Help me see the absence of separate self

[Marceldesti]

"what does it mean for something to be true?" "how do you know?"

Truth is intrinsically bound to words or concepts so symbols. So we first have to agree on what each word means (which is not as easy as it sound and is I think the source of a lot of sterile debates).
Now let's take and example. If I say "The sun revolves around the earth". Or "the earth is flat". It's not true. Because the reality to what the words are referring to does not correspond to what the words are saying. So something is true when the words correspond to what reality is.
How do I know these sentences are not true ? Essentially because I chose to trust what I have been told. I could though verify for myself.

[ty0]

So it seems like something is true only when we believe it's true. Is it possible for something to be absolutely true regardless of our opinions about it? If you say 2+2=4 and I say 2+2=5, which statement is more true? It might seem like yours is more true, but isn't it only so because the majority of society agrees on it? It used to be "true" that the Earth was flat.

Then, is it possible for us to know with 100% certainty whether something is true or not? Is objective knowing even possible? Or can we only believe we know? What does it mean to "know" something? Even if you verify something, and you're so certain that you're willing to bet your life on it, does this mean that it is objectively true?

[Marceldesti]

If you say 2+2=4 and I say 2+2=5, which statement is more true?

In this case I agree that these are just conventions.

It used to be "true" that the Earth was flat.

I like the metaphor of the map and the territory from Korsibski. The map of the "flat earth" is not very accurate. And the map of Einstein's Relativity is more accurate than Newton's one. So in a way I agree with you. It is used to be "belived true" that the Earth was flat, it was the only map or the most common one.

Then, is it possible for us to know with 100% certainty whether something is true or not?

No. Except for "there is something".

Is objective knowing even possible

I don't think so

What does it mean to "know" something?

If it's a thought, or a map (a way of interpreting the world) then it means to believe we know. Or to rely on past experiences to expect something to happen the same way.
In the case of direct experiences like the five senses, to know them is to experience them.

does this sense that "There is something" exist in the 5 sense fields or is it some kind of thought/mental activity?

It seems to me that there is no mental activity when I experience one of the 5 sense fields. It is not bound to thoughts. It is not verbal nor visual.

[ty0]

Thomas, are you okay? How have you been feeling recently? And how have you been managing your emotions?

If you're open to it, please share about your daily life. What triggers resistance? What motivates you? What do you do when faced with strong emotion? When's the last time you felt intense emotion?

[Marceldesti]

Thomas, are you okay? How have you been feeling recently? And how have you been managing your emotions?

I'm okay. My life is pretty easy these days because I'm in holidays.
I've been feeling frustration because of the feeling of being indetified again with thoughts (the sense of "I" coming back). It takes me around 30 minutes to get the clarity back.
I have also noticed the tendecie to make a new belief system out of what I "saw". And I know I can very easily bypass emotion with "spiritual stuff" so when it happens I try to "feel only" or to do the process of Non Violent Communication which help me a lot to "manage" my emotions.

I'll answer your other question a little bit later :)

[Marceldesti]

What do you do when faced with strong emotion? When's the last time you felt intense emotion?

Intense is a bit subjective but yesterday I felt annoyed by my girlfriend. When I ask her something (for example if I can take the car for the day) she often reply that it's ok or that she will find another solution whereas I don't want to impose anything, just talk about it and see what our respective needs are and how we could do to meet them. But she often acts like she has no choice but to deal with the decision I took. It annoys me because I want to find a solution that suits both of us and I feel like I can't talk Without her giving up the discussion.
It's not something huge but it triggers resistance and irritation at 6 out of 10.

When I feel strong emotion and when I have the time and ressource to take care of them I do the NVC process :
- I look at the fact, what happened in the most objective way possible
- if there are thoughts I label them as judgments or mental creativity
- I label the emotion that I'm feeling and try to discern if there are any judgments left in the expression of the emotion (for example "rejected" is an emotion with a judgment)
- then I try to identify the need which makes me feel the emotion, and try to connect with the need and feel it and how it is important for me
I try to feel the sensations also and make room for the emotions and sensations to be felt.

What motivates you?

These day I am very motivated by doing paragliding with my girlfriend and my brother.
I will also go to Sweden hitch hiking.
And of course I am still curious about getting more clarity on my experience.

[ty0]

But she often acts like she has no choice but to deal with the decision I took. It annoys me because I want to find a solution that suits both of us and I feel like I can't talk Without her giving up the discussion.

Have you ever tried telling her exactly what you wrote here and finding out her exact thought process that makes her respond that way when you ask for something?

