I want to break free!

[ty0]

Has it never made sense to you?

Hahah, thoughts certainly felt more "inside" once upon a time

It's a challenging one to describe, but I'll try. So if there is looking and inquiring into if there are any boundaries, the experience is that there's not. If there is just looking, but no inquiry, there is sort of a subtle habit of believing I am the body, and the body is the boundary between the internal and external. If there is no looking, only total immersion in direct experience, this isn't even an issue. Does that make sense?

Sure, but what body? Close your eyes and feel the sensations, are they localised in any way? If they feel localised, is that not just you imagining some mental map and assigning sensations to imagined locations on that imagined map? Is there even a body or just the imagination of a body?

and it has gotten even worse after not knowing who I am anymore.

When you say "not knowing who I am anymore", what does the "I' in that sentence refer to?


2 exercises for you to try:
1) Stare at your face in the mirror. What is "your face"? Stare until the labels drop.
2) Close your eyes and feel the sensations. Where are the sensations? Are they anywhere? What is "where"?

[Sonofnature]

Sure, but what body? Close your eyes and feel the sensations, are they localised in any way? If they feel localised, is that not just you imagining some mental map and assigning sensations to imagined locations on that imagined map? Is there even a body or just the imagination of a body?

I can see what you are pointing to, but the imagined bodymap still feels real even after seeing this. Has that changed over apparent time for you with continuous looking?

When you say "not knowing who I am anymore", what does the "I' in that sentence refer to?

A bit of clumsy wording there. What I was getting at is that before I began self-inquiry, I had an identity that I thought was myself. After seeing through the identity I had constructed, there are still habitual beliefs about needing to control my life, even though I understand that it's all conditioning and what is happening.

2 exercises for you to try:
1) Stare at your face in the mirror. What is "your face"? Stare until the labels drop.
2) Close your eyes and feel the sensations. Where are the sensations? Are they anywhere? What is "where"?

1) Will get back to you on this one...
2) Where is here. 😅 Everything is here...

I joined Vince's meeting for the first time today and during the call I asked the question "How does one know when one is awake?" The answers I got didn't really satisfy my curiosity and John Lee said I should ask you. So this is me asking you 😁

[ty0]

A bit of clumsy wording there. What I was getting at is that before I began self-inquiry, I had an identity that I thought was myself. After seeing through the identity I had constructed, there are still habitual beliefs about needing to control my life, even though I understand that it's all conditioning and what is happening.

So what do you take to be yourself now? If "I" was the identity and you lost the identity, what does the "I" refer to now?

I can see what you are pointing to, but the imagined bodymap still feels real even after seeing this. Has that changed over apparent time for you with continuous looking?

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. This is about the inside/outside thing. In your experience, there's the thought "body", and then how do you categorise different parts of experience as inside or outside the body? It's the same with the subject-object thing. Even if something is "inside", you still see it, and it doesn't really exist in a different space from the "outside" stuff, does it? Isn't it all in experience, just as both subject and object are?

I joined Vince's meeting for the first time today and during the call I asked the question "How does one know when one is awake?" The answers I got didn't really satisfy my curiosity and John Lee said I should ask you. So this is me asking you 😁

Hahah sure. There's no such thing as being awake in experience. There can only be the thought "I'm awake" or "I'm not awake" in experience. For a lot of the questions you have, check your direct experience for the answer. If you can't find the answer in direct experience, then ask yourself what kind of assumptions are behind the question. It's often going to be layers of thought on top of layers of thought.

What are you looking for Marius? I'm not really sure what you're looking for. Are you?

[Sonofnature]

So what do you take to be yourself now? If "I" was the identity and you lost the identity, what does the "I" refer to now?

Under normal circumstances, "I" doesn't really refer to anything anymore, maybe a subtle "I" sense if I look for an "I", but that is just thought constructing an "I" because there is looking for one, but if there are situations where there are intense emotions that is interpreted as stressful, there is a feeling of contraction and an identification with that contraction. In those cases, "I" refers to the contraction until it calms down a bit and remembering happens.

