Doubtful

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

I see a street with colorful houses

[Alless]

Hi Isil

And I missed an earlier post Isil !

Sorry i m just quickly copy pasting my answers and not even greeting you in the posts:)cause i m having really hard time being able to open the website, so i m rushing a bit so as not to lose the text.

No problem at all. Because of the website issues I am actually using Word to create the post and then copying and pasting then using the quote function once in the post to finish it off

And I want to acknowledge what you posted about writing. I hear you when you say it could be a "obstacle" However the question comes......
Could that be a belief?



Every time we open our mouths to speak we are using symbols. Every time we write something we are in concepts. It's not that we want to get rid of concepts - they are an indispensable aspect of living. What is vital is to see when concepts are believed to be real when they are only an imitation of the real. I also sometimes see writers/teachers about this very subject of no-self who can get so subtly caught in the concepts that the livingness of it seems to be covered. So it doesn't have to be just fiction that takes us to concepts. But let me stop here as I am in danger of taking us into conceptual thinking detour right here and now !!!

Just want to say .....while writing may or may not be for you keep an open mind and let your inner wisdom guide you.


You also say.....

I wish I could paint

Can you tell me a bit more about that?




There might be a clue in the wanting to paint !! You'll see what I mean I suspect as we look together here.

I see a street with colorful houses

This is a good example which shows how the mind with it's concepts imposes itself without us even realizing it. To become aware of mechanisms of the mind gives us insight into how we get hypnotized by thought so often.

Look at this picture again Isil




What is being pointed to here is that in PURE SEEING, without invoking the mind in any way, all that is SEEN is actually ONLY COLOUR (and yes even that is a label but the most basic label / symbol we can use to communicate)

When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides colour into colours and then names colour as specific objects.

Now .....IGNORE ALL object, image and colour labels or interpretations from the mind as you JUST LOOK at this picture:-
Are there many colours or just colour?



What tells you there are many different colours?



Is there a gap between the ‘objects’ - the cobblestones or the buildings for instance ?



Is there a dividing line between ANY object?



Where does colour begin and end?



Does any shape exist without colour or any colour exist without shape?



Is SEEING possible without colour?



Can anything be found in PURE SEEING other than colour?



Is there a seer separate from the seen?



Is there any place you can find where a seer ends and the colour starts?



In DIRECT EXPERIENCE is there any difference between ”colour” and “seeing”? Are those two labels interchangeable?



If you are able to let yourself be totally absorbed in SEEING what happens to the stream of thoughts?




With love



Alan

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

Just want to say it s wonderful to know that there s sb out there that i can reach out to during the process.
thank you so much for all you time and energy.

And I want to acknowledge what you posted about writing. I hear you when you say it could be an "obstacle" However the question comes......
Could that be a belief?

It could very well be a belief. However it sprung from the experience of “trying to write to be understood”. oh, it s such a deep one, that i m having hard time digging in right now. Yet i think it has two aspects to it:

writing from a very free space, pure imagination and flow- getting praises from very few people and critics and not being understood by the rest. At the end feeling like there is no point in writing (even though i feel and i ve always been told that i m very talented- that i m a natural) Cause it takes so much dedication and work to actually make it happen, bring it out and about to be seen- read.
2. the identification with the title- the writer

Wanting to let go of it and not wanting to let go of it at the same time. feeling fear that if i stop writing knowing that i have a gift in that scares me. Like i judge myself for choosing the easy way out.

Plus i m so not interested in what is being told in so many books that i m having hard time finding anything that i d like to read which creates all kinds of self judgements as a result.


Anyways, like i said this is a deep one and even when i m writing all this stuff down i see how full of shit i’m:)
yet at the same time feel strings of the inner conflict splitting me apart as well. I ll leave it at that for now.

Every time we open our mouths to speak we are using symbols. Every time we write something we are in concepts. It's not that we want to get rid of concepts - they are an indispensable aspect of living. What is vital is to see when concepts are believed to be real when they are only an imitation of the real. I also sometimes see writers/teachers about this very subject of no-self who can get so subtly caught in the concepts that the livingness of it seems to be covered. So it doesn't have to be just fiction that takes us to concepts. But let me stop here as I am in danger of taking us into conceptual thinking detour right here and now !!!

Just want to say .....while writing may or may not be for you keep an open mind and let your inner wisdom guide you.

You also say.....

I wish I could paint

Can you tell me a bit more about that?

About painting, it s not that i ever wish that i could paint, but when i bump into the limitation of language and how easy it d be to just get lost in imagination and use colors, bypassing the conceptual realm of the mind, i think i d be nice. But i don't know much about painting so this is just a guess.


There might be a clue in the wanting to paint !! You'll see what I mean I suspect as we look together here.