When I feel strong emotion and when I have the time and ressource to take care of them I do the NVC process :
- I look at the fact, what happened in the most objective way possible
- if there are thoughts I label them as judgments or mental creativity
- I label the emotion that I'm feeling and try to discern if there are any judgments left in the expression of the emotion (for example "rejected" is an emotion with a judgment)
- then I try to identify the need which makes me feel the emotion, and try to connect with the need and feel it and how it is important for me
I try to feel the sensations also and make room for the emotions and sensations to be felt.

When you feel a strong emotion, try this:
1) Feel the emotion
2) If thoughts arise about it, just notice they're thoughts and continue feeling the emotion. No need for intense focus or effort, it's the opposite actually. Let go of trying to manage the emotion and let the emotion be everything in that moment. Any act of effort is probably an act of avoidance.

These day I am very motivated by doing paragliding with my girlfriend and my brother.
I will also go to Sweden hitch hiking.
And of course I am still curious about getting more clarity on my experience.

That's awesome dude I've never tried paragliding. I meant what motivates you to live? Why do you continue to work/study, solve problems and so on?

[Marceldesti]

What about the inquiry about "what does it mean for something to be true" ?
Have we gone to the end of the path here ?
And the other ones ?
Are we done with inquiries ?

Have you ever tried telling her exactly what you wrote here and finding out her exact thought process that makes her respond that way when you ask for something?

Yes, she interprets a lot of what I am saying, so each time I try to clarify what I am saying and to discard her interpretation.

When you feel a strong emotion, try this:
1) Feel the emotion
2) If thoughts arise about it, just notice they're thoughts and continue feeling the emotion. No need for intense focus or effort, it's the opposite actually. Let go of trying to manage the emotion and let the emotion be everything in that moment. Any act of effort is probably an act of avoidance.

I'll try

That's awesome dude I've never tried paragliding.

If you come to France one day, it would be a pleasure to make you fly :)

I meant what motivates you to live? Why do you continue to work/study, solve problems and so on?

That's a good question. A part of me sees the tragic of life but I have space in me to welcome that. And even if things are meaningless, I can love, explore, learn. That's enough for me. And most of the time, life is pleasant for me. I'm lucky.
And maybe also because a part of me is afraid of dying.

[ty0]

What about the inquiry about "what does it mean for something to be true" ?
Have we gone to the end of the path here ?
And the other ones ?
Are we done with inquiries ?

Well, what are you curious about? What do you think you don't know? What are you looking for now?

[Marceldesti]

Well, what are you curious about? What do you think you don't know? What are you looking for now?

Thoughts saying :
"Well did I give all the right answers ? Is that it ? Perfect ! Now I can believe them and construct another map with it."
"Who believes anything ?"
"Believing is a thought"

I have a question or rather I read a question : "If I don't find "I" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, we cannot prove something doesn't exist."
Thoughts :
"Who is looking for I ?"
Feeling my hands
"Who's hands ?"
Confusion
Feeling hands
"The sense of I comes back so quickly, I'm not sure I've crossed the gate"

[Marceldesti]

It really feels like I made a new belief system out of this "clear seeing" and now it prevents me from seeing clearly again. Every time I try to see clearly again, there is a belief. The seeing is really not as clear as the first time.

I feel anger, frustration and sadness.

I don't care about feeling joy or peace, I just want to see as clearly as I saw the first time.

And thoughts are saying "the honeymoon period is supposed to last weeks, but for me it lasted only a few hours... So it was maybe not real awakening. People are saying that once you see it you cannot unsee it but I really feel like I am identified again..."

[ty0]

Every time I try to see clearly again, there is a belief. The seeing is really not as clear as the first time.

Did you ever really "see clearly"? All you have is a memory of some kind of experience that you label as "seeing clearly". All you're doing is comparing your interpretation of your current experience with your interpretation of a memory. If I could give you one piece of advice: forget about it. It didn't happen. You don't have proof that you ever saw clearly. All you have is some kind of memory and some kind of interpretation, and what are those? Thoughts, no? Experience changes, nothing is permanent.

"Believing is a thought"

Who's the one saying that believing is a thought? Is that not another thought?

"The sense of I comes back so quickly, I'm not sure I've crossed the gate"

Who is aware of the sense of I coming back? What gate are you talking about? Who's able to cross the gate?

I feel anger, frustration and sadness.

I don't care about feeling joy or peace, I just want to see as clearly as I saw the first time.

I don't want you to spend too much time inquiring and making this intellectual. This is your invitation to FEEL the anger, frustration, and sadness. What if you never see as clearly as you believe you once did? What if you spend the rest of your life chasing that feeling of clarity again, only to never find it and die miserable, knowing that you never lived life fully? How does that make you feel? Can you FEEL it without trying to do anything about it?

