Recognizing my non-dual nature

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

I am starting to really enjoy this investigation. Not sure yet where it is leading to, but I am trying not to focus on that too much.

Write the word "ME" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

No that word is clearly not me

Speak the word “ME” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

No because I existed before these reactions in body and mind arose

Now say the word “ME” aloud. Is that sound YOU?

No, this is just the sound of my voice saying the word ME

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought "ME" who or what your are?”

No they seem to be arising together or at least in relation to eachother, but something is observing all of this, so what I am observing can't be me.

Is the thought, "I exist" who or what you are?

No this is just a thought, it is part of my experience

What happens when you remove the label "I exist" ?

I am just looking into the room (or better there is seeing), there are senses, there are sounds, furthermore it becomes a bit more quite, peaceful, but at the same time a little bit scary, like its a bit too silent

What's left?

Just Direct experience, nothing more. Everything is starting to fall away no more and more easily. I guess all I can do is keep on looking untill I fully surrender. Although I notice it is quite easy to overlook the subleties of thoughts and the attachment to them that is still at play.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?
hmmm the thought friend brings up a different image than the thought stranger. So contentwise it is a little bit different. Perhaps in the sensations that are related as well.

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

It is just different content, nothing more. So the image, the subvocal voice and the story that might follow each thought is different. Other than that they are both just thoughts.

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character?"
Notice any sensations arising, allow them to be without labelling and return to the thought inquiry.
Let me know what is found.

It is exactly the same as with stranger and friend. The only difference is the image that accompanies them, the sensations related to it and the story that might follow. But in essence both 'me' and 'friend' are thoughts.
There is nothing special about the thought with the 'me-character". The only thing with this thought is that I am programmed to fall more easily into a storyline and notice a combination of the thought with related sensations, through which this this 'me' thought more easily drags me into a stream of thoughts. I am just letting the labels be for what they are, I am kinda starting to enjoy noticing the sensations. Both friend and me are exactly the same, friend is just a thought, stranger is just a thought, I am just a thought. Is that it? I am just a thought? hahahah. All the content of thoughts is just thoughts, there is nothing more to them. Still I notice the inclination of me (I don't know what I am, but I have to use a word) to want to grab hold of thoughts and the storyline attached to it. How do I break this attachment (it almost feels like an addiction to thoughts) to the content of thougths. I know I can't stop thoughts from coming, as they come all on their own. But how do I break the spell of being captured by them? Because a thought is just a thought, they really aren't that interesting or special as they have always appeared to be.

Thank you in advance for the help Rowena, I feel I am on the right track here.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hello Thomas,

I am so happy that you are enjoying the investigation!

Speak the word “ME” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

No because I existed before these reactions in body and mind arose

This answer is not from DE, the word 'because' immediately points to some justification or description or analysis etc.
Can you see this?
"I existed" How can you know anything that is in the past other than by a memory or thought??


What happens when you remove the label "I exist" ?

I am just looking into the room (or better there is seeing), there are senses, there are sounds, furthermore it becomes a bit more quite, peaceful, but at the same time a little bit scary, like its a bit too silent

Good. senses, sounds, visual field too ..... and sensation (with overlay of labels quiet, peaceful and a little bit scary and thought content: it's a bit too silent). It is normal for there to be some reaction with body sensations. The 'mind' part of the nervous system is a labelling mechanism, always wanting to put everything in its place, that's just what it does.


What's left?

Just Direct experience, nothing more. Everything is starting to fall away no more and more easily. I guess all I can do is keep on looking untill I fully surrender. Although I notice it is quite easy to overlook the subleties of thoughts and the attachment to them that is still at play.

This is great, and there's more to look into here....
What's no longer in DE? = Thoughts about looking until "I" fully surrender.

So there is an expectation (thought/belief) that this illusory, separate, autonomous and independent "I" that never was, will one day surrender. And if it can do that it will get something!
If this "I" can actually make choices and take actions, then why does it not surrender now?!?

Please complete the following sentence: Once I fully surrender I will...............................................
Please write down the first things that come to mind. Don't overthink!

There is nothing special about the thought with the 'me-character". The only thing with this thought is that I am programmed to fall more easily into a storyline and notice a combination of the thought with related sensations, through which this this 'me' thought more easily drags me into a stream of thoughts. I am just letting the labels be for what they are, I am kinda starting to enjoy noticing the sensations. Both friend and me are exactly the same, friend is just a thought, stranger is just a thought, I am just a thought. Is that it? I am just a thought? hahahah. All the content of thoughts is just thoughts, there is nothing more to them.

Yes! All the content of thoughts is just thoughts, all made up!

Still I notice the inclination of me (I don't know what I am, but I have to use a word) to want to grab hold of thoughts and the storyline attached to it. How do I break this attachment (it almost feels like an addiction to thoughts) to the content of thougths.

Remember, the mind is geared up as a survival mechanism. It seeks the familiar for a feeling of safety and security. This inquiry is hacking into old habit patterns, playful and gentle inquiry will allow the mechanism to reset, it just takes time.

How does it feel in the body when you say or think "How do I break this attachment?" Contracted or Expansive?
What's actually going on in your direct experience?

I know I can't stop thoughts from coming, as they come all on their own. But how do I break the spell of being captured by them? Because a thought is just a thought, they really aren't that interesting or special as they have always appeared to be.

Exactly, thoughts just arise. Mostly you just lose your attachment to them and let them fly by. I mean - you don't grab each snowflake, do you? And if you did, they would just melt. So it is with thought - especially when you question them and LOOK directly at only Actual Experience.
And sometimes strong body sensations arise in response to a thought. Usually this is when a belief has been triggered.
Breaking the spell is a constant, on-going process of LOOKING and FEELING.
Keep being curious, it can become more and more fascinating.
Every thought, including the "I" thought is a pointer and an invitation to look closer.

Until now, I have been pointing you to return to your direct experience and to ignore the content of thought, and I think that you are getting a really good handle on that.

Thought content, especially repetitive patterns of thinking, can also be looked into. Maybe there are judgmental thoughts (that seem to be coming from the voice of an inner critic.) The body/mind/nervous system has many protective and defensive programs running for its survival and this is where the on-going spells lie. Since every thought is a pointer and an invitation to look closer or deeper into what is actually happening, especially in body sensation.

Do you have any repetitive thought loops that you would like to explore?

In the mean time:

PALM FLIPPING EXERCISE
1. Hold a hand in front of you (any hand); palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and EACH TIME inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How or where is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

- Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

This answer is not from DE, the word 'because' immediately points to some justification or description or analysis etc.
Can you see this?
"I existed" How can you know anything that is in the past other than by a memory or thought??

Hmm yes I understand what you mean, it is more a conceptual or philosophical understanding. And anything recalled from the past is not DE. From DE experience I can only say that it is not me, as I see it arising and going as a thought. Something is aware of this coming and going of the thought 'me'.

So there is an expectation (thought/belief) that this illusory, separate, autonomous and independent "I" that never was, will one day surrender. And if it can do that it will get something!
If this "I" can actually make choices and take actions, then why does it not surrender now?!?

This is such a good point. There is no self, there is no future, so there is also no self that can surrender to anything in the future. The self can not surrender now, because it is no particular thing or being. It can't surrender, as it has no free will or agency of its own, as it is nothing in particular.

There are sensations, there is being, there is coming and going of thoughts, there is this, who or what has to surrender? Thoughts come by that tell me that there is still more to discover, to uncover, to process, to let go of, but what is there to let go of and by whom? Things are all coming and going on their own.

Please complete the following sentence: Once I fully surrender I will..

finally be free (that was the first thing that came to mind)

How does it feel in the body when you say or think "How do I break this attachment?" Contracted or Expansive?
What's actually going on in your direct experience?

At first contracted in front of the face and chest. After I let that thought subside the sensations expand to the whole body.
IN DE:
Subvocally saying the sentence = thinking
Feeling sensations all over the body = sensation
Looking at the screen = image
Hearing the typing = sound
Noticing my breath = sensation
Hearing the breath = sound
Thinking about 'myself' = thinking

Do you have any repetitive thought loops that you would like to explore?

Yes I would say that my main repetitive thoughts are about:
- my ex-girlfriend, and related thougths about romance (we broke up this year)
- my roommate (he quite easily triggers me)
- needing/wanting to become enlightened

I would say these are the strongest ones at the moment.

The hand exercise

- How is the movement controlled?

There is no controlling of the movement, it happens all by itself, my hand just knows how to move

- Does a thought control it?

No, I can think stop, but it still continues to flip

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

There seems to be someone looking through my eyes, but upon closer inspection, I can't find its exact location

- How or where is the decision made to turn the hand over?

It literally just flips by itself.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Thoughts make it seem like they are causing the hand to turn, but even without the thoughts it turns and sometimes it does not turn, despite a thought saying it has to turn

- Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

The left hand just moved up, I have no clue why

- Can you find a separate individual "I" or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, the hand is turning all by itself, no one is actively chosing to turn it

- Can a thought initiate anything or is that just another thought story, an overlay to what is actually happening?

