idontknow

[Mokomiko]

When it felt close, how hard were you trying? How intensely were you analysing and trying to figure things out?

I was definitely more focused on the practice, and less tired.
Not so much trying maybe but just sitting, looking, not falling asleep.

Does it feel like the harder you try, the more it escapes you?

Yes, it does. But it’s tricky. Because those moments of not trying come after those of trying very hard. After I’m tired and frustrated usually comes a moment of quietude and then “something happens”. I just don’t know how to do it differently- I tend to swing from trying hard to being tired of trying, but I cannot naturally find the balance between the two.

Are things tough? Or are the things going on in your head tough? What about now? What's tough now?

Well, I can see that what’s tough is my relation to the experience, what I think about it makes it tough. I’m physically very tired but I guess I wouldn’t have been if I had been more aware and hadn’t gone lost in judgements.
What’s making it tough now is me believing the thoughts - I can see that. Somehow, I got sucked into this thoughts vortex when so much was happening. There was a lot of internal fighting because of the belief it shouldn’t be like this.

Yes, I’m in nature - I’ll try and let it do it’s thing ;) I’m slowly getting my strength back and was able to meditate or just sit today without falling asleep…

Thank you:)

[ty0]

Yes, it does. But it’s tricky. Because those moments of not trying come after those of trying very hard. After I’m tired and frustrated usually comes a moment of quietude and then “something happens”.

What's between you and those moments now? Do you feel the need to try hard because you "know" from past experience that you have to first try hard, then sometime later in the future you'll have that kind of moment? What about this moment? What is there other than now? Isn't your imagined future about feeling better and more quiet and whatever also happening now? Can you see that the future is just a thought now and doesn't actually exist?

[Mokomiko]

Your comment somehow makes me cry. I don’t fully understand why. I guess I feel hopeless, I cry for this little one that fights and kicks so much, there’s also some grief or sorrow that comes with seeing there’s only now.

What is there other than now?

Now is just peaceful. I can see that there’s nothing other than now. When I really look into thoughts I can see that past/future are just a thought. But then the illusion of time is still strong, there’s some planning of what I’ll do later and then the memory of it. Even if I see those as thoughts it seems linear. It doesn’t make sense really…

What's between you and those moments now?

I don’t know. My mind goes blank… nothing, a memory = a thought? It’s just this moment…

Do you feel the need to try hard because you "know" from past experience that you have to first try hard, then sometime later in the future you'll have that kind of moment?

I guess there are lots of BELIEFS here:
- that only if I try hard something will happen.
- That it requires effort/dedication. It seems to have been so in the past.
- That it will happen in the future.
- And even though I have no idea what’s it like this that I’m looking for, there’s this part that wants to control it, how or when it should happen. This controlling part is really subtle because I wouldn’t even know consciously how to control it. This wanting control is strong in my life in general- I’m observing it in many areas of my life just letting go whenever I can. I can see how much suffering and tension comes with it.

[ty0]

Let's focus on the juicy emotion. Why is there sorrow seeing that there's only this? What's wrong with this? Is there anything wrong with this your belief about how this should be better?

Nothing is going to happen in the future. Thoughts about things happening in the future happen now. THIS is all you have. You can struggle and resist and fight against this, but it's still only this. So what's the point? Isn't all that struggling where the suffering comes from? Go ahead and try all you want though :)

Also, wanna schedule a call sometime maybe this Friday/weekend or next? I think it's good timing around this territory

[Mokomiko]

There is nothing wrong with now or this.
It’s just stopping and seeing all this struggle and effort, I’m not sure what’s crying- it’s like letting go of things in this now, in this moment of stopping. There’s pity for me that struggles, that is tense and trying hard. I’m feeling sorrow but am not sure why, in all honesty I cannot find the reason for it - i just sit with it for a while until it dissolves and again when it comes up. While looking and meditating today in the morning I cried a bit again, just let it, and it was short lived. In general there’s this feeling of melancholy or sadness similar to what I experienced when I had to say goodbye to someone or when the summer was ending.

But also there’s a bit of fear when reading “there’s only now”, that I don’t have anything else. There’s nothing to hold on to, no sense of security (as if there was ever one).

Something has changed a bit though. I’m finally just looking I guess, something has relaxed. I’m finding those moments before labels happen. In seeing colours and shapes. In hearing or smelling. I’m looking for the gap between for example- hearing and the hearer, smelling and the one that smells, looking and the looker. I cannot find it… This is easier to see if I’m completely still. Interactions with others or movement seem to disturb it.