[Ixilay]

Is there a gap between the ‘objects’ - the cobblestones or the buildings for instance ?

only colors that give a sense that there is a border of things.Yet it obviously is an illusion

Is there a dividing line between ANY object?

no

Where does colour begin and end?

different shades give a sense that there is a difference between this and that.if you just keep following different shades that follow each other it goes on forever it seems.

Does any shape exist without colour or any colour exist without shape?

no

Is SEEING possible without colour?

no

Can anything be found in PURE SEEING other than colour?

not really

Is there a seer separate from the seen?

this s a tricky one. I cant find it.I ve been looking for it for a long time now:) I keep going and looking at the mirror at the end:) Just to get into the heart of this sense of “yes of course there is a seer, here!”. Then i get stuck there, obviously all i see is an other “seen”, “ image” just a very owned one by the mind.a very sticky one. “ my image”, “my reflection in the mirror”and then of course who says that, a thought comes and says it. very subtly, automatically.so no seer to be found.

Is there any place you can find where a seer ends and the colour starts?

i hear lots of thoughts that claim that “i can” “in the body” “that the seer ends where the body ends and the colors start there” but can’t see it at all. Then the body is just another color. then the thought comes: but this is where the seeing is happening. but then again, is there a proof for that other than the “seen”? nope.

[Ixilay]

In DIRECT EXPERIENCE is there any difference between ”colour” and “seeing”?

Are those two labels interchangeable?
there seems to be none. yes, they are interchangable.

If you are able to let yourself be totally absorbed in SEEING what happens to the stream of thoughts?

i find it very hard to let myself be absorbed in seeing, only for a few seconds maybe without a label or comment joining in.

[Alless]

Hello Isil

Just want to say it s wonderful to know that there s sb out there that i can reach out to during the process.
thank you so much for all you time and energy.

I hear your appreciation Isil. Thank you. And the truth is this is never a one way street. And I thank you for your honesty and willingness to discover what is true. What LU has given "here" is an absolute gift. And in turn it is a joy to be able to be there to offer pointers to "others" so that they might see the truth of the fabricated "me"

I also feel the dilemma you are experiencing with the writing role. I sense the conflict and the suffering that’s happening.

We could take time now to look at that closer however I really do feel that first of all we need to keep our attention on really getting to the core of direct experience. Realizing there is no “me” which is at the root of all suffering is so necessary and affects every dimension of life. Seeing through the notion of no-self may or may not totally resolve this writing dilemma but will certainly help in clearing the way for the revealing of any beliefs that may be attending it.
Does that resonate with you Isil?

About painting, it s not that i ever wish that i could paint, but when i bump into the limitation of language and how easy it d be to just get lost in imagination and use colors, bypassing the conceptual realm of the mind, i think i d be nice.

Interesting.
Are you saying that you would like to get lost in imagination through using colours?




Imagining is not bypassing the conceptual mind but the imagination IS conceptual.
Do you see that?


Now coming to the picture of the town,
Can you see how quickly the mind comes in a labels things – lines, gaps, shapes, colours?



Going back to what a baby sees when it first opens its eyes.
Can you see how only a “sea” of colour would be seen?




And do you see the difference between a baby opening its eyes for the first time and a five year old is that through language and other conditioning objectification and labeling have so influenced how the child relates to its world?

“ my image”, “my reflection in the mirror”and then of course who says that, a thought comes and says it. very subtly, automatically.so no seer to be found.

Is what you actually SEE WITHOUT THOUGHT in the mirror anything else other than colour?





And as you say yourself “a thought comes and says it. very subtly, automatically” Great noticing !!

Now here is the question ……….. what is accepted as real….
What is SEEN DIRECTLY or what the thought says?

i find it very hard to let myself be absorbed in seeing, only for a few seconds maybe without a label or comment joining in

.
We are interrupting long established habits here Isil. So it is understandable that it may not be easy to be absorbed in SEEING without the mind imposing itself. Doing it even for a few seconds is wonderful and then allow that to expand itself as you give yourself to it, As best you can, allow your attention rest in the SEEING rather than on any specific object. And this matter of CLEAR SEEING is a critical aspect of discerning the mechanisms of the mind.

So over the next 24 hours as often as you can take a few moments - wherever you and whenever you can - and simply LOOK. SEE if there is ANYTHING other than colour in what is seen. Also simply be aware of the thoughts that at LIGHTNING SPEED come and have their say.

Then let me know what happens as you do this. Remember we are not trying to stop the thoughts but simply be alert for when we see we’re believing a thought over and above simply being open to what is seen.

So here are some questions to report on
Is there anything other than colour in SEEING?



Where does SEEING happen?