Based on this exercise I would say it is just an overlay. Thoughts might make it appear as if they are the cause of you doing something, or not, but they are just an overlay of what is already happening or about to happen, or has taken place. I have already been pondering about this the last few days, because it does 'seem' that some thoughts do have this capacity to at least influence your decision making. Like when I am doing groceries, I am trying to check out and all of a sudden I remember (thinking) that I forgot the banana's, and I need the bananas for my breakfast tomorrow, so I go and get the bananas. In this case the thought of the missing bananas, and the thinking that I need them for tomorrow initiated me to go back in the store to get them. How do you see this?

Thanks in advance and so much already for your support, I feel a lot of gratitude towards you for this!

Kind regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

This is such a good point. There is no self, there is no future, so there is also no self that can surrender to anything in the future. The self can not surrender now, because it is no particular thing or being. It can't surrender, as it has no free will or agency of its own, as it is nothing in particular.

There are sensations, there is being, there is coming and going of thoughts, there is this, who or what has to surrender? Thoughts come by that tell me that there is still more to discover, to uncover, to process, to let go of, but what is there to let go of and by whom? Things are all coming and going on their own.

Beautiful! Now how does it feel to realize this?


Please complete the following sentence: Once I fully surrender I will..

finally be free (that was the first thing that came to mind)

So, the illusory self that wants to surrender will, once it has surrendered, finally be free of itself!! Can you see the joke!

Let's use one of your repetitive thought loops:
What is still needing / wanting to become enlightened?
What is fighting freedom NOW?
Don't answer with thought, you know it can't be found there.
Instead, go into the body and FEEL if it seems as if there is something still holding on.
Just be in the body with those sensations.
Where are those sensations located?
Do they move around, intensify and/or fade?
Can sensations do anything, control anything?
Do sensations know anything?
Can sensations either need or want?

There seems to be someone looking through my eyes, but upon closer inspection, I can't find its exact location

When we see a 'table' we are looking at a flat surface of some material, higher than ground level as it is posed on some sort of support. In DE: seeing (shapes and colors) and thinking (table).

What are we looking for in order to find a 'someone'?

I have already been pondering about this the last few days, because it does 'seem' that some thoughts do have this capacity to at least influence your decision making. Like when I am doing groceries, I am trying to check out and all of a sudden I remember (thinking) that I forgot the banana's, and I need the bananas for my breakfast tomorrow, so I go and get the bananas. In this case the thought of the missing bananas, and the thinking that I need them for tomorrow initiated me to go back in the store to get them. How do you see this?

You hit the nail on the head when you said it does 'seem' that some thoughts .......
But is what 'seems' an actual fact?
I agree with you that it does 'seem' that some thoughts do have a capacity to influence decision making, but such thoughts arise due to prior circumstances:

Thoughts about bananas arose because the 'body mind system' had prior information (a memory) that there were no more bananas.
BUT, you could have not had the thought; or you could have had it too late, after you had finished shopping and not gone back to get the bananas.
Or, you might have not had the thought about bananas and only realized that you had forgotten them once you got home.

This body mind system is remarkable!!

Here's another exercise:

DRINKS EXERCISE

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual or direct experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Enjoy!

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Beautiful! Now how does it feel to realize this?

It feels like a bit of a relief, that there is actually nothing to get rid of or no one that has to surrender. It takes some pressure out of my hands, as there is no me to begin with. Therefore the unfolding of this process will happen by itself. Even giving priority to this is something that will just happen (or not). The apparent structure of the self (body, mind, feeling connection) is more easily recognized, but I still get dragged into it more than enough. However, even when I get dragged into the illusion, I seem to be aware of it and come back to the direct experience more easily.

So, the illusory self that wants to surrender will, once it has surrendered, finally be free of itself!! Can you see the joke!

Hahaha yes, that is not even possible

Let's use one of your repetitive thought loops:
What is still needing / wanting to become enlightened?

It is just a thought, together with a physical release from sensations in the body (from which thoughts claim that they can't be handled by the body). It is just a thought.

What is fighting freedom NOW?

Freedom is already here. Thoughts are fighting the idea that it is not. There is nothing to free from and no one to be freed.

Don't answer with thought, you know it can't be found there.
Instead, go into the body and FEEL if it seems as if there is something still holding on.
Just be in the body with those sensations.

"As if there is something holding on is important to mention", because it does not feel like something is holding on per se. There is just the sensations that move throught the body. Only a thought would say that is is holding on to or resisting something.

Where are those sensations located?

Arms, there seems to be a big contraction in the belly and chest, I feel it in the throat, in the forehead, tickling over the legs, the soles of the feet on the ground. back against the chair, I feel my organs even, around the stomach, the heart is pumping, my hands as I am typing and the tickling sensations there.

Do they move around, intensify and/or fade?

They don't per se intensify, they are constantly in motion and move all over the body. Sensations only fade when I get caught up by a thought, or by another sense. It seems like there is only one sense at the time truly present in my conscious experience (so the labelling happens only for one sense at the time).

Can sensations do anything, control anything?

They just move. It is not even about coming and going, there is only the immediate experience of sensations, nothing more. I feel my heart pounding now strongly. My whole body field seems to be enveloped in sensations. I notice the breath as well. Senses don't care about controlling anything, they just are. If the senses control something, than I can't be aware of it. All I am aware of is the sensing of the sensations.

Do sensations know anything?

Not that I know of. But if they know anything, I wouldnt know what.

Can sensations either need or want?

No it are only the thoughts that need and want. The sensations are just experienced. They hold some important information, from which thought often tries to make a conclusion, like the pain in my back. But even without the label pain, there is just this flow of sensations on the back.

What are we looking for in order to find a 'someone'?

Looking for an experiencer, the one that makes sense of everything, the one who has control over everything. That is what we are looking for in a someone. Something to find.

This body mind system is remarkable!!

So the body mind system is the operating system that makes our body do things? (without the need for thoughts or prior to thoughts)?

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No, the qualities just appeared by themselves, they showed up in a thought form, but I did not create them. I did not choose the preferences either, likewise that came up as a thought.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No the preferences went naturally to the back while I counted the numbers. I also did not choose to shut down the preferencing. In fact I did not make any choice at all.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I only saw a thought coming up that quite strongly affirmed my decision. But it was not a conscious choice. In my thoughts it was sure what I was going to pick and I picked it. Does this proof that the thought made me choose my decision, no, it also doesnt disproof it.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Hmm not particulary. All I noticed was me looking at the tea (my choice), a thought saying I was going for the tea (even before I started the counting), and right before i picked it up a reaffirming thought that said tea was a good idea because it is still hot and therefore better to be drank soon. Nothing arised as the chooser, the idea that I made the choice came after having the toughts of choosing the tea and the reason for it.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

As we saw earlier, a feeling can't choose, it can only be felt, sensed in DE. I don't think it is a feeling that we made the choice, which felt for me as well, but it is a thought that is somehow believed. A thought that claims it is the feeling that accompanied the moment of choice (or shortly after). But it is just a thought, nothing more.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

It feels like a bit of a relief, that there is actually nothing to get rid of or no one that has to surrender. It takes some pressure out of my hands, as there is no me to begin with. Therefore the unfolding of this process will happen by itself. Even giving priority to this is something that will just happen (or not).

Yes! :)

The apparent structure of the self (body, mind, feeling connection) is more easily recognized, but I still get dragged into it more than enough. However, even when I get dragged into the illusion, I seem to be aware of it and come back to the direct experience more easily.

Yes, the dragging in will continue, old habits die hard! It's great that there is awareness of this and this will continue to grow little by little.

Looking for an experiencer, the one that makes sense of everything, the one who has control over everything. That is what we are looking for in a someone. Something to find.

And, can an experiencer be found?

Try this - it is a lovely exercise to play around with!

Take a couple of breaths to settle down, and now find an object in the visual field.
In a relaxed way, look at the object and consider:

Can a precise line of demarcation be found between you and the object?
It 'seems' as if there is a you/subject/experiencer looking at an object out there, right?
Now, reverse 'the gaze' and let the object 'gaze' back at you.
(Don't let thoughts get in the way about objects not being able to see, this is more of an energetic exercise)
What happens when you do this? Where does the object's gaze land?
What is noticed in DE?
Is there a 'you' thing that can be found?
Can either an actual subject or object be found in direct experience?
Can an experiencer be found or is there simply experiencing happening?

So the body mind system is the operating system that makes our body do things? (without the need for thoughts or prior to thoughts)?

Yes, did the drink's exercise make that clear?


BUTTCHAIR

Please LOOK/FEEL for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.

Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.

Report that here.


If you like, next time we can look into how you get triggered by your roommate.
Choose one thing.
Rather than describing what he does that annoys you, please try and reframe by saying what he does not do,
what you would prefer that he would do.
This removes a strong judgmental quality from wanting things to be different.
For example, "he leaves his stuff all over the place" would be rephrased as "he doesn't pick his stuff up."


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Sorry for the later reply, I got a bit taken away by life, but I was playing a bit with the exercises the past days. I am going to try to reply faster, because having the momentum was really nice I realized.

And, can an experiencer be found?

So far I haven't been able to haha

Can a precise line of demarcation be found between you and the object?

No nothing

It 'seems' as if there is a you/subject/experiencer looking at an object out there, right?