I’m wondering - I’ve been with those questions about myself, who/where am I for some time now. I cannot find anyone and yet there’s this sense of experiencing everything from the body. Despite not being able to find anyone in it, despite experiencing sort of empty gaze or my hands being strangely not mine - still there’s a sense of “centrality”.

As I’m sitting now - there’s awareness of the body, of the wind, of seeing, hearing, touching etc. If awareness is of the body it cannot be in the body - can it? But if the awareness is outside of the body- I should be able to feel or see from the perspective of something or somebody else. Why the centrality, where does it come from? But that’s maybe too much thinking right now…

Also, wanna schedule a call sometime maybe this Friday/weekend or next? I think it's good timing around this territory

With pleasure! This weekend is ok, preferably not in the middle of the day, mornings or late afternoon would be fine. I don’t want to sound picky - it’s just I’m on holiday and will be coming back on Monday. And usually I’m engaged in some activities with my husband during the day, and some spontaneous activities may pop up. Next weekend - for example on the 6th of Oct - I’m free so whatever suits you. On the 5th I’m working but will be free from 3 p.m. I’m based in Poland, that is CET. :)

Thank you so much for being here for me! Much appreciation!

[ty0]

With pleasure! This weekend is ok, preferably not in the middle of the day, mornings or late afternoon would be fine. I don’t want to sound picky - it’s just I’m on holiday and will be coming back on Monday. And usually I’m engaged in some activities with my husband during the day, and some spontaneous activities may pop up.

Be as picky as you want 😂. This weekend morning (your time) works for me, it's GMT+8 here. Is Saturday or Sunday better for you? Next weekend is fine too. Email me at 27leetyler@gmail.com so we can schedule

As I’m sitting now - there’s awareness of the body, of the wind, of seeing, hearing, touching etc. If awareness is of the body it cannot be in the body - can it? But if the awareness is outside of the body- I should be able to feel or see from the perspective of something or somebody else. Why the centrality, where does it come from? But that’s maybe too much thinking right now…

This is a trick language plays on us. What's the difference between "there are sensations" and "there is awareness of sensations"? Don't they describe the same experience of just sensations? Language can make it seem like there's a thing called "awareness" that is separate from experience, but is this anything more than a figure of speech? Where is "awareness of sensations", apart from the sensations themselves? There are even many famous teachers on Youtube who are under this impression 😂😂

You describe experiencing "from the body" as if sensations are not experienced on the same level as sights, sounds, etc.. That sense of "centrality" or "in here VS out there" is very interesting. What makes a sensation "in here" and an image "out there"?

Here's some bits of a conversation I had with someone else:
[24/09, 08:47] ty: what are you looking for when you ask the question "who?"
[24/09, 08:49] Jordan M: At this point, I don't feel I'm looking at all, and not in an intentional "don't seek" way. The answers that come are just more stuff.
[24/09, 08:50] Jordan M: "I am" does come. And it doesn't feel like it needs any extra questioning. I just am.
[24/09, 08:51] Jordan M: I tune to the senses. And just sit. I get caught in stories again. And then just come back. But I do still feel identified with something.
[24/09, 10:50] ty: what does the "i" in "i am" refer to
[24/09, 11:08] Jordan M: The sense of self. The sense of what is experiencing reality. Not even "self". Maybe the awareness of what is happening moment to moment
[24/09, 11:15] Jordan M: Which also starts to feel like a concept or label when my mind tries to figure out what the hell it is
[24/09, 11:29] Jordan M: I could say "that which is unchanging, ever present". Reality itself. I can feel the edges of that. There is still alot of mind identification in my day to day though
[24/09, 11:32] ty: what awareness?
[24/09, 11:32] ty: what's unchanging and ever present?
[24/09, 11:33] ty: dont you have to refer to memories of the past and decide that whatever this is was there then, as well as now?
[24/09, 11:34] ty: is this not just you believing thoughts about the past and time then concluding that there's something moving through time that was there "then" (because you can remember "then"), and is going to be there "later"?
[24/09, 11:35] Jordan M: Ah shit man 🤣
[24/09, 11:35] Jordan M: Got me cracking up. Yes!
[24/09, 11:35] ty: 😂😂
[24/09, 11:36] ty: when you look "now", and suspend your belief in the past/time, wtf is awareness?
[24/09, 11:36] Jordan M: It's a thought!
[24/09, 11:36] ty: yeah
[24/09, 11:36] Jordan M: Shiiiiiiit
[24/09, 11:38] Jordan M: It's always here. Cause it can't be anywhere else. Cause there's nowhere else. I see myself going into concept again now.
------------------------------------------------------
[25/09, 07:12] Jordan: So those last messages seemed to have landed well. Something about "experientially all there are are the senses and thought which aren't really separate" seems to have struck home.
[25/09, 07:12] Jordan: I don't think Ive ever heard it like that.
[25/09, 07:13] Jordan: Words are not exactly working for this
[25/09, 07:14] Jordan: Experience? I guess. That doesn't seem right.
[25/09, 07:14] Jordan: Who would experience it
[25/09, 07:28] ty: what who
[25/09, 07:28] ty: you may get the feeling that theres a subject (you) experiencing objects (experience) because language forces us to think that way
[25/09, 07:29] ty: but isnt any subject you can pinpoint in experience an "object" in experience?
[25/09, 07:30] ty: experientially theres no subject, only the thought of a subject, the thought of a "who". and is this thought not another object within experience?
[25/09, 07:30] ty: what more is "I" than a figure of speech?

