Clueless

[Zendog2]

Good morning James.

Write down your next 10 thoughts -

Did you see where any came from, did you have any idea what they would be?

i can not find where they come from. They just seem to arise from nowhereness into somewhere maybe.
i can not predict what they will be. Even if i attempt to direct thinking to a topic it's just more thinking and the thoughts that come can't be predicted. Just thoughts reflecting thoughts reflecting thoughts.

What does the concept of "self" represent for you?

Even as a young person i never really knew who i was. i just assumed not knowing was one of my shortcomings. There was still a "sense" of self that seemingly directed my life. It feels like the sense of self is an assumption i made in response to the world telling me i am someone. It seems like the self and ego are synonymous, simply an assumption and identification with a complex of thoughts and conditioning that seem to be erroneous or maybe even non-existent.

Thank you James

[jrm72]

Afternoon Scott,


Try this -


Butt Chair Exercise


Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.



❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Hello James.

Butt Chair Exercise

i can feel pressure. i am assuming its from the chair but cant tell with out looking to see.
i cant find the dividing line between my butt and the chair.
i can feel my shirt but again not the dividing line.
Same with the air.
The dividing line was assumed.

With gratitude,

Scott

[jrm72]

Evening Scott,


One more exercise and then we can do a little recap -


The menu is not the meal
The map is not the territory
The word is not the thing


Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise or google for a picture of an apple.

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Have fun and let me know what you find out.


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Good evening friend.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple
is an apple actually known?

i see an apparent object.
It's shape is usually labeled apple shape. Wait shape is a label?
The color I see is usually labeled red.
If I pick it up i feel a sensation labeled cold. Also a sensation labeled pressure.
When I taste it i perceive a taste labeled apple and or sweet.
When I smell it i smell a smell usually labeled apple smell.
I am aware that I'm thinking about this object and its parts. only thoughts.
When i place it on the table i hear a sound labeled maybe thud?

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Only sensations and thought.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No, apple is a label not an object. Apple only exists as content of thought.

Apple can not be known.

Good night James until tomorrow. James can not be known. Night can not be known. Tomorrow can not be known. Good can not be known.

[jrm72]

Morning Scott,

So far it seems we have seen that -

We are not in control of our actions.
We are not in control of our thoughts.
Our body is not separate from everything else.
The words we use are not the things labelled.
We can't find a self.

(There's something quite ironic in this next question)

Any thoughts?


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Good morning James.

So far it seems we have seen that -

We are not in control of our actions.
We are not in control of our thoughts.
Our body is not separate from everything else.
The words we use are not the things labelled.
We can't find a self.

(There's something quite ironic in this next question)

Any thoughts?

There doesn't seem to be any control at all.
There doesn't seem to be anything separate including a self.
Reality is distanced, altered and filtered by labels and thought overlays. I can’t experience reality through thought using labels. There is only direct experience.

That's all i have for now.

I woke up last night and couldn't get back to sleep as I was watching my attention go from thought to sensations visual field hearing i was noticing that when I became aware of thought, they seemed much more benevolent as just something to notice with no content. I would move into them and content disappeared.

Talk to you soon.

[jrm72]

Afternoon Scott,

What does the term 'self' mean to you?

❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Afternoon James.

What does the term 'self' mean to you?

i guess it is synonymous with ego. Just two labels.
So an erroneous assumption that a complex of thoughts and conditioning is who i am. A miss identification with thought assuming that it is who i am. Who am i? What am i?

[jrm72]

Evening Scott,

What's the difference in experience between, what's seen, seeing and the seer?

❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

James,

What's the difference in experience between, what's seen, seeing and the seer?

What is seen. Forms and energy (light) with no labels, thought overlays or other filters.
Seeing. Receiving visual information and interpreting the data with labels and thought overlays.
The seer. Thought, Ego, self.

Scott

[jrm72]

Evening Scott,

Sit and listen to sounds and look for the listener, was there someone waiting for the sound to appear?


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

James,

Sit and listen to sounds and look for the listener, was there someone waiting for the sound to appear?

There is no listener. Hearing just happens. Only attention changes.

Scott

[jrm72]

Morning Scott,

There is no listener. Hearing just happens.

What about a taster, a smeller, a feeler, a seer, a thinker etc ?


❤️🖖

[Zendog2]

Good morning James.

There is no listener. Hearing just happens.
What about a taster, a smeller, a feeler, a seer, a thinker etc ?

There is no taster. Tasting just happens. Cant stop it, cant start it. Taste is always happening.
No feeler either, sensations are always there.
No seer. Seeing is always happening. Closing my eyes just changes the light show.
No thinker. Thoughts come and go. They just happen. No thinker. No self.
Only attention.

Good afternoon James.