Yes it seems like it, even excluding the labeling and staying in DE it is difficult to not feel like someone is watching

Now, reverse 'the gaze' and let the object 'gaze' back at you.
(Don't let thoughts get in the way about objects not being able to see, this is more of an energetic exercise)
What happens when you do this? Where does the object's gaze land?

It feels like the world is coming towards me and it creates a little bit of a tunnel vision.
The gaze seems to be landing into a sensory field, which feels like my body, and a thought that creates an image of me. But also it seems to land in a kind of emptyness, as I cant find any particular point where the gaze lands.
I become more aware of the sensory experience but also feel like I become more like a spacious awareness.

What is noticed in DE?

I feel the sensations in my chest, arms and legs intensifying = sensing
I hear the birds outside = Hearing
I feel my feet on the ground = sensing
I feel my hearth pumping = sensing
Thought trying to make sense of this = thinking

Is there a 'you' thing that can be found?

No, there are the direct experiences, with in this exercise a stronger experience of the sensing, there are the thoughts about me, but where am I? The sensations become so strong and somehow familiar after a while (a particular contraction in the forehead and chest) that it feels so strongly as me, but I realize that I am nothing other than the knowing of the senses. Only thoughts can claim otherwise.

Can either an actual subject or object be found in direct experience?

No, only the content of the thought can create this, which is not DE

Can an experiencer be found or is there simply experiencing happening?

There is simply experiencing. The experiencer is the momentary experience of one of the senses.

Yes, did the drink's exercise make that clear?

Not fully yet, the past few days I became more aware of thoughts and if they really have the influence they claim and I realized that they oftentime claim to be decisive afterwards, while its not the case, however I still do feel like they have some influence, because it seems sometimes that only the thought would be able to create an idea for an action. Certainly when it is something that concerns thinking (work related), or an intellectual action. Furthermore, there is no body, there is no mind, so how can there be a body-mind?

BUTTCHAIR
Please LOOK/FEEL for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.
Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

There is just the sensation of sitting. No clear division other that a thought creating an image of it.

It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just be with the sensations.
Sink into that noticing. Notice how it FEELS.
Report that here.

It feels like tinkling over that area. There is a constantly changing patern of sensations. It feels soft. It feels warm.

If you like, next time we can look into how you get triggered by your roommate.
Choose one thing.
Rather than describing what he does that annoys you, please try and reframe by saying what he does not do,
what you would prefer that he would do.
This removes a strong judgmental quality from wanting things to be different.
For example, "he leaves his stuff all over the place" would be rephrased as "he doesn't pick his stuff up."

I will play a bit around with this, but already noticed the past days there were a lot less irritations. He is really not that bad, but his lifestyle is just completely different and therefore he lives more at night, which disturbs my sleeping pattern a bit. However, I also notice that my my mind (lack of a better term to describe it), is looking for something to get frustrated about. It is looking for an external circumstance that is to blame for something. So most often this is my roommate, or this is my ex-girlfriend (now that is less already than a while back). It seems like it wants to latch on to something and create and believe the story around it. Likewise I feel that years of meditation have made me more sensitive to sounds and that is where most of the frustration comes from, but I know that my roommate (and other roommates as well) do not value or understand silence as much as I do, and I can't expect this from him. At the same time, I also realize how many beautiful opportunities of tuning into DE it offers when I do experience this frustration. But yeah, when it is affecting my sleep, I find it very difficult to not get taken away by negative thoughts. How important is the environment for doing these inquiries? I find it sometimes difficult to remain in a state of inquiry while living with people that are not interested in it at all.

Regarding this exercise: He is now singing loudly in the shower: "He is not being silent while taking a shower" Is that how to do it?

Thanks in advance!

Warm regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

I am going to try to reply faster, because having the momentum was really nice I realized.

Yes, it definitely does work best, but circumstances come up so its not always possible to keep the pace going.

Yes it seems like it, even excluding the labeling and staying in DE it is difficult to not feel like someone is watching

My bad for writing "seems like"! Remember, "Seems like" is not DE, it's an invitation to look again into DE.
One definition for illusion is that it is not what it seems.

What makes it difficult other than a thought?
How can one feel like a someone? There either is or is not a someone!
Look again for that someone watching....what do you find in DE?
Does there need to be a see-er/watcher/looker to see, or can seeing just happen.

It feels like the world is coming towards me and it creates a little bit of a tunnel vision.
The gaze seems to be landing into a sensory field, which feels like my body, and a thought that creates an image of me.

Yes, it does feel like that at first. It is a new way of experiencing the visual field, and it is surprising how many subtle filters are in place that create that feeling. And then the thought:
Feels like my body: Is there a precise feeling that can be labelled "like my body?"
What do you find here in DE?

But also it seems to land in a kind of emptyness, as I cant find any particular point where the gaze lands.
I become more aware of the sensory experience but also feel like I become more like a spacious awareness.

Good, keep playing around with this exercise.

Is there an "I" that can be found anywhere that is aware/more aware or not aware?
What is there in DE? All thought content etc. is overlay, it is not DE.
What sees whether there is more or less awareness or no awareness at all?
Can this be found in DE, or is it just descriptive thoughts?
Where has this "I" suddenly sprung up that can become more like spacious awareness, what was it before?
How can spacious awareness be found in DE other than as a sensation with descriptive thought overlay?
Is there such a thing as awareness that can be found?

No, there are the direct experiences, with in this exercise a stronger experience of the sensing, there are the thoughts about me, but where am I? The sensations become so strong and somehow familiar after a while (a particular contraction in the forehead and chest) that it feels so strongly as me, but I realize that I am nothing other than the knowing of the senses. Only thoughts can claim otherwise.

YES!

Not fully yet, the past few days I became more aware of thoughts and if they really have the influence they claim and I realized that they oftentime claim to be decisive afterwards, while its not the case, however I still do feel like they have some influence, because it seems sometimes that only the thought would be able to create an idea for an action.
Not fully yet, the past few days I became more aware of thoughts and if they really have the influence they claim and I realized that they oftentime claim to be decisive afterwards, while its not the case, however I still do feel like they have some influence, because it seems sometimes that only the thought would be able to create an idea for an action. Certainly when it is something that concerns thinking (work related), or an intellectual action.

Good, keep looking and investigating!
Remember that what was being looked for in that exercise was some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

Furthermore, there is no body, there is no mind, so how can there be a body-mind

Yes, correct. In DE, no body can be found through the five senses nor can a mind and so you are correct no body-mind either!!! All are concepts.


I will play a bit around with this, but already noticed the past days there were a lot less irritations. He is really not that bad, but his lifestyle is just completely different and therefore he lives more at night, which disturbs my sleeping pattern a bit.

However, I also notice that my my mind (lack of a better term to describe it), is looking for something to get frustrated about. It is looking for an external circumstance that is to blame for something.

This is really shadow-work that needs to be gone into here. Even when it has been clearly seen that there is now separate, autonomous, independent 'self' making choices, decisions, etc. Old patterns of reactivity and/or trauma will arise and will need looking into. Rather beyond the scope of what this inquiry is about, but we can take a little look.

What is happening in your DE when you notice that your mind is looking for something to get frustrated about or blame. Take a look at the thoughts, then take a look at feelings, use them as pointers to go into the sensations in the body and then let the labels drop. Stay with the body sensations and see what arises. Please note down what you find.

So most often this is my roommate, or this is my ex-girlfriend (now that is less already than a while back). It seems like it wants to latch on to something and create and believe the story around it.

Yes, when we find someone or something to blame there is always a story! I can't or I feel {.........} because they {..........}.

Likewise I feel that years of meditation have made me more sensitive to sounds and that is where most of the frustration comes from, but I know that my roommate (and other roommates as well) do not value or understand silence as much as I do, and I can't expect this from him.

At the same time, I also realize how many beautiful opportunities of tuning into DE it offers when I do experience this frustration.

Wonderful!

But yeah, when it is affecting my sleep, I find it very difficult to not get taken away by negative thoughts. How important is the environment for doing these inquiries?

Nothing is easy when one feels sleep deprived for sure. But I don't think that there is any perfect environment. This inquiry that we are doing can be done anywhere, in brief moments of looking throughout the day, wherever you are. Negative thoughts are par for the course. What are negative thoughts in DE? What happens when there are negative thoughts?
What happens if the label negative gets removed? Who or what labels thought either positive or negative?

I find it sometimes difficult to remain in a state of inquiry while living with people that are not interested in it at all.

I think that when we are on this path of investigating into the self illusion we mostly find ourselves alone amongst people who are not interested at all. Also, there are days when there can be a resistance to doing the inquiry. This can be a perfect inquiry in itself......
Who or what is finding it difficult to do inquiry.
What is this "finding it difficult" pointing to.....some feelings/emotions/sensations?
Go to the body. Drop the labels, drop the story.
Can you be in the body and stay with the sensations without there being any story?

Regarding this exercise: He is now singing loudly in the shower: "He is not being silent while taking a shower" Is that how to do it?

Yes, that is a good way to phrase it. When you say that sentence out loud look at what arises in body sensations. Stay with the sensations awhile and then repeat the sentence and continue alternating between sentence and then looking into body sensations arising. Let me know what you find. Keep it as simple as possible, but notice any changes in body sensations.