[Mokomiko]

Hi Tyler,

after our talk, though disrupted there was some shift.

First of all, I finally got your earlier questions🙄😂

Only now I got (I hope) what you meant by questioning the body or eyes (how do you know you have eyes, what is a body? Is there a lemon?).

In DE there’s no body (a label), no eyes (a label), no lemon etc. but only sensations labeled as the above! Or is what you were pointing to still eluding me? 😂😂😂😂

Similarly in DE there’s no such thing as me or Karolina. There are sensations, feelings and thought to which Karolina or a me is immediately added. But Karolina/me is not there. There’s just scratching on the head. Karolina is not scratching the head. I am repeating the scratching so to make sure Karolina is not there. 😂 It’s funny how she wants to be added. There was a moment of being kind of empty.

Today in the morning I got your message about gazing in the sky.

- gazing on the sky and meadow, horizon - suddenly there was just this and I was this, but not personal I. I don’t know how to describe it better. There was no separation. It wasn’t personal. No inside, outside, not here - there. It lasted for some time, hard to say how long, it was very peaceful, spacious. After that gradually contracting back to I. There was some crying again before it contracted completely. Now it’s just like the after image of the experience. The fear wasn’t there this time, maybe just a tiny bit of elevated heart rate.

Thank you so much for tour patience and talk☺️

I will write to you about scheduling a call.

[Mokomiko]

Oh, and I didn’t see earlier your previous reply from Sept 25th, it’s as if it didn’t load bcz of my bad internet connection! Sorry. Will carefully read and reply later

[ty0]

Only now I got (I hope) what you meant by questioning the body or eyes (how do you know you have eyes, what is a body? Is there a lemon?).

In DE there’s no body (a label), no eyes (a label), no lemon etc. but only sensations labeled as the above! Or is what you were pointing to still eluding me? 😂😂😂😂

Exactly :). I'm always pointing to your direct experience, and encouraging you check your beliefs against your experience (they usually contradict 🤭🤭)

Similarly in DE there’s no such thing as me or Karolina. There are sensations, feelings and thought to which Karolina or a me is immediately added. But Karolina/me is not there. There’s just scratching on the head. Karolina is not scratching the head. I am repeating the scratching so to make sure Karolina is not there. 😂 It’s funny how she wants to be added. There was a moment of being kind of empty.

😂😂😂. Keep checking, it's pretty funny 😂. Yes, this whole thing about self comes down to "there is xyz" VS "there is a thought about xyz". When we look for "I", we only find the thought "I" and nothing it refers to apart from the thought itself.

- gazing on the sky and meadow, horizon - suddenly there was just this and I was this, but not personal I. I don’t know how to describe it better. There was no separation. It wasn’t personal. No inside, outside, not here - there. It lasted for some time, hard to say how long, it was very peaceful, spacious. After that gradually contracting back to I. There was some crying again before it contracted completely. Now it’s just like the after image of the experience. The fear wasn’t there this time, maybe just a tiny bit of elevated heart rate.

Beautiful. Look for separation. Where is here and there? What is this and that? Isn't any kind of separation only created by thought?

It's raining. As I close my eyes and hear the rain, pitter-patter, pitter-patter, there is no rain, only pitter-patter.
There is no I hearing the pitter-patter, only pitter-patter. The pitter-patter is not me, only pitter-patter.
In all the universe, now there is only pitter-patter. The pitter-patter is everything.
The breath enters attention, along with all the sensations that come with the breath.
A scent, the patterns behind the eyelids. The patterns are the sensations. The scent is the pitter-patter.
It's a symphony. A symphony of one instrument. How can any division be found here?

[Mokomiko]

Hi Tyler,

it's like a sine wave here. Calm then frustration. I can't completely see through this.

Looking into DE I cannot find a me. When I really investigate it, all I can say about "I" is that it's just a habit of thought!
But it's either a very strong habit or I haven't really seen through it. Because the experiences of being empty from Karolina or not being separate from what is just happened are a memory now.

