Will Look Until Lost or Found

[graceabounds]

Hello,

What a gift this headache is!
One last question, if it is still present to be inquired of…
Is there resistance anywhere regarding the idea of headache or sensations labeled headache?

I had a related realisation about speaking a while ago. We tend to say "I said" as if we are the author of the words that come out of our mouths but that isn't the experience at all. When in conversation we don't sit in a back room in our head, weigh out words and sentences, arrange them like someone in a print shop laying out letters on a printing press, then push the words out our mouths to deliver them to the other person. We seem more like witnesses to what we say in a conversation than we are authors of what we say in a conversation.

Nice noticing here.
Is it the same with respect to moving the body?

It strikes me that thoughts and thinking are similar. I seem to be witnessing thoughts, not "doing" them.

Are YOU the witness of thoughts and experience?
Is there an ‘I’ witnessing?
Or is witnessing too just happening, done by no one?

-Becca

[Stultus]

One last question, if it is still present to be inquired of…
Is there resistance anywhere regarding the idea of headache or sensations labeled headache?

I wasn't really sure what was meant by "resistance" or how I would gauge that. I do still have the headache, so closed my eyes and my attention turned to the the pain sensation I felt in my head. Interestingly, the experience of pain kind of bleached out. I could feel a pressure of sorts, but not pain. The pain came back once I opened my eyes and turned to typing this. But very interesting. I will return to this line of inquiry if the opportunity arises again. And, as I am soon off to bed, I will look at this as I lie awaiting sleep.

Is it the same with respect to moving the body?

Yes, actually, I experienced this when I was last doing the exercise. I felt an itch at my temple and my hand rose and scratched it. I was witnessing the movement of the hand and arm the same as I was witnessing the itch and other sensations.

Are YOU the witness of thoughts and experience?
Is there an ‘I’ witnessing?
Or is witnessing too just happening, done by no one?

If pressed, I would have to say witnessing is just happening. it doesn't involve a me "doing" anything, in the same way perceiving sound just happens. I am finding it very difficult to express accurately what I experience. There seem to be habits of language that distort it. I write, "I felt an itch at my temple" but to be hyper-accurate there really is no sense of "I" with the itch, nor "my" or even "temple". Perhaps pointing would be closer to the truth - "Itch there" and pointing would be more accurate. And "I write", too, would be better expressed as (pointing) "writing this there".

[graceabounds]

Yes, actually, I experienced this when I was last doing the exercise. I felt an itch at my temple and my hand rose and scratched it. I was witnessing the movement of the hand and arm the same as I was witnessing the itch and other sensations.

Ah, so no do-er here either?

I am finding it very difficult to express accurately what I experience. There seem to be habits of language that distort it. I write, "I felt an itch at my temple" but to be hyper-accurate there really is no sense of "I" with the itch, nor "my" or even "temple". Perhaps pointing would be closer to the truth - "Itch there" and pointing would be more accurate. And "I write", too, would be better expressed as (pointing) "writing this there".

Let's develop this a bit. Try to go through the rest of the day just dropping the construct of I from internal languaging. So 'I am walking' becomes simply 'walking' etc. If it feels natural, as it seems to be from your description, to also drop the labels from objects, explore that too. 'I am drinking this cup of coffee' may be 'tasting' or 'HOT!'
Is anything lost?
What emerges?

-Becca

[Stultus]

Try to go through the rest of the day just dropping the construct of I from internal languaging...
Is anything lost?
What emerges?

I was able to accomplish this for stretches of time today, but frequently fell into forgetfulness then would wake back into doing it sometime later. Simple tasks were easy - taking a shower, getting dressed, walking - there was often no internal dialog and no labelling going on that I was aware of. In retrospect there must be concepts happening at some level. else you would think that there would be no sense, for example, that socks go on one's feet - but I witnessed hands pulling socks on those feet without any internal dialog or thinking "socks, 'feet", etc. With more complex tasks, for example if I encountered printed words, then some thoughts might arise, usually followed by some train of thoughts until I looked away. Having to locate a bus stop prompted decision making, but curiously there was no internal dialog, it felt more like shifts in focus and action. Writing this, memories pop up like glimpses of a film, then I hear words internally as fingers type this out.
It does seem like there is something guiding my attention. It seems contradictory to "try... dropping the construct of I" when it seems something is doing the trying, something is catching itself being inattentive and then going back on track, etc.
Even reporting "I was able to accomplish this for stretches of time today" or "no internal dialog and no labelling going on that I could perceive" is languaging an I. I'm at a bit of a loss reporting results without it. Something seems to be doing something with these exercises.
"I" will continue this exercise tomorrow, see if I can see around this.

[graceabounds]

Yes, take a bit more time with this. The aim is not to be perfect, just to notice as much as possible what is happening in the experience vs the thought about experience.

It does seem like there is something guiding my attention.

This is where to focus as you go today.
What/where is this something? Or someone?

-Becca

[Stultus]

What/where is this something? Or someone?