HEARING EXERCISE : SIMPLY HEARING IN DE

Put on some music. Use earphones if you have them.
Allow yourself to become absorbed in the field of sound.
See if you can feel the body resonating with the sounds.
Ask the following questions:

Where does it feel that the sound is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?

Now ask "What is hearing?" and "Where is it located?"
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?
Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?
Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.
Can an INDEPENDENT HEARER be found?
Could anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?


Afterwards, you can do this practice with the sounds in your environment.
See what happens when you receive all sounds as being part of an overall 'soundfield'.
Relaxing into the soundfield rather than energetically pushing certain sounds away.


With love,
Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Thank you for your questions!

My bad for writing "seems like"! Remember, "Seems like" is not DE, it's an invitation to look again into DE.
One definition for illusion is that it is not what it seems.

Haha yeah, but I understood that the 'seems like' is what it is all about. I know there is actually no one watching, but patterning makes it appear that way.

What makes it difficult other than a thought?

Haha without a thought nothing is difficult, there is just the experience of seeing and sensations in the body (which don't imply an experiencer without the thought of it

How can one feel like a someone? There either is or is not a someone!

Good question, it is just a thought. Like I said the particular contractions or combination of sensations feel familiar, but they dont create the feeling of someone, unless a thought say so. I have an experience, that is for sure, but I can't say that I am someone or something.

Look again for that someone watching....what do you find in DE?

Seeing the object = seeing
Thinking about the object = thinking
Silence = hearing
Sensations in the body = sensing
Uncomfortable feeling in the belly = sensing and thinking
Thoughts about not finding a me = thinking

Does there need to be a see-er/watcher/looker to see, or can seeing just happen.

Seeing is just happening. No one is actively doing the seeing. There is just the experience of seeing. Any identification of an object I am looking at is a thought and any identification of a subject that is looking is also a thought. This is clear.

Is there an "I" that can be found anywhere that is aware/more aware or not aware?

No particular place. There is an awareness, I am aware of things, but I don't know where I am being aware from

What is there in DE? All thought content etc. is overlay, it is not DE.

Sensations all over de body = sensing
Pain in the back = sensing and thinking
Feet on the floor = sensing
My food processed in the stomach: sensing
Hearing a plain outside = hearing
Looking at my guitar = seeing
Hearing my breath = hearing

What sees whether there is more or less awareness or no awareness at all?

There is just awareness, I have no idea how there can be more awareness. There is just the awareness of one of the senses in experience. I don't even know where to look anymore for someone or something that is awareness or looks to the world.

Can this be found in DE, or is it just descriptive thoughts?

That would be descriptive thoughts, in DE awareness is just a thought and so is a seeër.

Where has this "I" suddenly sprung up that can become more like spacious awareness, what was it before?

It is always that spacious awareness. There is no I that sprung up. It is just a matter of fixation. The fixation or focus is placed (not consciously, because there is no one to consciously do it) on one (or more) of the senses (often of course thoughts). I guess that to sense I am this spacious awareness there needs to be no identification with thoughts and therefore the apparature opens up to whatever wants to be noticed.

How can spacious awareness be found in DE other than as a sensation with descriptive thought overlay?

Nowhere, it is still a concept. In DE there is just the different senses to be noticed, nothing more. Is that what I am? The moment to moment experience of the senses? Because I cant find anything besides that when I stay in DE?

Is there such a thing as awareness that can be found?

No, there is just the being aware of the senses. Things happening moment to moment. Even if there is an awareness I wouldnt be able to find it, because I can experience nothing more than the senses. It is that simple.

What is happening in your DE when you notice that your mind is looking for something to get frustrated about or blame. Take a look at the thoughts, then take a look at feelings, use them as pointers to go into the sensations in the body and then let the labels drop. Stay with the body sensations and see what arises. Please note down what you find.

I always find it difficult to identify different feelings, but I tend to more easily recognize it in the body when I am feeling frustrated or any other 'negative' feeling. I mostly notice the same parts of the body that take in a prevalent place when I feel these sensations. The belly, the forehead (a little bit a of a headache), a narrow feeling in the chest, feeling the throat, shorter breath, my heart beating faster, tinkling sensations on the arms and legs. That feeling in the belly seems to be the most uncomfortable feeling and maybe the front of the head. When noticing the sensations and investigating them they dont dissapear, but they are also not as much uncomfortable as in the beginning. They aren't as bad as they seem.

What are negative thoughts in DE?

Just thoughts, nothing more

What happens when there are negative thoughts?

Depends, if the negative thoughts is seen for what it is quickly (just a thought), it is just like any other thought and nothing much happens other than the knowing of thinking. However, when the negative thought becomes identified with (the story is believed, a concept that I still find difficult to comprehend because who is believing it?) it can create a chain of more negativity, and also sensations that one can associate with a negative state even more (again a thought making it into something negative), so it can become a vicious circle.

What happens if the label negative gets removed?

Then there are just the sensations in the body that feel a little uncomfortable (I am already much more okay with it because it is interesting to investigate), and like I said an accompanying thought that frames these sensations as something bad, or something I should not feel.

Who or what labels thought either positive or negative?

Good question, I have no idea. The labelling just happens, there is no one doing it. It is probably based on my past experiences and natural programming to make a thought be felt as bad or good. However I am not creating the label, it is created all by itself. It is then the combination of a thought together with a particular formation of sensations that create the idea that it is negative.

The following questions are good because I notice a little bit a reluctance to do these exercises, like I am trying to seek distractions, could that have to do with a certain fear for investigating this? It feels like a kind of reluctance to really feel what I am.

Who or what is finding it difficult to do inquiry.

I notice it comes a little bit down to this feeling of procrastination, which comes with sensations that I rather want to avoid. Who is trying to avoid them? I have no idea. I am tuning into the sensations now. Strong contractions in the belly, the chest, throat, and those tickling sensations in arms and legs. I guess it is more a matter of habitual activity, that keeps me away. The habit of the formation of me to avoid it. I noticed when I was more stuck in suffering (continuous negative thougths and an identification with them), which is less the last couple of weeks, I felt much more the necessity to do inquiry.

What is this "finding it difficult" pointing to.....some feelings/emotions/sensations?

Yeah so like I mentioned it is the sensations and the not wanting to feel them or rather prefering something else to feel. What is prefering something else? No idea, it just happens. I maybe there is also a bit of fear underlying it, like I mentioned, a fear to see the self for what it is. A fear to really feel intimately what I am or rather what I am not. I wouldnt maybe even call it fear, but something is stopping me from fully embracing it.

Go to the body. Drop the labels, drop the story.
Can you be in the body and stay with the sensations without there being any story?

Oeh it is difficult, I mean not the sensations in themselves. When I tune into them it is completely fine, it is even interesting to notice these sensations all over the body (it felt like I had Acupuncture session). However if you tell me to stay with the sensations without a story that is difficult. I notice that thoughts are being created (which is fine), but focus is easily brought to story or the thoughts. But yeah, there are moments when I can just be with the sensations. But how does one drop the story? Who is the one dropping the story? What can decide anyways to focus on the story or on the sensations?

Yes, that is a good way to phrase it. When you say that sentence out loud look at what arises in body sensations. Stay with the sensations awhile and then repeat the sentence and continue alternating between sentence and then looking into body sensations arising. Let me know what you find. Keep it as simple as possible, but notice any changes in body sensations.

I don't know if I notice any clear changes in the body. The body field feels anyways like one cloud of sensations. Continuously tickling on different places on the surface of it (close to the skin) and when I have said the sentence I notice a stronger focus on a feeling in the gut area. The feeling in the gut is not very comfortable, but maybe it is also related to the pain in my back.

Where does it feel that the sound is?

Sound feels to be at the area around the ears where the earpods are located.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

My first inclination is that it feels behind the eyes. However upon closer inspection I can't find a clear location. From there the attention moves to the chest and to the belly and then to the whole body. I honestly dont know where I am.

Now ask "What is hearing?" and "Where is it located?"
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?

I interpreted this questions as "What/who is hearing" not as "what is a definition of hearing" is that correct?
When not trying to find an analytical answer, I cant really find an answer and there is just the listening of the music. It is beauitul. It feels to be a bit more spread out, but the strongest sound still seems to be focused around the ears.

Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Not sure if they are 2 diferent spaces, but the focus easily goes to thoughts, and then there is less oneness with the music.

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.
Can an INDEPENDENT HEARER be found?

No there is just the hearing, together with just the sensing it is quite an enjoyable experience. But who to experience it? A feeling in my belly? A contraction at the front of my face. The looking or seeing of a visual field? All these things can't be just me, because I experience more than that and other things than that. I kinda become where my attention is. But I am not independent from the hearing, I am the hearing, I am the seeing, I am the feeling, I am the thinking, but just the Direct experience of it and only on the moment I am aware of that specific sensation. The I is just the thing where the focus is, but that is nothing in particular.

Could anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Nothing but a concept or idea could suggest so.

Afterwards, you can do this practice with the sounds in your environment.
See what happens when you receive all sounds as being part of an overall 'soundfield'.
Relaxing into the soundfield rather than energetically pushing certain sounds away.

Where does it feel that the sound is?