Yeah, but that doesn't really matter. This is about the inside/outside thing. In your experience, there's the thought "body", and then how do you categorise different parts of experience as inside or outside the body? It's the same with the subject-object thing. Even if something is "inside", you still see it, and it doesn't really exist in a different space from the "outside" stuff, does it? Isn't it all in experience, just as both subject and object are?

You're right. But there seems to be some sort of habitual overlay on this that makes it feel like inside/outside as well as subject/object if I don't look with the "lens" of this perspective. Is it a matter of reminding myself to keep looking until this overlay dissolves over "time"?

Hahah sure. There's no such thing as being awake in experience. There can only be the thought "I'm awake" or "I'm not awake" in experience. For a lot of the questions you have, check your direct experience for the answer. If you can't find the answer in direct experience, then ask yourself what kind of assumptions are behind the question. It's often going to be layers of thought on top of layers of thought.

What are you looking for Marius? I'm not really sure what you're looking for. Are you?

I am looking for the cessation of resistance to life. Contentment.
I am looking for a stable and clear seeing to the point where I would be able to guide like you are guiding me.

[ty0]

I am looking for the cessation of resistance to life. Contentment.
I am looking for a stable and clear seeing to the point where I would be able to guide like you are guiding me.

If there is no contentment, there is no contentment. If there is no stable and clear seeing, there is no stable and clear seeing. That's it. You're chasing ghosts. There is no future in which these things are possible for you because there is no future. Do you grasp that this is it? When I say "there is no future", I'm not speaking in a technical, intellectual, or spiritual way. I'm speaking very literally. Where is the future? Why do you imagine a future?

You're right. But there seems to be some sort of habitual overlay on this that makes it feel like inside/outside as well as subject/object if I don't look with the "lens" of this perspective. Is it a matter of reminding myself to keep looking until this overlay dissolves over "time"?

You ask this question to get closer to your goal. How many more questions do you think you'll need answered before you're "done"?

You say you're looking for a cessation of resistance, but doing that is resistance. Of course you can't be content, because you're resisting. Of course resistance won't cease, because you're actively resisting resistance. The thing you're looking for doesn't exist except as your own imagination. It doesn't exist outside of the narrative of you seeking it.

It seems like you may not want contentment, you just want to seek contentment. But of course, I could be totally wrong.

[Sonofnature]

If there is no contentment, there is no contentment. If there is no stable and clear seeing, there is no stable and clear seeing. That's it. You're chasing ghosts. There is no future in which these things are possible for you because there is no future. Do you grasp that this is it? When I say "there is no future", I'm not speaking in a technical, intellectual, or spiritual way. I'm speaking very literally. Where is the future? Why do you imagine a future?

The future is in my imagination. I imagine a future because I am not accepting what is now and a thought/desire for something else, and so I project what I want into a constructed future with a belief that life eventually will condition me in a way that I stop imagining a future and by doing so finding contentment and stable clear seeing in the now. So, in short, there is still a belief that time exists, even though I intellectually see how the past is only thoughts/memories and the future is only thoughts/imagination.

You ask this question to get closer to your goal. How many more questions do you think you'll need answered before you're "done"?

There is a belief that there will be a shift at some point that will lead to a cessation of questions.

You say you're looking for a cessation of resistance, but doing that is resistance. Of course you can't be content, because you're resisting. Of course resistance won't cease, because you're actively resisting resistance. The thing you're looking for doesn't exist except as your own imagination. It doesn't exist outside of the narrative of you seeking it.

It seems like you may not want contentment, you just want to seek contentment. But of course, I could be totally wrong.

I see what you are saying and it does seem to be the case.. If one can't stop resisting resistance, then in reality, that is what is. But then there is resisting the resistance of resistance, and on and on it goes... And so, the only way "forward" is acceptance of what is... But if that is not possible now, then there is stuckness in resistance. 😅

[ty0]

So, in short, there is still a belief that time exists, even though I intellectually see how the past is only thoughts/memories and the future is only thoughts/imagination.