With focus, it is weirdly like watching a movie but from a first person perspective but also privy to witnessing thoughts arise. which is like occasionally hearing internal dialog or catching a visual of memory or conjecture/imagination.
Though the experience seems centred (in the location of the body), there does not seem to be an actual centre or doer - it is like watching a doer, or watching something that has intention.
The thought arises typing this that this apparent absence could be an illusion. I can't (without resorting to mirrors) see the back of my head either, though that doesn't mean it isn't there. Which is to say perhaps self-perception is limited by our means of perception - having such a blind spot wouldn't be the same as an absence of self.
There is a sense of detachment that seems to arise with this sort of inquiry. The thought arises that perhaps I am tricking myself into some sort of disassociation.
I seem to experience no self yet everything continues as before, including the rising of sceptical thoughts of this nature.
What is this "I" that looks, that intends to look and then does so?
Even this I can experience as watching someone trying to solve a puzzle in a movie.
If this experience is just a stream that runs by without my involvement, why am I tethered so to it? Why can't I turn from this movie to another? Whatever "I" am seems to have some sort of connection or investment in this, regardless of how impersonal or detached I might experience it. If no self, why do I experience this and not something else?

[graceabounds]

:)

What is here that is not a thought?

[Stultus]

What is here that is not a thought?

:)
I agree. It is all thoughts. Thinking that, or acknowledging that in thought, does not seem to make much difference.
I will sit on that, see what develops.

[graceabounds]

Explore relative to what is noticed in the gap between thoughts.
Is there I without a thought?

[Stultus]

Is there I without a thought?

There does seem to be"being' without a thought. In the gaps between thoughts there is awareness of sound, feel, taste, etc.
With focus and extended attention, there even appear occasional gaps in that, a sudden awareness of expansive nothingness.
The nothingness is not even black. :)
It seems to last just a moment then all the sensory stuff pops back in.
So my sense is that there is beingness even without detectable thought or sensory input. And that beingness can even "turn away" from thought and sensory input (at least momentarily).
The beingness does not appear to be the self as I usually think of self. It seems independent of thought and senses (as I said) but also I think independent of anything I would attribute to a self (personality, history) as those things definitely feel to reduce to only thoughts.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

:)

Is the beingness everpresent? Does it exist while thoughts are happening?

-Becca

[Stultus]

Is the beingness everpresent? Does it exist while thoughts are happening?

It is hard to describe this. Yes, it feels present when thoughts are happening, but it is like it is sometimes aware of itself *and* the thoughts, or often, if I am less vigilant, it seems consumed by the thoughts (and sensations), though it can be recognised in the background as soon as I regain focus.
It is easy to lose focus of the beingness, to be distracted.
Regarding whether it is "everpresent", it feels so when I am looking, like it is a permanent aspect that is easy to overlook because it seems everpresent, but there are gaps about which in retrospect I can't speak with any certainty. The beingness definitely doesn't feel "everpresent" when I look back on a night's sleep. I and it seem absent for the passage of much of the time through the night. But now the thought arises that I don't know what there might be to remember about sleep if there is no thought or sensation and no sense of the passage of time.

[graceabounds]

Hello,

It is hard to describe this. Yes, it feels present when thoughts are happening, but it is like it is sometimes aware of itself *and* the thoughts, or often, if I am less vigilant, it seems consumed by the thoughts (and sensations), though it can be recognised in the background as soon as I regain focus.

If who is less vigilant? Can a focuser be found?

It is easy to lose focus of the beingness, to be distracted.

Curious if there is an ability to relax into the beingness. Rather than looking at it, look from it in other words.
Can the perspective shift to foreground so that thoughts and sensations arise within it?

But now the thought arises that I don't know what there might be to remember about sleep if there is no thought or sensation and no sense of the passage of time.

Is there anything lacking in the absence of thoughts or sensations?

And is there time in direct experience? Or only thoughts about past or future happening now?


Keep going!
-Becca

[Stultus]

Thank you, Becca.

Can the perspective shift to foreground so that thoughts and sensations arise within it?

Yes, this is kind of how it feels when I am aware of both the beingness and thoughts and sensations. It is like the thoughts and sensations emerge within and are encapsuled in the beingness.

Is there anything lacking in the absence of thoughts or sensations?

When I experience a moment of no thought and no perception when awake, I still have an awareness of being aware.
There is no sense of lack, and I guess if any thought of lack arose, it would just be a thought.
When I sleep, the thoughts and sensations seem to stop, but I don't seem to have an awareness of being aware - at least for any length of time. But you make a good point - without thought or sensation, is there even an experience of time?

And is there time in direct experience? Or only thoughts about past or future happening now?

I am very vividly feeling this today, the sense of all experience being only experience of now and any thought regarding past or future are just that - present in the now thoughts. In typing I hear myself internally dictating what hands type, thoughts raise memories which I weigh and report.
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Very nice.

I am very vividly feeling this today, the sense of all experience being only experience of now and any thought regarding past or future are just that - present in the now thoughts.

Exactly. Past is the content of a thought happening now. Future is the content of a thought happening now. And even ‘having been asleep’ is the content of a thought happening now.

is like the thoughts and sensations emerge within and are encapsuled in the beingness.

Marinate in that beingness for a while.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?

-Becca