In this case the sound is everywhere, on different spots, these spots seem to be external. I am now sitting in the train doing this, and there are 2 people talking. The sounds seems to be in front of me, where they are sitting.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

It feels like I am here noticing the sounds, or at least the sounds are taking place there and I am here. There being different locations around me. At the same time it also doesnt feel like I am here, because I can't really find myself. I guess it is also a thought that claims or project that the sound is somewhere else from where I am.

Now ask "What is hearing?" and "Where is it located?"
What happens to the quality of hearing when you ask this question?

Sounds are noticed more intensily. Perhaps there is also less labeling of the sounds, or at least less focus on the labeling.

Does attention shift from hearing to the thought space?

Not sure if I fully understand this question, but after a while being in hearing a thought comes up that grabs my attention

Notice any sensations that arise in the body with this question.
Be fully with the sensations in the body, let go of any thoughts
Allow yourself once again to become absorbed in the sounds.
Can an INDEPENDENT HEARER be found?

No, there are just the sounds, and me being one with them. I am not over here hearing the sounds, because that are just the senses working creating the feeling that I am here and a thought creating the idea that the sounds are somewhere else. But just tuning in to the sounds, there is no independent hearer.

Could anything that is suggested as the hearer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No it is just a concept, but it does not refer to anything. The hearer is empty, because there is only the hearing. Anything else from the hearing (and the other senses) can not be known.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Great inquiry, but still a lot of thoughts circling about the illusory "I" that overlay onto your DE:)

Nowhere, it is still a concept. In DE there is just the different senses to be noticed, nothing more. Is that what I am? The moment to moment experience of the senses? Because I cant find anything besides that when I stay in DE?

"The moment to moment experience of the senses", lovely! a
And then the question "Is that what I am?" is included in that as: simply thoughts arising.

No, there is just the being aware of the senses. Things happening moment to moment. Even if there is an awareness I wouldnt be able to find it, because I can experience nothing more than the senses. It is that simple.

Beautiful!

When noticing the sensations and investigating them they dont dissapear, but they are also not as much uncomfortable as in the beginning. They aren't as bad as they seem.

Yes, body sensations really aren't as bad as they seem, and yet we spent our life running away from them! We learned to do that, to divert our attention away from the body into activities of thought or doing.

Good question, I have no idea. The labelling just happens, there is no one doing it. It is probably based on my past experiences and natural programming to make a thought be felt as bad or good. However I am not creating the label, it is created all by itself. It is then the combination of a thought together with a particular formation of sensations that create the idea that it is negative.

Yes, well put. Along those lines, you might be interested in looking into an approach called "Internal Family Systems" (Richard Schwartz). The idea that a "individual character" contains a multitude of parts/identities that arise to fulfill different situations. Such parts can hold an attitude towards the world, perhaps created when we were infants.

If you feel some kind of 'negative' attitude arising it can be interesting to FEEL INTO the mood or attitude and see if there is an underlying theme or thought attached. This is an intuitive approach in order to glean a little bit more information from the subconscious part of the mind where emotions and feeling states arise, so watch if you get sidetracked into a thinking loop, that is not the point.

The following questions are good because I notice a little bit a reluctance to do these exercises, like I am trying to seek distractions, could that have to do with a certain fear for investigating this? It feels like a kind of reluctance to really feel what I am.

" Is that what I am? The moment to moment experience of the senses? Because I cant find anything besides that when I stay in DE?"

It is understandable that there would be a reluctance to embrace this. You have discovered that one of the first beliefs that were instilled in us as a small child is not the way things really are. In the beginning this understanding can be more of an intellectual realization, and then slowly, over time, it becomes a 'knowing' from the whole being.

So feel into that reluctance, welcome it with curiosity, what does it want to say, what is it fearful of?
Can 'it' see that any thoughts about what "I am" are simply thoughts arising?
What does it think it will loose through fully FEELING.
See the thoughts for what they are: simply thinking, and then FEEL into the body for sensations.
Can you be fully in your body with those sensations without diverting away by distracting activities?

A fear to really feel intimately what I am or rather what I am not. I wouldnt maybe even call it fear, but something is stopping me from fully embracing it.

Your intuitive use of the word intimate is wonderful..... Keep diving deeper into the intimacy of being with the sensations in the body. Don't force, intimacy builds gradually! <3

But yeah, there are moments when I can just be with the sensations. But how does one drop the story? Who is the one dropping the story? What can decide anyways to focus on the story or on the sensations?

Good point, how do choices or decisions get made if there is no separate self that chooses or decides?
I might have given you a suggestion to drop the story, and now you are starting to go into analysis rather than LOOKING.
How does one drop a story? I have no idea!! Haha!!
Here are some instructions:
Pick up a pen or something unbreakable in your hand. Hold your arm out, palm down above the table/floor.
Feel all the work/effort that is going into holding onto the pen.
Now, drop the pen.

Answer from DE:
Who/What decided to pick up (or not pick up) the pen as per the instructions?
Who/What decided when to drop the pen?
What thought feels freer, more expansive: "I am dropping the pen" or "dropping the pen simply happening ?
What decides what it focuses on, or does attention appear to shift without a decider?

From my own DE:
Writing on the keyboard happening.
Reading words about dropping a story led to thought about dropping a pen, led to tapping keys on keyboard to communicate this idea 'to you'.
How does this all happen?
Follow backwards all the causes and conditions necessary for those instructions to be communicated to you:
This is a monumental task, to name just a few:
Waking up
Getting coffee
Reading emails
Going to 'your' post
Typing replies
Waiting for thoughts to arise
Typing thoughs
Deleting some writing
Editing others..............

I interpreted this questions as "What/who is hearing" not as "what is a definition of hearing" is that correct?

Yes, correct.

Not sure if they are 2 diferent spaces, but the focus easily goes to thoughts, and then there is less oneness with the music.

Good answer, well spotted!

No there is just the hearing, together with just the sensing it is quite an enjoyable experience. But who to experience it? A feeling in my belly? A contraction at the front of my face. The looking or seeing of a visual field? All these things can't be just me, because I experience more than that and other things than that.

Lovely initial answer from DE, but then thought content takes over wandering into unanswered questions and assumptions.

Is there an "I"/ subject that experiences sound / object?
Where can that "I" thing be found?
Can a sensation (body sensations, visual content, sound content, smells, tastes) have agency in any way?
Can a sensation even draw or attract attention?
You say "all these things can't be just me, because I experience more than that and other things than that"
This is not DE, this is not actual experience.
What is this 'just me" that experiences......
Is there a separate experiencer that can be found?
If so, where is the gap/line between experiencer and what is experienced (subject and object)
LOOK!

"I kinda become where my attention is"

Yes, it does seem to be like that, but you are still hanging onto the need to find 'yourself"
Is there a see-er to be found that is separate from what is seen or is seeing simply happening?

But I am not independent from the hearing, I am the hearing, I am the seeing, I am the feeling, I am the thinking, but just the Direct experience of it and only on the moment I am aware of that specific sensation.

You are getting there, and there are some traditional points of view that would agree with what you have written here, but identification with or as something is a reinforcement of the "I" concept at more subtle levels.

How does it FEEL in the body when you say "I am the hearing, I am the seeing, I am the feeling, I am the thinking?
Is this DE? Or is this thought content overlay on the DE of the experiential field?
Do you remember that earlier on you had the reflection that even naming the five senses was too much ?

The I is just the thing where the focus is, but that is nothing in particular.

"The I"? Can an "I" thing be found, anywhere?
What is nothing in particular?
What is here?



This is quite a long post, with a number of questions to review, so I will leave you with these for now.
You are really doing great work here Thomas!

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Yes, well put. Along those lines, you might be interested in looking into an approach called "Internal Family Systems" (Richard Schwartz). The idea that a "individual character" contains a multitude of parts/identities that arise to fulfill different situations. Such parts can hold an attitude towards the world, perhaps created when we were infants.

I have dived into it before, and recently been hearing more and more friends doing something with IFS, so perhaps I will pick it up again.

If you feel some kind of 'negative' attitude arising it can be interesting to FEEL INTO the mood or attitude and see if there is an underlying theme or thought attached. This is an intuitive approach in order to glean a little bit more information from the subconscious part of the mind where emotions and feeling states arise, so watch if you get sidetracked into a thinking loop, that is not the point.

These underlying theme's will probably be related to some of the strong believes that I cary with me? For instance that I am not good enough. I wrote down my most occuring limiting believes and notice how often they come back or get reinforced when I dont succeed in something or something.

So feel into that reluctance, welcome it with curiosity, what does it want to say, what is it fearful of?

It is kinda fearful to fully let go and perhaps also to fully feel the pain, but also to fully feel the joy. To let my being be in joy. There is still something missing, something that needs to be found in order to fully embrace it (that is what it wants to say)

Can 'it' see that any thoughts about what "I am" are simply thoughts arising?

Not sure what 'it' is here (I mean I can't find that reluctance), but thoughts are just thoughts indeed. When thoughts are just seens as thoughts, there is not much to be said about them. Any thought about what I will be like when I fully allow is a future thought that doesnt hold any truth in DE.

What does it think it will loose through fully FEELING.

