The Gate

Here's the quote video

Thanks ! I was not using the "post reply" button, but clicking on the quote symbols before, so this is much easier :)

You can try Whac-A-Mole while focusing on any of the individual senses, in this case touch. I've found that pretty effective.

Just making sure I understand. Is Whac-A-Mole the same as mindfulness ? Do you think any approach is better e.g. Goenka (no labelling) versus Mahasi style labelling (95% experience, 5% verbal ?

Any doubts? Questions? Concerns? What are some things you believe? What are some things you're sure of?

I have been trying to understand the difference between identifying with a thought and believing a thought. I understand identification as an I-thought which appears after an experience claiming the experience to belong to me, whereas believing a thought occurs when the thought "this is true" occurs after a thought. Both the identification and the believing are processes which occur dependent on ? I am trying to figure what is the mechanism that generates the I-thought or the belief ?

What also interests me is that the identification with a thought and believing a thought also have a visceral dimension to them, which seems to fuel the whole process of identification and belief. I can recognise the thought, say to my self it is not true but somehow this is not sufficient because there is still this pre-verbal sensation which identifies or believes the thought. Not sure if this makes sense ? I kind of feel that this is the key to letting go of false beliefs, though I might be going down a rabbit whole of thoughts ! I have an intuitive sense that this whole thing is very simple, and once seen I will think this whole discussion hilarious :) :)

I am sure of DE, I feel based on experience that I can trust DE. I am not sure of the validity of thoughts beyond being just a thought.

Just making sure I understand. Is Whac-A-Mole the same as mindfulness ? Do you think any approach is better e.g. Goenka (no labelling) versus Mahasi style labelling (95% experience, 5% verbal ?

I don't know :). Nor do I know if knowing the answer to any fo these questions would be useful. Or true. You don't really need to understand anything

What also interests me is that the identification with a thought and believing a thought also have a visceral dimension to them, which seems to fuel the whole process of identification and belief.

Yeah I'm not sure how the mechanism works with all this "believing" business actually. Which goes to show that there's really no need to understand any of this, and I'm not sure you even can. Maybe it's to do with noticing. Even when you can see that a thought is just a thought, there could be some thought-based taking of the position of "the person who shouldn't believe these thoughts" and blah blah blah. There's just lots of stuff that feels so real that you can't even notice that they're thought yet.

Maybe the end of suffering is when you can notice every thought and you don't believe any of them, but again, this is just thoughts about thoughts. Don't take any of my words as truth, because I certainly don't. Keep exploring and have fun :)

Keep exploring and have fun :)

Thanks Tyler, for all your thoughts :)...I will certainly keep exploring (not sure I could do anything else), and enjoying it cause it's utterly mind blowing.

Okay, keep me posted JB :)

Hi Tyler :)

I read Jed Mckenna's first book on enlightenment. Really changed my perspective. I am fascinated at how easily I believe stuff. The same could be said for Jed's book, though his process makes sense. Giving up all beliefs, unlearning what was learnt, looking for yourself and having no outside authority. Interesting how so many people (including me) say they want enlightenment, but do they know what it is ? It is really funny, sad when you think of it. Swapping the materialist hamster wheel for a spiritual hamster wheel, but it is still a wheel. Is it possible to get off the wheel ? Another thought :)

I have definitely seen the benefits and necessity of writing, so even clarifying these thoughts just for my self is very useful.

I find that coming back to my body sense is very useful. I am also dropping the question "what am I?" "who sees ?" when I remember, it seems to be asking it self mostly, even when I go to sleep.

The story, the story, the story it is in the background always. A mish mash of past, future and current labeling. Creating anticipation, dread, excitement, hope and a me, which is dragged out of DE but I come back to DE, when I remember. The me feels kind of different than before, not as solid, much more in the experience.

Sat for a while this morning. Intense pain in body and inner resistance. Just sat with it until my bell rang.

Hi JB :)

Ahhh you've delved into Jed. He's certainly one of the clearer speakers on the subject. His first book was gold but I feel that his material slowly devolved book by book hahah. If you feel inclined to read more Jed I recommend not reading past the first 3 books, at least for now. If you want a Jed-esque speaker/writer with deeper realisation, UG Krishnamurti is my personal favourite.

Swapping the materialist hamster wheel for a spiritual hamster wheel, but it is still a wheel. Is it possible to get off the wheel ? Another thought :)

It isn't possible to get off the wheel because as soon as there's no more wheel, there's no more person to get off the wheel. The person and the wheel exist dependently on each other. Thought is only interested in the continuity of thought. If you don't think, are you there?

I have definitely seen the benefits and necessity of writing, so even clarifying these thoughts just for my self is very useful.

Let's hold off on calling it a necessity, I don't think Jed even does.

The me feels kind of different than before, not as solid, much more in the experience.

But still, can you find "you"? Why should "you" be more in DE rather than thought? Does any part of DE have any "you"-ness to it? Does it feel like there's something experiencing the experience? Don't give up looking for the subject if it still feels like it exists.