Honestly, I don't know if clarity will ever come back to you. Any hope you have for it to come back is again just a thought. So what now?

[Marceldesti]

Did you ever really "see clearly"? All you have is a memory of some kind of experience that you label as "seeing clearly". All you're doing is comparing your interpretation of your current experience with your interpretation of a memory.

Yes that's exactly what I'm doing haha

Experience changes, nothing is permanent.

I thought that this recognition was permanent. Like when you stop believing in Santa.

Who's the one saying that believing is a thought? Is that not another thought?

Of course it is. And I take myself for the thought or the thinker again.

Who is aware of the sense of I coming back?

I'll let that sink a bit because I only have thought answers.

What gate are you talking about?

The Gateless Gate of the book. The little Thomas wanted this so much. I think he is disappointed and sad. He wanted something he could rely on. Something that would give him security. The only thing that could not change, something unshakable.

Who's able to cross the gate?

Let me take the time to answer you a bit later for this one.

What if you never see as clearly as you believe you once did? What if you spend the rest of your life chasing that feeling of clarity again, only to never find it and die miserable, knowing that you never lived life fully? How does that make you feel? Can you FEEL it without trying to do anything about it?

Feeling sadness
Despair
Knot in my stomach
Moist eyes
And then feeling like something is wrong in the question
Still a knot in the stomach
Feeling my heartbeat
Birds singing
Wind on my face
Shivers
Knot is now in my plexus
Feeling peace with sadness
Thought : "there's room for these sensations"
Movement in my stomach/plexus
Blood pumping in my head

Honestly, I don't know if clarity will ever come back to you. Any hope you have for it to come back is again just a thought. So what now?

So what are we talking about when we say that when you see it there is no going back ?

[ty0]

I thought that this recognition was permanent. Like when you stop believing in Santa.

Is there anything that's permanent? You just said it yourself: "I THOUGHT that this recognition was permanent". You can see that it was a thought, so what else is there?

The little Thomas wanted this so much. I think he is disappointed and sad. He wanted something he could rely on. Something that would give him security. The only thing that could not change, something unshakable.

What if there's nothing that's unshakable? Do you know of anything that doesn't change? We're born, things change, then we die. Nothing we do, create, or discover will last forever. What can you rely on? What is safety?

So what are we talking about when we say that when you see it there is no going back ?

What are we talking about when we say anything? Anything that can be said is just a thought, no? Again, I'm not saying anything is true or false, but look for yourself. Feel everything you feel and don't use this awakening stuff to avoid it.

What is here that is not a thought?

[Marceldesti]

Is there anything that's permanent? You just said it yourself: "I THOUGHT that this recognition was permanent". You can see that it was a thought

Yes I know it's a thought. But I believe it. I don't understand what "believing" is made out of, some thoughts seem just truer than other. I don't understand why.
I don't know if there is anything permanent. It does not seem like it.

so what else is there?

The gaps between thoughts. Sensations, perceptions, sounds ...
"When there is no thoughts what if the thinker is just silent for a moment ?" (thought)

What if there's nothing that's unshakable? Do you know of anything that doesn't change? We're born, things change, then we die. Nothing we do, create, or discover will last forever. What can you rely on? What is safety?

My mind is saying : "Safety is feeling no challenging, unpleasant or tough feelings. Only peace." And a thought answers "that is called being dead".
The sense of being does not seem to change but it is not here when I sleep and I can't say it will be here after the body dies. So maybe it does change.

What are we talking about when we say anything? Anything that can be said is just a thought, no? Again, I'm not saying anything is true or false, but look for yourself. Feel everything you feel and don't use this awakening stuff to avoid it.

Yes every words we use are concepts, symbols, thoughts.
I could not write before but I felt : anger, sadness, a knot in my sternum, frustration, fear.
And now I feel : still a knot in my sternum and stomach, blood pumping in my head and upper body, light headache, contraction, a lot of thoughts, knotted throat, pulses in my stomach like if my heart was there, contracted lips, "How long will it last ?" (thought), pulsations in my temples, seeing the beautiful sky with sun shining on the clouds, breathing, tension from my stomach to my throat, wanting to run away from everything, no energy to run away, "You're making this worse by thinking about it, the sensations are not so bad" (thought), thoughts about work, feeling my hands.

What is here that is not a thought?

Like I said above : the gaps between thoughts, sensations, and the five senses.

Who is aware of the sense of I coming back? Who's able to cross the gate?

I don't know. I cannot find something that is aware. There is awareness but I can't find its center or essence, I cannot look directly at it. It seems to be linked to the objects that I am aware of. I don't know such a thing as "pure awareness without content".
"The one able to cross the gate is certainly not thought" (thought)