A sense of control, it will loose its familiar way of behaving

See the thoughts for what they are: simply thinking, and then FEEL into the body for sensations.
Can you be fully in your body with those sensations without diverting away by distracting activities?

Ooh the foucs is diverted so easily, thoughts, sounds from outside. Another attempt: I sat for quite a while with purely the sensations (of course getting distracted a lot by thoughts), but I noticed that the sensations are felt more intensily when focusing only on the sensations and also do I feel them on all places on the body, even places where I normally don't notice the sensations. But I guess I am always noticing these sensations, but only one of the senses (mainly thoughts) take more attention, whereby it seems I am not aware anymore of the sensations.

Who/What decided to pick up (or not pick up) the pen as per the instructions?

I just looked at a pen and picked it up, there was not more to it. No decision was made for so far I can tell. So there was looking.

Based on your DE example writing: reading the instruction led to looking for a pen led to seeing a pen led to picking up a pen.

Who/What decided when to drop the pen?

There were thoughts about dropping it, but the moment my hands opened seemed to be completely spontaneous. There was just the looking at the pen dropping = image, and thoughts about why I released it = thinking

Based on your DE example = holding the pen led to feeling what energy is needed to hold it, let to thoughts about when to release it, led to feeling sensations in the arm, let to thinking about my arm getting exhausted, let to letting go?? (not sure how the causal connection works here, its literally like the pen just got dropped on the moment it felt right.)

What thought feels freer, more expansive: "I am dropping the pen" or "dropping the pen simply happening ?

I find it difficult to go into this exercise and feel the difference without a biased idea that the second should be more freeing. However 'I am dropping the pen' seems to cause a bit more contraction in chest, forehead and belly while 'dropping the pen simply happening' does not result in more thoughts afterwards, and therefore is naturally more freeing. But I find it difficult to notice a difference.

What decides what it focuses on, or does attention appear to shift without a decider?

There is just the focusing, no decider to find. Attention shifts from one thing to the other. Even if I decide to put my attention on something for 5 minutes, in those 5 minutes my attention will shift (albeit shortly) to something else, so I can't control my attention. Where would this I even be to control it?

Using this causal method of looking back at how decisions are made I still get the sense that thoughts have an influence, as you also mentioned in your example of DE. So thoughts do have an impact on subsequent actions?

Is there an "I"/ subject that experiences sound / object?

In my direct experience there are sounds, there is typing, there are thoughts, but no indication of an I anywhere I look

Where can that "I" thing be found?

Nowhere

Can a sensation (body sensations, visual content, sound content, smells, tastes) have agency in any way?

Not that I know of, they just all happen. Whatever is causing them to take place or what is being felt is not something I can be aware of how it happens.

Can a sensation even draw or attract attention?

Well yes and no. A sensation gets the attention if it is important enough to be noticed in that moment, but it does not deliberately attract attention. It gets the attention quite spontaneously by whatever mechanism I am operating in. If there is a sudden loud sound, or a strong painful sensation, there is a bigger chance that it will get my attention. But nothing is happening consciously, whatever needs my attention will get it.

You say "all these things can't be just me, because I experience more than that and other things than that"
This is not DE, this is not actual experience.
What is this 'just me" that experiences......
Is there a separate experiencer that can be found?
If so, where is the gap/line between experiencer and what is experienced (subject and object)
LOOK!

I can't seem to find a gab/line between the experiencer and the experienced. I can only notice the experienced. There is typing. There is looking on the screen. There is thinking. There is feeling my back. There are thoughts about pain in my back. The face is tickling, there is sadness (which is thoughts and sensations combined), there are bird sounds, feet are touching the ground. The experiencer and experienced are one in this case. Why do I actually need to be something? I am still looking for something to find, but there doesnt seem to be anything graspable. How interesting and paradoxical this whole process.

Is there a see-er to be found that is separate from what is seen or is seeing simply happening?

Seeing is simply happening, any perception of a see-er is just an idea

How does it FEEL in the body when you say "I am the hearing, I am the seeing, I am the feeling, I am the thinking?

It create a sense of seperateness. It really brings an awareness in the body that feels like there is a body over here experiencing sensations within a certain proximate space. Like someone is experiencing the sensations in its own body. And more focus on the sensations in the forehead. Other than that not much changes.

Is this DE? Or is this thought content overlay on the DE of the experiential field?

It is thought content. That is why I am starting to find these exercises focus on what a thought does to me a little be difficult and somehow senseless because they are still just thoughts. Or is it still interesting to investigate the effect of different thoughts?

Do you remember that earlier on you had the reflection that even naming the five senses was too much ?

Yes, I mean all of it is necessary as pointers, but in the end the label only comes after the actual DE which is impossible to describe and therefore impossible for me to convey to you.

"The I"? Can an "I" thing be found, anywhere?

I is a thought, nothing more. The thought itself has no particular place.

What is nothing in particular?

I just feel my chest, my belly, sadness (thought and feeling), confusion (thought). I dont know how to answer this to be honest.

What is here?

Sounds, thoughts, feeling in the chest, feeling in my throat, typing, the image of the room, image of a guitar, sensations on the face, tasting my coffee and chocolate, the sound of breathing, more thoughts, subvocal labelling (toughts), feeling the shoulders, thoughts about what else there is to find, thought about me not being good enough, thoughts about who I am, sounds outside, thoughts about finding something that can be a revelation, feeling the belly, loneliness (thought), thinking about my ex-girlfriend (thought). No me to find anywhere. I just tried to describe it as close to DE as I could.

I notice that during this christmas time many thoughts about my ex-girlfriend are starting to come up and strong 'negative' feelings associated with it. Perhaps a beautiful chance to investigate that as well, what do you think? It is probably the thing that gave me the most pain this year and really threw me onto the path of inquiry (thankfully).

All the best Rowena, I can't believe that you are helping me out without knowing me. I will just keep on having this as my main priority and that is all that I can do, but whatever it will lead to already many thanks and I hope you will have some great christmas days coming up.

Warm regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

These underlying theme's will probably be related to some of the strong believes that I cary with me? For instance that I am not good enough. I wrote down my most occuring limiting believes and notice how often they come back or get reinforced when I don't succeed in something or something.

This is such a common belief. An old pattern of thinking that is part of our (since most of us have had this) conditioning.
But until such beliefs really get investigated they remain operating under the surface and reappear everytime something doesn't go the way we had hoped. The way is inward, into the body and being with the sensations surfacing with the thought "I am not good enough."
How does it feel when you remove the words "I am" ? Are the body sensations the same?

It is kinda fearful to fully let go and perhaps also to fully feel the pain, but also to fully feel the joy. To let my being be in joy. There is still something missing, something that needs to be found in order to fully embrace it (that is what it wants to say)

You've collected great information from this/these 'part(s)'. There might be a belief lurking that fully feeling joy might have negative consequences and so there is a protective mechanism (part) preventing that from taking place. Just follow the breadcrumbs of information back into the body. Once your attention is focused on the DE of body sensations, even if only for a short while

Can anything be missing? or is this just a thought?
Place your attention into the the other sense fields
Again, can anything be missing?

A sense of control, it will loose its familiar way of behaving

Oh yes, we hold on to patterns that are familiar, even if we know they are not effective!
Once again, Can you be in the body and see if you can stay just a little bit longer with the sensations?
Little dips at a time!!
Suggestion: Turn the shower fully on to COLD: Can you be with the sensations of cold? For how long?
Now: Remove the label COLD
What is left?

Using this causal method of looking back at how decisions are made I still get the sense that thoughts have an influence, as you also mentioned in your example of DE. So thoughts do have an impact on subsequent actions?

Yes, for sure they can influence, as an invitation.
But does a thought have agency?

(not sure how the causal connection works here, its literally like the pen just got dropped on the moment it felt right.)

You're not supposed to know! Just experience!

I find it difficult to go into this exercise and feel the difference without a biased idea that the second should be more freeing. However 'I am dropping the pen' seems to cause a bit more contraction in chest, forehead and belly while 'dropping the pen simply happening' does not result in more thoughts afterwards, and therefore is naturally more freeing. But I find it difficult to notice a difference.

But you did notice a difference. Contraction closes down. Go for what feels more freeing!

. But nothing is happening consciously, whatever needs my attention will get it.

Yes, but is it 'your' attention?: Is there a 'you' that directs attention?
Or is it simply shifting of attention happening?

I can't seem to find a gab/line between the experiencer and the experienced. I can only notice the experienced.

If there is something experienced it suggests an experiencer.
No experiencer, no experienced, simply experiencing. Everything is verbing!
Is there a 'you' that can notice experiencing?
Or is experiencing simply happening

The experiencer and experienced are one in this case.

YES!

Why do I actually need to be something? I am still looking for something to find, but there doesnt seem to be anything graspable. How interesting and paradoxical this whole process.

Yes, totally paradoxical! Bravo! :)

It is thought content. That is why I am starting to find these exercises focus on what a thought does to me a little be difficult and somehow senseless because they are still just thoughts. Or is it still interesting to investigate the effect of different thoughts?

Words / thoughts point either to further abstraction and concepts, or they point us to LOOK in DE.
Therefore it is useful and interesting to investigate the effect of different thoughts. If there is a strong sensation in the body then thought likely points to some hidden belief that can be looked at. It is easy to see thought content intellectually, but to become detached from believing thoughts and seeing them means looking deeper.