With your eyes either closed or open can seeing be started or stopped or interrupted in anyway by consciously choosing to do so?



Do thoughts in any way alter SEEING, the seen or colour in any way?




In what way do thoughts “relate or interact” with SEEING?




Anything else to report?




With love


Alan

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

Thank you so much for these brilliant pointers. Especially the one with the imagination! I ll let them all sit a bit and get back to you soon!

Love

Isil

[Alless]

Sitting with the pointers is a really good ides Isil

Thanks for the heads uo !

With love


Alan

[Ixilay]

Hi Alani

We could take time now to look at that closer however I really do feel that first of all we need to keep our attention on really getting to the core of direct experience. Realizing there is no “me” which is at the root of all suffering is so necessary and affects every dimension of life. Seeing through the notion of no-self may or may not totally resolve this writing dilemma but will certainly help in clearing the way for the revealing of any beliefs that may be attending it.
Does that resonate with you Isil?

yes


About painting, it s not that i ever wish that i could paint, but when i bump into the limitation of language and how easy it d be to just get lost in imagination and use colors, bypassing the conceptual realm of the mind, i think i d be nice.
Interesting. 
Are you saying that you would like to get lost in imagination through using colours? 
I guess that s what it comes down to, doesn't it? Actually, since i don't know how to draw things, when i think of painting, it s more like playing with colors really, but still, there is an obvious desire to take refuge in imagination even if it s in the form of abstract.

I see now that there is such a belief around it: Creating sth, either an abstract painting or poetry (since also what i write is mostly on the abstract and poetry side of things) it could come from a place(!!!!) in the mind that is not rational, which means that it s not made up of the mind!!!! like it could be put in the category of “inner wisdom” (like subcategory that s safe and sacred:)) and then i m good:)

this is a big and complex one for me to look at, so i ll leave it at that again only to go back to it later, when you think that it is appropriate.

Imagining is not bypassing the conceptual mind but the imagination IS conceptual. 

Do you see that?

YES

Now coming to the picture of the town, 

Can you see how quickly the mind comes in a labels things – lines, gaps, shapes, colours?

YES, too quick to notice even. but yes.

Going back to what a baby sees when it first opens its eyes. 
Can you see how only a “sea” of colour would be seen?

yes

And do you see the difference between a baby opening its eyes for the first time and a five year old is that through language and other conditioning objectification and labeling have so influenced how the child relates to its world?

yes



“ my image”, “my reflection in the mirror”and then of course who says that, a thought comes and says it. very subtly, automatically.so no seer to be found.

Is what you actually SEE WITHOUT THOUGHT in the mirror anything else other than colour?

this is a difficult one. Yes, i can barely see. It is almost like thought is etched into my face that it s inseperable though. the moment i look in the mirror, “my face” is there as the thought that doesn't go away. Then the thought, oh but “what about the form?” “ the dimension” thought is much stronger when i look at my reflection. It’ s easier to see that “all is just colors following colors” when i look at other objects or landscape but with the face, i m still having hard time although i see nothing else but color. The questioning is still there. So then is dimension also a thought? …That s coming from knowing?



And as you say yourself “a thought comes and says it. very subtly, automatically” Great noticing !!

Now here is the question ……….. what is accepted as real…. 
What is SEEN DIRECTLY or what the thought says?

what s seen directly.


i find it very hard to let myself be absorbed in seeing, only for a few seconds maybe without a label or comment joining in
.

We are interrupting long established habits here Isil. So it is understandable that it may not be easy to be absorbed in SEEING without the mind imposing itself. Doing it even for a few seconds is wonderful and then allow that to expand itself as you give yourself to it, As best you can, allow your attention rest in the SEEING rather than on any specific object. And this matter of CLEAR SEEING is a critical aspect of discerning the mechanisms of the mind.

So over the next 24 hours as often as you can take a few moments - wherever you and whenever you can - and simply LOOK. SEE if there is ANYTHING other than colour in what is seen. Also simply be aware of the thoughts that at LIGHTNING SPEED come and have their say.

Then let me know what happens as you do this. Remember we are not trying to stop the thoughts but simply be alert for when we see we’re believing a thought over and above simply being open to what is seen.

So here are some questions to report on
Is there anything other than colour in SEEING?

in a photo no, in real life i keep running into the dimension aspect of things. or movement.

Where does SEEING happen? 

kind of everywhere despite the feeling that it s in the eyes or brain.

With your eyes either closed or open can seeing be started or stopped or interrupted in anyway by consciously choosing to do so?

NO

Do thoughts in any way alter SEEING, the seen or colour in any way?

NO

In what way do thoughts “relate or interact” with SEEING?

more like commenting on them, like-dislike, or adding specific qualities to it.

Anything else to report?