Hi Tyler :) Thanks for your reply. So quick !

Ahhh you've delved into Jed. He's certainly one of the clearer speakers on the subject. His first book was gold but I feel that his material slowly devolved book by book hahah. If you feel inclined to read more Jed I recommend not reading past the first 3 books, at least for now. If you want a Jed-esque speaker/writer with deeper realisation, UG Krishnamurti is my personal favourite

Yes, his book really shook something, finished the first one in under 2 days, bought the second. I will check out UG again, I did read one of his books but it did not shake me as much as Jed, I guess it is the timing. Same material can have vastly different impacts depending on where you are at when you read it. Strange how it works.

If you don't think, are you there?

No, but there is still experience. I will need to relook at this, it is a good question.

But still, can you find "you"? Why should "you" be more in DE rather than thought? Does any part of DE have any "you"-ness to it? Does it feel like there's something experiencing the experience? Don't give up looking for the subject if it still feels like it exists.

Sometimes when looking for a me or just when memories come up there is an image of myself. The image appears a lot more than I initially thought, after I started doing the looking for a "me" exercise. I don't think there is any difference between the me in DE and the me in thought, though the i-thought is a thought.

Sometimes it doesn't feel like there is something experiencing the experience, but when I notice this then it feels like something is. It is really funny :). The subject does feel like it exists most of the time but it feels like there are holes in it, those moments when it disappears, I guess there is still more looking to do. What I noticed, that is interesting, is that these holes appear when there is a letting go of effort, it is like when I almost forget the exercise of looking for a me then the me disappears. I think this makes sense since the looking for a me implies a me, though the holes in the me only started appearing when I started looking for a me !

I will check out UG again, I did read one of his books but it did not shake me as much as Jed, I guess it is the timing. Same material can have vastly different impacts depending on where you are at when you read it. Strange how it works.

Yes it's very strange. I haven't read any of his books actually I've only heard him on Youtube. Here's one really funny one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjnLphLeVvo

No, but there is still experience. I will need to relook at this, it is a good question.

Yes, look in the "holes" you mentioned. Are you there during the holes?

Sometimes it doesn't feel like there is something experiencing the experience, but when I notice this then it feels like something is.

Hahahah, that's why in Whac-a-Mole I mentioned that even the noticing is a thought that you must notice as a thought. Make that the first instinct. Don't judge the noticing as if the subject coming back into experience is somehow a bad thing. If you notice a thought, who noticed the thought? Who's asking who noticed the thought? Who's asking who's asking who noticed the thought?

If you notice the subject is absent, notice the noticing of that. Notice the noticing of the noticing of that. Notice the noticing of the noticing of the noticing of that.

When you start to look in the holes, do the holes close? You speak of the looking as if the looking is separate from you, but can you even be there when there is no looking? When you are not there, can you even know that you are not there?

Btw, would you want to do a call sometime in the next few days? I think it's good timing

Hi Tyler

Sorry late reply been a bit rough lately, travelling, work etc.

Here's one really funny one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjnLphLeVvo

Thank you ! will check it out.

Yes, look in the "holes" you mentioned. Are you there during the holes?

No, it is just the experience.

When you start to look in the holes, do the holes close? You speak of the looking as if the looking is separate from you, but can you even be there when there is no looking? When you are not there, can you even know that you are not there?

Sometimes they close, though sometimes there is more of sense of experience just happening. It is difficult to explain, though it seems to be linked to the level of effort I put in. If I put in a lot of effort then there is more of a sense of I and the holes close.

Is the looking separate from me ? I need to investigate this more, though I don't think it is. When there is no looking I am not there. The looking almost brings in the looker I think, otherwise there is just the experience of what is seen, heard etc. When I am not there I can't know that I am not there ! It feels a bit like a slippery slope :)

A call would be great ! I am still travelling this week and next, but I am sure I could fit in a call, probably during next week ? If that suites you ? I am in GMT + 2. What time zone are you ?

Hi JB. Don't say sorry I'm not rushing you hahah

Is the looking separate from me ? I need to investigate this more, though I don't think it is. When there is no looking I am not there. The looking almost brings in the looker I think, otherwise there is just the experience of what is seen, heard etc.

Yes, investigate this more and test your hypothesis. Very fascinating stuff :)

When I am not there I can't know that I am not there ! It feels a bit like a slippery slope :)

If there are times when "you" are not there, what does that say about "you"? Is there an actual "you"? Does it feel like there is any sort of inherent witness/observer/experiencer of your experience? Do you feel like you are the subject in a world of objects apart from you?

A call would be great ! I am still travelling this week and next, but I am sure I could fit in a call, probably during next week ? If that suites you ? I am in GMT + 2. What time zone are you ?

I'm in GMT +8. I'm free this entire Sunday. Next Monday and Tuesday evenings are okay for me too. Drop me an email at 27leetyler@gmail.com so we can schedule :)