I notice that during this christmas time many thoughts about my ex-girlfriend are starting to come up and strong 'negative' feelings associated with it. Perhaps a beautiful chance to investigate that as well, what do you think? It is probably the thing that gave me the most pain this year and really threw me onto the path of inquiry (thankfully).

This is a perfect opportunity to investigate. Take notice of the thought content and emotions attached and allow this to be the entryway into body sensations. An emotion is a felt body sensation plus label of the emotion. Try and keep away from getting bogged down with narrative, keep it as minimal as possible. Always looking to see if an "I" or ''ME" can be found.


HOW TO DISTINGUISH TRUTH FROM A LIE

We often lie every day without realizing it. For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, but at that moment, perhaps you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters not at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, also a kind if lie, when we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings a body sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, the feeling of truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First of all, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find a lie. We don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I am"

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.



All the best Rowena, I can't believe that you are helping me out without knowing me. I will just keep on having this as my main priority and that is all that I can do, but whatever it will lead to already many thanks and I hope you will have some great christmas days coming up.

It is my pleasure Thomas, it's all just happening; you arriving at the forum and me choosing your post. No "I" or "you" really except for ease of communication! Enjoy the holiday season, there are always things to investigate!

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

How does it feel when you remove the words "I am" ? Are the body sensations the same?

Not too much difference, the body sensations become a little bit lighter perhaps

Can anything be missing? or is this just a thought?

Only a thought can say something is missing.

Place your attention into the the other sense fields
Again, can anything be missing?

There is just the hearing, seeing or feeling. Only when a thought comes in that says missing, there is the concept of missing. Otherwise there is just beingness. Being and noticing.

Once again, Can you be in the body and see if you can stay just a little bit longer with the sensations?

Yes I am staying longer and longer with the sensations. Sometimes when meditating, and kind of getting the right pointer, it feels like attention get shifted back to me and my body gets under a lot of tension (I have had this maybe 10 times the past half year), where I will even start shaking a bit, and then it mostly ends up with cramps in my hips, on that moment I release the tension with some breathing exercises. Do you think I should stick with that tension?

Suggestion: Turn the shower fully on to COLD: Can you be with the sensations of cold? For how long?
Now: Remove the label COLD
What is left?

I take cold showers more often, so I am used to it. But it is interesting to put away the label cold. It opens up the awareness for purely feeling the sensations. I noticed that thoughts kept on placing the label cold, but not focusing on it allowed me to stay with the body. It became actually quite refreshing (literally and figuratively) because the sensations became quite enjoyable. I could stay with it a couple of minutes.

But does a thought have agency?

Aaah okee, yeah they dont have agency. They are noticed and sometimes they can be the inspiration for an action, but they certainty have no agency. That would mean there is an independent thinker, but I am not that thinker, because I can't create my thoughts, and most thoughts are not followed up on. Thoughts that are worthy or interesting are noticed (just as the other senses), or better: come into conscious awareness, and thereby have the potential to influence the following moments (in thoughts, sensations, or actions), but this is by no means because thoughts have the agency to these following moments. There is no one with agency in fact, it is all just one big happening, that is clear to me.

But you did notice a difference. Contraction closes down. Go for what feels more freeing!

When using 'I am' the attention or experience of sensations is more contracted around the face, when loosing the 'I am' it moves more the the heart/chest area. Not using the I am seems to create a bit more space, through which the attention can float freely over the body. So it is more spacious. It seems to be a little bit more releasing.

Yes, but is it 'your' attention?: Is there a 'you' that directs attention?

Attention seems to have its own will, it just goes wherever it wants. Nothing is owning the attention tho. It is not bound or controlled by anything. For now it just switches between thoughts, sensations, sounds, tastes. It is not my attention, because I dont own it (if something is owned than attention is owning me haha), but it is what is forming my conscious reality. Wherever the attention goes is what I am aware of moment to moment. Although there is no me that I can find, I can't seem to find anything other than the attention (which is equivalant to making one of the senses aware or shining light on them). But in this whole process I am not doing anything.

Or is it simply shifting of attention happening?

Yes it is simply shifting of attention happening, not more. I am trying to understand it, but attention is not to be understood. It just goes where it goes. The sensations in the face, in the back, the sounds outside, the typing fingers, the image of letters appearing when I am typing, thoughts about my ex-girlfriend, strong sensations and a an label of pain, noticing sounds in the kitchen, strong feeling in the belly, the attention just goes wherever it goes.

Is there a 'you' that can notice experiencing?

That me that seems to be noticing experience from behind the eyes is also an experience. There is a constant experiencing indeed. Saying the experienced means something in the past, which is a thought, which is also experiencing. There is just experiencing.

Or is experiencing simply happening

Yes there is just the experiencing happening. Even when I get lost in thoughts, it is just happening. There is no me choosing that, and there is no me to blame for it and there is no me create the thoughts and there is no me to get me out of the thoughts. Still they are so good in catching the attention and dragging it along for a while causing suffering. But suffering to who? What is suffering even. It is the 'painful' sensations together with a label together with an identification that it is happening to me. But there is no one to experience this. Still these sensations can't be fully embraced yet.

This is a perfect opportunity to investigate. Take notice of the thought content and emotions attached and allow this to be the entryway into body sensations. An emotion is a felt body sensation plus label of the emotion. Try and keep away from getting bogged down with narrative, keep it as minimal as possible. Always looking to see if an "I" or ''ME" can be found.

Yeah I send her a message today (with happy holidays) and she replied and it brings attention a lot to my thoughts again (like continously thinking the same thing) and cause sensations in the body that I associate with pain. Very strong underbelly feeling and sensation in the forehead. Often when I notice this happens, I try to look for a Me or I in all of this and I can't find it, but the sensations seem to remain for a while. There seem to be different emotions mixed here, love, shame, guilt, frustration, anger, sadness, grief. Of course all of these are labels. More importantly is that it is always difficult for me to fully feel into this, to fully allow it, although it already became much easier. I try to welcome it with open arms and curiosity, sometimes even looking for it. Is there an I or a Me here? No hahaha. The imagenary image of her creates a duality between her and me and that creates an idea of me. But there is no me and there is no her I guess. There are thoughts about it, sensations, memories (thoughts), and pictures of the past.

First of all, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Yes

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."
How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.
It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.
Find a lie. We don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.
Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.
What is found?

I feel my heart pounding strongly, and yes a strong feeling in the gut. Its a feeling I recognize from when I lie. I also feel something in the throat.

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.
1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.
I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.
Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.
I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I am"

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

It feels heavy indeed, and contracted in the sense that I loose sight of my other suroundings and tend to be focused localized. The lie creates a contraction in the forehead, as well as in the gut. At the moment I feel sensations all over my body, like acupuncture is being done all over the body and a strong feeling in the gut (this happens when I get in deep attachment to my ex-girlfriend again, like I have been today, so I have been having it for many moments today, it is the feeling I am trying to avoid the most I can). A feeling that makes me feel like I am sinking into the earth. This makes it difficult for me to identify the more subtle changes in the body, as the outside of my body seems to be constantly tickling, and I feel a strong constraction in my gut today, even without doing the lie exercise.

Warm regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Not too much difference, the body sensations become a little bit lighter perhaps

It doesn't have to be much, and you are developing your noticing reflex here.

Yes I am staying longer and longer with the sensations. Sometimes when meditating, and kind of getting the right pointer, it feels like attention get shifted back to me and my body gets under a lot of tension (I have had this maybe 10 times the past half year), where I will even start shaking a bit, and then it mostly ends up with cramps in my hips, on that moment I release the tension with some breathing exercises. Do you think I should stick with that tension?

Stick with the tension as long as you can. 'My story' is that this tension has been held at bay in the body/NS for a long time and now has the opportunity to move through. Try and hold a neutral space with gentle curiosity, and you can add more benign sensations to the sensation field such as touching your face with your hand, feeling where your body meets its support (Butt-chair or back-bed). Notice the sound field, the visual field. A kaleidoscope of sensory experience. And breathing exercise is really great.
Finally, have you heard of TRE? Releasing tension through body tremors? This is another way to release tension.

There is no one with agency in fact, it is all just one big happening, that is clear to me.

a big YES to that! <3

When using 'I am' the attention or experience of sensations is more contracted around the face, when loosing the 'I am' it moves more the the heart/chest area. Not using the I am seems to create a bit more space, through which the attention can float freely over the body. So it is more spacious. It seems to be a little bit more releasing.

Yes!

Yes there is just the experiencing happening. Even when I get lost in thoughts, it is just happening. There is no me choosing that, and there is no me to blame for it and there is no me create the thoughts and there is no me to get me out of the thoughts. Still they are so good in catching the attention and dragging it along for a while causing suffering. But suffering to who? What is suffering even. It is the 'painful' sensations together with a label together with an identification that it is happening to me. But there is no one to experience this. Still these sensations can't be fully embraced yet.

Even though it has been seen that there is "no one to experience this" remember that there are old 'programs' that have been running for a long time that have been erroneously interpreted as happening to a "ME". Since a ME can't be found other than as a thought, there is no ME, there NEVER WAS a ME, but there are still thoughts and sensations happening, and it will take practice to be fully with the sensations as they appear. You might well find that there are more sensations arising, randomly, intensely and for no apparent 'rational' reason.

