Please help me push through

[Elad]

Hi Scott, beautiful to hear this from you!

And the sharings are meaningful to this process. We want "the heart" in it :)

Focusing on no choice made me feel sorry for the my past self who was self suppressing so much when infact he had no choice but to experience what he experienced and feel what he felt.

This a beautiful compassion.

Yes no choice about the feelings and impulses. Also no choice about the early initiation of increased control behavior (without a controller), planning (without a planner) and suppression (without a...).

And no one in control of changing it now, as pointers and clarity do their thing by themselves, and helpful actions and looking and feeling and discovery happens naturally.

How does that feel?

Exercise for you:

Dance for 15+ minutes alone. Every time the way you move feels repetitive or boring or disconnected try something new. Play with qualities (fast/slow, hard/soft, fiery/watery, earthy/airy, angelic/animalistic, happy/sad, aggressive/tender, etc. etc.). In every moment where something new happens (or don't happen) notice also: what chooses that, what created that, can it be found? Is there anything outside spontaneous natural process of the whole?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

And no one in control of changing it now, as pointers and clarity do their thing by themselves, and helpful actions and looking and feeling and discovery happens naturally.

How does that feel?

I really see it that way too, I‘ve found over the past weeks that things are just happening by themselves, small realizations, feelings of anger or sadness popping up. It makes me better understand the Buddhist concept that life holds up a mirror for you.

How does that make me feel?, well unfortunately tonight I’m a bit tired and not feeling much, I have this „I know it all“ voice inside my head just now, and he is not wanting to budge.

Earlier reflecting on no choice and relaxing for an hour, I was feeling how unnecessary it is to avoid or have an opinion on seeing, hearing, thinking, feeling - as we are going to see and hear and think and feel whether we want to or not (no choice) Everything seemed to be more simultaneous and it brought a feeling of innocence which felt very nice.

Later I went to a shopping center and was feeling a bit tense, probably I wanted too hard to have this relaxed mindset. I didn‘t try and rationalize it too much. I was just being aware of the tension as well as other things going on around me, rather than building a story around it and escaping from the immediate feeling.

Thanks very much for the dance exercise. I have a nice room where I can do that :)

With love
Scott

[Elad]

Hi Scott, good good.

What you describe is classic! Selfing co-opting the experiences of seeing that there is no separate self, efforting not to effort...


How can illusory you see through illusory you?

How can confused effort let go of confused effort?

Let me know how it goes with the dance exercise.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

How can illusory you see through illusory you?

It cannot, yet thinking about all this stuff builds up a compulsion to get past it.

How can confused effort let go of confused effort?

I know the effort is wasted, yet the compulsion is there.

Earlier today. I was asking myself, why do I still need to search for something, feel I need to understand something. After asking myself this, it seems I want an emotional resolution to all those times I've been hurt. I want to have a nice bow wrapped around the whole thing, with a feeling that "I" have overcome / surpassed those hurts and have proved myself superior.

I asked myself "how do I know I am hurt?" and hey, there is no "I" behind the feeling anyway, there is just the feeling and the various ideas around the idea-of-myself caught in their own little trap.

There is a danger I can take the wrong approach and get neurotic with this stuff, I know it's important to build up pressure and to push but at the same time, if I feel muddle headed then pushing will lead nowhere. I think I need to meditate more to calm things down.

I guess if my activity is making me more self centered then it is an inidication that it is the wrong approach. Even though I really do understand that I'm not in control of my activity - wow writing that last bit shocked me - I still think I am in control of the "MASTER PLAN" somehow.

ok off to dance :)

With love
Scott

[Elad]

wow writing that last bit shocked me - I still think I am in control of the "MASTER PLAN" somehow.

This is great. Nothing is needed but this seeing that happens by itself. Nothing in the behaviors needs to change in order for it to be seen as it is (not independent, without an independent center, just the whole being/expressing).

If you analyze what I write here "as a method" or "as an instruction", it gets confusing. But if you only let it be, only see, only this by itself...

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

This is great. Nothing is needed but this seeing that happens by itself. Nothing in the behaviors needs to change in order for it to be seen as it is (not independent, without an independent center, just the whole being/expressing).

Thanks for this, "nothing in the behaviours needs to change", reading this brings a feeling of calm.

The dancing was a lot of fun. It's a complete mystery where those moves were coming from xD. It's such a nice way to observe no-control and a light hearted and fun way too, which is what is needed for me, so thanks for the great suggestion. I'll definitely do it again today :)

I feel, just looking at the world and is what is going on around me is a big teacher. The world is showing me there is no need for all this conceptual stuff. The world just IS and is constantly changing and happening as is the part of the world which is "my" mind-and-body.

What is it like to have no concept of self? Then all there is seeing, listening, thinking, feeling. When we are young we have no concept of self, we are just out there.

With love
Scott

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

On my dog walk today, I was observing I have a real need to watch my thoughts and not let them flow freely. There is a fear of letting go. If I don't have "this" (need to watch thoughts/fear of letting go) then I have nothing, seems very sad, I'd rather have fear than nothing.