I cannot find a me, yet it's "my body" 🫣 It seems like there's so much attachment to it plus a habitual calling it mine. All the roads seem to lead to my body, even though I cannot find a me inside it. So this "I" is not even a sense, it's more like a persistent thought which creates the illusion. When I'm peaceful and quiet I seem to be more aware of it, but when I interact with someone - it's gone, I'm lost in a me business, so to speak 😳 It's easier to see, even on a daily basis how things just happen, not being done by someone, there's no I making decisions or doing things. But then, in a conversation suddenly my beliefs pop up and strong me-feelings connected with them. 😵‍💫 So the frustration comes because I'd like to be done with a me and it doesn't want to be gone.🤣 What am I not seeing here???

Look for separation. Where is here and there? What is this and that? Isn't any kind of separation only created by thought?

I kind of, kind of get it. When I'm really quiet, all I see seems to be a screen, closer than close, kind of here. No separation between looking and the seen. But it's usually "gone" within minutes. I don't mean a screen like a thing with borders, it's just lack of a better word. It's somehow easier to see this when there's horizon, trees, sky, but is gone as soon as people appear in it. It seems to be "available" only when I'm able to keep this kind of relaxed focus (which I'm not able to hold for a longer time)😫

It's raining. As I close my eyes and hear the rain, pitter-patter, pitter-patter, there is no rain, only pitter-patter.
There is no I hearing the pitter-patter, only pitter-patter. The pitter-patter is not me, only pitter-patter.
In all the universe, now there is only pitter-patter. The pitter-patter is everything.
The breath enters attention, along with all the sensations that come with the breath.
A scent, the patterns behind the eyelids. The patterns are the sensations. The scent is the pitter-patter.
It's a symphony. A symphony of one instrument. How can any division be found here?

I don't know but it's beautiful.

This is a trick language plays on us. What's the difference between "there are sensations" and "there is awareness of sensations"? Don't they describe the same experience of just sensations? Language can make it seem like there's a thing called "awareness" that is separate from experience, but is this anything more than a figure of speech? Where is "awareness of sensations", apart from the sensations themselves? There are even many famous teachers on Youtube who are under this impression 😂😂

This is sooo good. So, it seems like awareness is mixed up with attention going to something. Like attention goes to a sound of rain, and then to an image of a flying seagull and a sound of a seagull's call, attention like a movement of... "energy", a focus. But there's no entity behind it. I get it.

You describe experiencing "from the body" as if sensations are not experienced on the same level as sights, sounds, etc.. That sense of "centrality" or "in here VS out there" is very interesting. What makes a sensation "in here" and an image "out there"?

Ha ha, it seems like sensations are closer to the body... I kind of know it's an illusion. I can see how a thought informs me about a distance. But I have to sort of focus on it to see it, it's not immediate. It's like the sensations are closest, then sounds then sight. The sight is the trickiest - as immediately after opening the eyes there's a feeling (maybe a thought) of seeing by/from the eyes, turning the head around informs me there are things around the body, thus it feels central... I remember the feeling of no separateness I described earlier, it was different, but not here anymore. Then this "screen" is seen and distance suddenly is not so real anymore. A moment later, real again.

From time to time there's this feeling waking me up at night: terror plus feeling of vastness. Indescribable. Gone as quickly and suddenly as it appears.

OMG Tyler, it's like once seeing it, then not seeing it, I'm so tired. Is it just patience I am lacking or what???!

I know we have a call coming, you don't really have to answer me here, we can just talk about this, I just wanted to wrap up those last days.

[ty0]

Hey Karolina,

I already read this post so I'll just leave a short reply for now.

A lot of your centrality/inside-outside/whatever seems to be about your body, but... what body? Is there any body in your experience? You talk about sensations being closer to the body... but is there any body apart from the sensations? You're just imagining a body as an imagined "centre" then imagining how some parts of experience are closer or further to this imagined "centre". When you look in direct experience, is there any centre or body? It seems to me like you're trying to use thought to figure this out but you're not seeing that the whole distance/centre/body/in-out thing is your imagination (thought).

OMG Tyler, it's like once seeing it, then not seeing it, I'm so tired. Is it just patience I am lacking or what???!

There is no "once seeing it". It's just a memory (thought) happening NOW. You're not lacking patience or anything, you just have a very powerful imagination 😂😂.

The running theme in this post is you trying to solve a problem. Don't you see the frustration is also born out of you imagining a goal and judging that you haven't gotten there yet? Old habits will pop up from conditioning. Unpleasant feelings will arise. What's wrong?