How? Do you not see this in direct experience as well? Where is the future? I don't understand how you can decide that there is still a belief in the future when you can look at your experience and see that there's no future. If you don't directly see a future now, and you "intellectually see" that there's no future, how do you believe in the future? It's like Santa Claus at this point 😂😂

There is a belief that there will be a shift at some point that will lead to a cessation of questions.

Why? Because you've read about other people's experiences where that happens, and you believe in those stories, and then you imagine that that will happen to you too? Even "at some point" is imagination, there's only this point.

I see what you are saying and it does seem to be the case.. If one can't stop resisting resistance, then in reality, that is what is. But then there is resisting the resistance of resistance, and on and on it goes... And so, the only way "forward" is acceptance of what is... But if that is not possible now, then there is stuckness in resistance. 😅

No no no, there is no way "forward", that's just your imagination. There's no way anywhere because there's only this. There's only "stuckness" in resistance because you resist it. You're imagining resistance being there in the future and you're remembering resistance being there in the past. There's only this. You wouldn't say there's "stuckness" in joy. Stuckness is only a belief.

[Sonofnature]

How? Do you not see this in direct experience as well? Where is the future? I don't understand how you can decide that there is still a belief in the future when you can look at your experience and see that there's no future. If you don't directly see a future now, and you "intellectually see" that there's no future, how do you believe in the future? It's like Santa Claus at this point 😂😂

You're right! There is nothing in direct experience that is problematic. There is only what is. There was an urge to keep asking questions because there were subtle thoughts about wanting to somehow prevent not getting hooked by thoughts in the future, which of course is ridiculous because believing those thoughts was keeping me in thoughts. 😅

Why? Because you've read about other people's experiences where that happens, and you believe in those stories, and then you imagine that that will happen to you too? Even "at some point" is imagination, there's only this point.

Basically, yes! The stories that point to "crossing the gate" or stories about a "pop". I see now how a belief in something happening keeps me in expectations that create hooks into thoughts relating to this.

No no no, there is no way "forward", that's just your imagination. There's no way anywhere because there's only this. There's only "stuckness" in resistance because you resist it. You're imagining resistance being there in the future and you're remembering resistance being there in the past. There's only this. You wouldn't say there's "stuckness" in joy. Stuckness is only a belief.

I see what you are saying. If there is fear, there is either resistance to fear or acceptance of fear. That is what is. Fear is just an interpretation and a label that has been put on an intense sensation that is imagined is in the stomach based on the bodymap that is imagined.

There is clear seeing of this now. Full stop.

[Sonofnature]

Hey Tyler!

How are you, brother? There is a question that keeps popping up here. Life here has changed quite a bit over the months of doing this work (before I joined LU), and most noticeably the lack of interest and motivation to do stuff.

I know that I am not the doer and never have been, but life seems to stand still where I am just staying home. Seeking had pretty much dropped away as well.

This has lead me to notice a subtle feeling of restlessness. It's not strong, but it's there. I have tried sitting with it and a question comes up about if this is a period that will pass or if this is just how life is now. And I have sat with the question if the answer is that this is how life is now, where there still is a belief hanging on about life not being about just staying at home doing nothing.

Does this sound familiar to you?

[ty0]

You're feeling restlessness because you're trying to come to a conclusion. You're trying to get an answer and make a judgement about how things are so that you can be "done". You're in between "This is how life is now" and "This is a period that will pass". The thing is, you don't know, and I don't know, and no one knows. There's no definite way that things are, so the certainty you're looking for can't be found.

The question is, what do you want to do? If the answer is nothing, then you'll do nothing, for now. Why judge that? Maybe you won't want to do anything for the rest of your life, maybe tomorrow you'll want to go start a semiconductor business.

[Sonofnature]

You're feeling restlessness because you're trying to come to a conclusion. You're trying to get an answer and make a judgement about how things are so that you can be "done". You're in between "This is how life is now" and "This is a period that will pass". The thing is, you don't know, and I don't know, and no one knows. There's no definite way that things are, so the certainty you're looking for can't be found.