Even though I feel I don't control my thoughts, there is still this fear, I wonder if it's related to fear of punishment. I heard from my father so many times every day from an early age "to get with it", usually in an angry undertone, I always ignored this advice as much as I could, because I knew I was naturally a bit of a day dreamer xD, but I really heard it a lot and for many years and I was crying a lot about it a week ago (for the first time).

And then I felt, appreciating, experiencing things fully (even thoughts) is a very important part of life and how can I do this, with this little "I" there not letting a natural observation take place. Also that being free to experience thoughts, feelings naturally means dropping the assumption that "there is something wrong up there".

My father let himself express impatience and frustration with me a lot which impacted me quite deeply more than the words. I have this feeling deep down I have to do something or change something to get his acceptance which is still be important to me. Saying "there is nothing wrong with me", feels like I'm lying.

Thanks and with love
Scott

[Elad]

You are in a good process. There is no real little I that needs to be dropped... No thoughts need to be dropped or changed either. Just see how it is and how it moves. Just feel. I will give you an exercise also.


Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where Scott autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which Scott is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

I have a lot going on today, and will slow down tomorrow and consider your reply tomorrow. :)

In the meantime, I also wanted to mention what I said

And then I felt, appreciating, experiencing things fully (even thoughts) is a very important part of life and how can I do this, with this little "I" there not letting a natural observation take place. Also that being free to experience thoughts, feelings naturally means dropping the assumption that "there is something wrong up there".

and then what you said

There is no real little I that needs to be dropped... No thoughts need to be dropped or changed either.

I assume I guess, that this act of seeing the self as an illusion starts a natural process of dissociation of thought, allowing for more natural observation of phenonema, perhaps this is my expectation...

Thanks
With love

Scott

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

Is it as simple as understanding that the "I" in my head is "not actually me", that there is no real me, it's just a thing my head calling itself "I"? It has nothing to do with anything?

I'm feeling this just now, and know that everything is just happening as-is, the feeling of "I" is there as normal but I can see that's all it is, a feeling of "I", there doesn't need to be any weight or meaning attached to it.

with love
Scott

[Elad]

Good movement!

Write more about this............

So what is this "feeling" of I? Where, when, how?

How does it feel to see this?

And what does it mean it is "in my head"?

Only direct experience.

[Scotty]

Hi Elad,

So what is this "feeling" of I? Where, when, how?

It is the same as it ever was, this sense of something accompanying the thoughts and feelings.

How does it feel to see this?

It feels really freeing, that this is just a part of how the brain works. It has no identity, there was no reason to build anything around it.

And what does it mean it is "in my head"?

Technically this is wrong, there is no “me” there is the mind-body which has thought and feelings and this sense of “looking at” thought and feelings. This “sense of looking at” has been built up into a person with a history and a strong identity.

With love

Scott

[Elad]

Great!

Here is another couple of exercises for you to deepen the clarity. I think you maybe did one of them before, if that is the case, please do again with beginners mind:



Raising Hand Exercise

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.

2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

What is it that is controlling the hand?

How is the decision made?




Body Exercise

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

[Scotty]

H Elad,

Hand Exercise

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

I cannot find a separate individual

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I cannot find a separate individual controlling the hand, the body just moves.

How is the decision made?

Sometimes there seems to be no decision, sometimes a thought or a feeling comes to lift a certain hand, but there is no "I" behind the thought or feeling.

Body Exercise

Can it be known how tall the body is?

There is no feeling or awareness of height with the eyes closed.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

There is a sensation caused by sitting on a chair, but it is just a sensation

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, there is no shape or form experienced.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

The clothes on my body and the weight of my body on the chair causes sensations, but I wouldn't speak of a boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside?

Yes, with my eyes closed, there is the feeling that I am behind my eyes in my head, seeing darkness. Sounds I feel are coming from an outside.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

I don't know, this makes me question my answer above.

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I don't know I guess it is just conditioning, labeling which causes the association.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

I'm not sure I get this question, the word/label 'body' has the dictionary definition of referring to the human body, but in actuality for me it refers to sensations of touch or stiff or sore muscles. So the actual experience of the body is pure sensation.

I see the value of these questions of questioning if the experience of "I" has any relation to the body.

After having this shift in perspective two days ago, I couldn't sleep well because I was so exhilarated from this feeling. The next day I was working quite intensely and didn't have much time to relax or reflect. Today I was thinking about this feeling a lot and conceptualizing and wanting to recapture it which just made for a lack of clarity.

I hope to find some time to relax and reflect some more soon

With love
Scott

[Elad]

Dear Scott,

Lots of clarity. Where things gets confused, is you still refer to stuff like "the head", "the cloth, "the chair", as if it is direct experience, rather then ideas/representations. However we don't necessarily need to get more into that, it's like another layer of exploration, and here in LU we just want to see beyond doubt that the separate self/agent is an illusory belief, deeply and habitually held.

So right now, if someone came and said to you "in fact there is a separate self, and you are that", what reactions come up, thoughts and feelings?