Who or what could chose whether to embrace or not?

But there is no me and there is no her I guess. There are thoughts about it, sensations, memories (thoughts), and pictures of the past.

Yes..... it's crazy isn't it; where is she NOW, in DE which is ALL you can know as ACTUAL, other than a thought?
Think about the 'world' outside in the locality where you are NOW, can you find any of it as ACTUAL EXPERIENCE other than as the content of thought?
Is content of thought ACTUAL or is it a conceptual narrative diverting away from direct experience?
Can anything be known for sure other than what is arising in direct experience?
What could know and with what sense field can it be known

At the moment I feel sensations all over my body, like acupuncture is being done all over the body and a strong feeling in the gut (this happens when I get in deep attachment to my ex-girlfriend again, like I have been today, so I have been having it for many moments today, it is the feeling I am trying to avoid the most I can).

I really admire your courage and perseverance Thomas, this working with body sensations is not for the faint-hearted.
When we were a child we derived a sense of security from becoming attached to familiar people, places and things. This is a conditioned response. When there is loss it is registered as "painful" because there are intense body sensations, its as if the system is looking around for that familiar 'thing' which can't be found, and this triggers a sensory alarm in the system.

Keep noticing when the thoughts and sensations arise. That is already a huge step. Then observe with GENTLE CURIOSITY: is there avoidance happening or is there willingness to go towards the sensations?
What is avoiding?
What is allowing?


STREAM EXERCISE

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high.

Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture. Consider where did those preferences come from?
Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?
Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).
Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.
Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
What is found?

Do you control attention?
Do you control feelings?
Do you control choices?

3. Can anything be found for which 'you' are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Stick with the tension as long as you can. 'My story' is that this tension has been held at bay in the body/NS for a long time and now has the opportunity to move through. Try and hold a neutral space with gentle curiosity, and you can add more benign sensations to the sensation field such as touching your face with your hand, feeling where your body meets its support (Butt-chair or back-bed). Notice the sound field, the visual field. A kaleidoscope of sensory experience. And breathing exercise is really great.
Finally, have you heard of TRE? Releasing tension through body tremors? This is another way to release tension.

Okee I will do that next time, of course I am not sure when it will happen again. Have heard of TRE, but never investigated it. I can look into that as well.

Who or what could chose whether to embrace or not?

No one, it will happen when it wants to happen.

Yes..... it's crazy isn't it; where is she NOW, in DE which is ALL you can know as ACTUAL, other than a thought?
Think about the 'world' outside in the locality where you are NOW, can you find any of it as ACTUAL EXPERIENCE other than as the content of thought?
Is content of thought ACTUAL or is it a conceptual narrative diverting away from direct experience?

It is diverting from direct experience, it is completely illusionary. But yeah, such a good illusion tho

Can anything be known for sure other than what is arising in direct experience?

No all the stories are incomplate, false or manipulated. What is arising in direct experience can also not be known with words, but it can be experienced.

What could know and with what sense field can it be known

I dont know what can know, but there are the sensations in and around the body, there are sounds, there are sights, there is taste and smell (one that I am not often very aware off). All of it seems to be happening in the same space.

I really admire your courage and perseverance Thomas, this working with body sensations is not for the faint-hearted.

Well there is not way back now haha.

Keep noticing when the thoughts and sensations arise. That is already a huge step. Then observe with GENTLE CURIOSITY: is there avoidance happening or is there willingness to go towards the sensations?

It is a bit of a combination, there is a willingness to open up to it, but at some moments there is also a tendency to avoid.

What is avoiding?

Habitual behavior to not feel these sensations and thoughts about the feeling. The thoughts may tell me that this is not a state I want to be in. It is an identification with these thoughts. But what is identifying itself with them? Good question if you ask me? It is just the way my body is programmed. This whole thing about being able to control your mind is such nonsense. Than what is controlling it? It is literally the stories of thoughts that still create the idea that I am making decisions on a day and I am a free agent. But where is the decider?? Who decides what to do?

What is allowing?

Nothing is allowing as well. A thought may come up saying that I should allow or look into the sensations, but who is creating that thought? It is all happening by itself, as is the witnissing of it. The body sensations are very mild, but present when they are allowed to be, which is also happening when they are investigated.

Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

No, it just goes the path of least resistance. The water is part of the stream. The despressions in the ground are also part of the stream, because they give the water the shape it has now. And yes it is more like an ever-changing pattern. Quoting from Heraclites: You never step in the same stream twice.

1. Can you find anywhere where "you" autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No, I am the momentary product of my environment and ever changing conditions of the body and its senses. There is no seperate me to be found, or a me that stays the same throughout time. There is only the happening in this moment.

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens.

What to make fore lunch. I feel sensations in the body that indicate to me that I need to get into action and make a lunch. Then a thought arises that I should make some eggs. Another thought comes up that gives the option of making some oats. There is not much left in the house and the family is making soup. I ask if anyone wants tosties, they want to, so we also make tosties.

At the moment of writing this I feeling sensations in the body that feel a little uncomfortable. A thought arises that I should maybe play the guitar. Another thought comes up that I should keep doing the inquiry. For now I remain with the inquiry and feel the sensations that are accompanying this choice. It appears that I am consciously making a decision, but from where. What if I drop the thought that there is a me making a decision and choosing. The sensations in the body intensify and I notice more tension and contraction in the body. It is just a thought saying I made the decision. But what is making the choice actually? No idea. Strong feeling in the chest and forehead now. Still can't find myself. Who is actually looking or searching for a me? The space feels more peaceful after asking that question. But a thought telling me that there is no one to find is also a thought. I realize this whole process is completely out of my hands, because there is no 'conscious' action that gives me insights, it all happens quite random. The felt sensations also seem to be influencing the direction I am flowing. Feeling uncomfortable makes me want to grab my guitar to get distracted. It feels like such a strong bodily urge to seek distraction, almost the feeling of an addiction.

Consider that there are environmental factors, consider any preferences like color, shape and texture. Consider where did those preferences come from?

Those preferences for the lunch are just there. I did not decide to have these preferences. They are there in the moment, might change on a different moment, but I did not even consider them for the lunch. Those preferences are build up on past experiences, combined with the momentary situation and environment, but I was not actively aware of them.

Was any autonomous intervention actually involved?

No, it was an interplay between (unconscious) preferences, the possibilities in the environment, the influence of other people, thoughts arising and sensations in the body. Nothing was operating seperate from its environment.

Consider any practical issues (such as what is available).

Yeah there was not much available, so soup and tosti's seemed one of the few and easy choices. There were no eggs, so it was impossible to make eggs, despite the first thought was aiming for eggs. There was only froozen cheese and a limited amount of slices of bread, so we still needed to be creative, but all collectively we managed to make some tosties.

Consider the time factor, i.e. for preparation.

Yes, this was very easy to make and fast, and everyone was on board, so timewise it was ideal.

Consider the purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc.

Finding something that everyone would like was a purpose that needed to be served. Also it was important to get enough proteins and therefore the cheese was required. Also it needed to taste well, because I want to enjoy my food. Also, we did not have too much time because my mom needed to go to work. The main purpose was to have a nice and filling meal together.

Where in all of the above is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?
What is found?

Within this whole process I was part of the environment and did not feel like an autonomous entity, but more as a collective. There were thoughts coming up for serving my own needs, but I was still dependent on the circumstances and the others. Most of it was not in my hands. Can I find any central excecutive seperate from the making and eating of the lunch? No. Whatever happened was clearly influenced by the environment. My initial thoughts about what I wanted for lunch were not met, so it naturally adjusted. I was part of the flow of life, like always.

Do you control attention?

No, attention is wherever it is. I can only notice it, but I am definitely not in control of it. If someone is making a lot of noise, and it is destracting me while working, I cant control my attention to not focus on the noise. If it does, it does.

Do you control feelings?

Nope, there is no me to begin with. So there are feelings arising and passing. Completely dependent on the environment, the thoughts and perhaps other factors. But I am not choosing a particular feeling. Otherwise I would prefer having good feelings the majority of the time, but I don't have those. NO control whatsoever.

Do you control choices?

Same thing here. I don't control the thoughts that come up. I don't control the possibilities on where to choose from. I don't control what the body feels like in the moment a choice happens. But yes, it feels like someone is making a choices consciously. But it is just a feeling and a thought. Where is this me? hahaha. I am feeling some frustration now for never being able to find myself, but somehow still living in the illusionary perspective that this is the case. Although perceptions are changing lately. And also the frustration is dissapearing realizing that it is a thought. The sensations in the body can be there, I can't control them.

3. Can anything be found for which 'you' are responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

Not for my thoughts, not for my feelings, not for typing these words, not for what I say, not for the shame that I feel now thinking about things I had said in the past, not for the attention moving the the sound of the clock, not for thinking about a snack now, now for feeling a contraction in the chest, not for having a thought about a 'me', not for getting distracted by thoughts, not for feeling lonely, not for the suffering, not for thinking that I am not enlightened and believing that thought. Nothing, nada.

With love,
Thomas