The question is, what do you want to do? If the answer is nothing, then you'll do nothing, for now. Why judge that? Maybe you won't want to do anything for the rest of your life, maybe tomorrow you'll want to go start a semiconductor business.

Hehehe, that is pretty much what is happening, yes. 😅 Thank you. I keep "concluding" that getting comfortable with uncertainty and that stopping trying to make sense of things is a good idea, but I also keep getting sucked into thoughts and sensemaking when uncertainty hangs around for too long.

[ty0]

Hahah. So this happens. What's wrong?

Anyway, the main thing is always what the uncertainty is about. If you're uncertain about whether this lack of motivation will pass or not, the delusion there is imagining that there is a future in which things will continue to be this way or be different. But why are you worried about that? Is it because you don't like the lack of motivation and staying at home?

Like you said, is there a belief about this being "bad" that is causing some unpleasant emotions? Are you asking me if this lack of motivation will pass because you want to know that these unpleasant emotions will pass? So that you can imagine a future where you feel different instead of having to feel the way you feel now?

I'm just speculating, let me know if any of that sounds accurate.

[Sonofnature]

Is it because you don't like the lack of motivation and staying at home?

That is accurate, yes. There is a story about life being too precious to be sitting on the couch all day and this story is hooked into another story about the fact that I have been on sick leave for an apparent 10 months due to severe burnout and most likely will need to find another type of work than I have been doing for the last apparent 20 years. This story is what is causing the sense of uncomfortableness about the lack of motivation and interests.

Like you said, is there a belief about this being "bad" that is causing some unpleasant emotions? Are you asking me if this lack of motivation will pass because you want to know that these unpleasant emotions will pass? So that you can imagine a future where you feel different instead of having to feel the way you feel now?

I guess I am asking you to validate my experience as a common thing, based on your own "journey" and on interactions you have had with others on their "journey". And yes, it is obvious (after you pointing it out) that I am asking this to feel better about my situation.

[ty0]

Do you have things you enjoy doing?

There is a story about life being too precious to be sitting on the couch all day and this story is hooked into another story about the fact that I have been on sick leave for an apparent 10 months due to severe burnout and most likely will need to find another type of work than I have been doing for the last apparent 20 years. This story is what is causing the sense of uncomfortableness about the lack of motivation and interests.

Does it bother you to think about others who spend their lives essentially doing nothing? Or is it only heavy when it's about YOUR life? Jeremy talked about this at the meeting.

Why judge what you're doing? What if you die tomorrow? Would it have made a difference if you spent the last 10 months working or sitting on the couch? What is worth doing to you? Is there a conflict here because the things you believe are "worth doing" are not what you want to do?

[Sonofnature]

Do you have things you enjoy doing?

To be honest, there isn't a whole lot of things I enjoy doing. For the past 15 years or so I have been totally obsessed about getting liberated from my suffering. The things I did enjoy doing was either related to "inner work" in some way or another, or they were related to stories about things that would make self feel better in one way or another. The latter has pretty much dropped, which is what I am pointing to in the lack of motivation.

So currently, I enjoy this, what you and I are doing now or something related to this work. Other than that there are simple things, like walking and spending time with my wife, dog, and cat. During the summer I like to hike and camp in nature, and occasionally I like to meet friends, though I have a more difficult time relating to most of them, so there is less of that.

Does it bother you to think about others who spend their lives essentially doing nothing? Or is it only heavy when it's about YOUR life? Jeremy talked about this at the meeting.

I would say it definitely bothers me more when it's about MY life, as I feel like other peoples life is none of my business, but I can perhaps also be bothered if I see someone close to me "waste" their life in the same way.

Why judge what you're doing? What if you die tomorrow? Would it have made a difference if you spent the last 10 months working or sitting on the couch? What is worth doing to you? Is there a conflict here because the things you believe are "worth doing" are not what you want to do?

Yes, and what's funny is that I don't even have an idea of WHAT it is that is "worth doing". There is just a desire to get the most out of life, whatever that means. 😅

I guess when we come down to it, it's about distracting from just being in here in reality by creating apparent problems that the mind can latch on to.