountain of shadow work, but it’s the starting point.

Beautiful, exactly so.

1) Now really really look: All the thoughts about me and what I am, what are they really referring to?

Hmm… it feels like all the thoughts about me and what I am referring to just one moment. The moment dies or flows away as soon as it is noticed. It is just like the ocean waves. All the thoughts about me a d what I am merge and tense up together and feels like it’s going to snatch this body into the deep water or thought spiral that feels scary. But when that moment is noticed, it’s finished already, and the body is still here, feeling ok safe. So all the thoughts about me and what I am seems like this empty spoof that is made up of nothing real or substantial but this empty spoof has this big advertisement with so much noise and drama.

Is there anything in direct experience that they are refering to?

Right so it seems like there is pretty strong experiential sense all ready that there is in fact no separate self or doer...

Even "it feels like all the thoughts about me and what I am referring to just one moment"... How exactly are they reffering to a moment? Aren't they just thought being believed causing sensations, referring nothing palpable at all?

No, they’re not referring to anything in my DE right now. Thoughts about me and what I am is simply just a thought (thinking sense).

Exactly.

Or rather, the thoughts-actions-feelings are all just one natural expression unfolding of the whole, of mystery?

Yes, exactly it feels like that! It’s so mysterious, interesting, and wonderful to experience that one wholesome natural expression to unfold and to see what is being revealed and letting go.

Beautiful! Seeing is happening!

Another way to look at the same:

2) Can you control thoughts?

Can you control movements?

Can you control feelings?

Can you control attention?


Check each one separate.

No, I can’t control these thoughts. I closely eyes and said “I can control thoughts’ for only like 20 seconds then another thought popped up and said “you know what, you should really set timer so you can see how long you can control your thoughts” and then soon after another thought came up “see you can’t control your thought, there’s already another thought there came without your control” and the then “okay, this is silly to experiment like that, you knew you can’t control thoughts so why are you even trying.”

Dang, I haven’t really looked into “can I control movement?” At first it seems like I can control my movements such as I’m going to get up and get coffee or take the dogs for walk. However, in between those actions, I noticed there countless number of movements of limbs, face, eyes, breath, and the whole body moves without “my autonomy.” So no, I can’t control movement.

I definitely cannot control feelings. This one I am not even arguing.

No, I can’t control attention either. All the six senses are doing their own thing without “me” doing anything. Attention travels and jumps at randomness throughout this body being. Like head moves to look out the window to see tree and notice the color green then attention jumps into the ears and hearing airplane noise, then attention goes back into the device to type etc..

3) Or does direct experience reveal that all these happen spontaneously without control, just one mysterious whole?

Bingo! It is exactly that!

Super clear!


So: There is no separate self, never was. Is it true beyond reasonable doubt? If not what is the reasonable doubt about?



Also look at these in direct experience:


What is responsibilty?

What is choice?

The crux is not to analyze it, but to ask and look in direct experience, as it is and unfolds by itself.

[Yuri4Nothing]

Hi Elad,

Thank you for your response and patience in my slow process!

Even "it feels like all the thoughts about me and what I am referring to just one moment"... How exactly are they reffering to a moment? Aren't they just thought being believed causing sensations, referring nothing palpable at all?

Yes, just a thought appears and causes sensation in the body and it passes. There’s nothing palpable about the thought at all like you pointed out.

So: There is no separate self, never was. Is it true beyond reasonable doubt? If not what is the reasonable doubt about?

Don’t know how to answer the question. Words aren’t super clear to describe the sensations in the body being right now. When I feel into the question, it feels like “I” am dropping into multiple layers of investigation and inquiry.

Is no separate self true beyond reasonable doubt?

The mind is saying “Of course, it’s true. Remember experiencing no self when you inquire and meditate. But that’s a thought memory, not happening right now here.”

Then when I close my eyes and stay in the body senses, the senses happening on their own and there’s just hearing, tasting, seeing, smelling, and feeling. The body senses in the direct experience cannot find a separate self.

Then there’s doubt. Doubt is asking so many questions to make the body DE above a questionable and causing hesitation in the mind about direct body experience. As deep slow breathing happens, the doubt softens then passing away.

Now back into the direct body experience, things are happening spontaneously and body senses flowing and orchestrating on their own in tune with reality.

Also look at these in direct experience:
What is responsibilty?

Huh… funny. Responsibility is a thought sense in the DE. There’s nothing, nobody, and no evidence can be found as “ responsibility’ in my DE.

What is choice?

Same as responsibility, it’s also just another thought sense in my DE. Choice is a belief in the mind, like a magician’s optical illusion in the mirror. When the mirror pulls out, there’s no magic, just make a belief happening. I sense isn’t finding or making choices in my DE right now. Reality happening spontaneously on it’s own and there’s no one found to be responsible for this and no one found to be making choices.