This has been hell of an exercise, it has always been cause every time i feel like i m swimming in a sea of doubt and self talk about “how it is impossible to separate the seeing from the conditioning and although i get it, and get glimpses of it i don’t get an “aha moment”, which might mean that i don't actually get it. Like i ve seen and noticed all that before as well, yet it didn't change a bit about seeing thru the self.

And i was sitting with this idea of a center this morning and looking to find where this so called center is. Of course i can not find anywhere but just a contraction in the forehead area, that always appear when i feel i m getting to the core of things. so i sat with this contraction for quite a while this morning, just feeling through it, a very solid, plate-like thing claiming to be the center cockpit:)

that is what i ve got so far:)

thank you

isil

[Alless]

HI isil,

this is a big and complex one for me to look at, so i ll leave it at that again only to go back to it later, when you think that it is appropriate.

Yes, let's leave it for now and attend to the fundamentals.

this is a difficult one. Yes, i can barely see. It is almost like thought is etched into my face that it s inseperable though. the moment i look in the mirror, “my face” is there as the thought that doesn't go away.

Yes, at this stage it is so understandable that it is difficult. The purpose of these exercises is to help "a stepping back" from the mind processes in such a way that what is actually happening can be better discerned.

Then the thought, oh but “what about the form?” “ the dimension” thought is much stronger when i look at my reflection.

See how thought imposes itself and the default is to believe thought?



Seeing clearer and clearer that this is happening is all that's needed. That may seem too simple to the mind but that is the truth. CLEAR SEEING is ALL that 's needed for realization.

It’ s easier to see that “all is just colors following colors” when i look at other objects or landscape but with the face, i m still having hard time although i see nothing else but color. i m still having hard time although i see nothing else but color.

This is the power of identification.Identification is simply believing a thought ABOUT "me" and we tag another thought that we believe on to it. There is a MY face in the mirror and that is "me." And then more thoughts ....the landscape out there seems to be "outside" of me.
But looking at what is being EXPERIENCED is either one - the image of your face or the landscape - any more REAL than the other?




What do you experience when you simply LOOK (with no thought) in the mirror and see what is experienced if you didn't automatically accept the thought "That is MY face?"




The truth here is that you are not even looking at your face in the mirror but an IMAGE, a REFLECTION of something that you have accepted to be your face.
REALLY LOOK and tell me what else is there in the mirror other than colours that the mind interprets as "my face?"




When a baby first looks in a mirror do they have any clue that they are looking at an image of themselves?

So then is dimension also a thought?

Yes, time and space(dimension) are constructs of the mind. This is a miracle in and of itself is it not? We will get to some of this a little later


Be patient with yourself Isil. So much will come clear little by little as you remain curious and honest about what is actually happening.

Now here is the question ……….. what is accepted as real….
What is SEEN DIRECTLY or what the thought says?

what s seen directly.

I hear what you say here, however at this stage be so alert for thought actually overriding the acceptance of what is seen directly.

in a photo no, in real life i keep running into the dimension aspect of things. or movement.

What actually gives the interpretation of movement? Is it not simply a change of colour which the mind interprets as movement?




A picture is a wonderful way to see how the mind superimposes a belief about dimension. Look at any photo or picture and see how the mind creates the impression of depth and distance.
Is there anything else in a picture other than a 2 dimensional surface with colour?




Do you see how from a 2 dimensional surface of different colours depth is not real but the mind INTERPRETS depth and shape and objects?





Amazing isn't it ?!!?




Sometimes we can find ourselves feeling "I've got a problem here" It can be a subtle underlying belief which manifests as frustration or impatience or the like. Rather than looking at all this as a "problem" looking at all this with a sense of wonder and curiosity like a little child can have an interesting "flavour" to what is being experienced.
How does that feel as you read it?

Where does SEEING happen?

kind of everywhere despite the feeling that it s in the eyes or brain.

Feel into that feeling and LOOK .......Is the SEEING ACTUALLY found in the FEELING of the eyes or brain?




Can you pinpoint WHERE SEEING ACTUALLY arises from?

In what way do thoughts “relate or interact” with SEEING?

more like commenting on them, like-dislike, or adding specific qualities to it.

Yes, so true !! Also judging, interpreting, separating.

This has been hell of an exercise, it has always been cause every time i feel like i m swimming in a sea of doubt and self talk about “how it is impossible to separate the seeing from the conditioning and although i get it, and get glimpses of it i don’t get an “aha moment”, which might mean that i don't actually get it.

Yes, this may seem like a discouraging comment but it's not. It's not just that you FEEL you are swimming in a sea of doubt but the sea of doubt is ACTUALLY BELIEVED. Seeing this belief is such a gift ! Welcome this SEEING and see what happens.
Can you actually welcome SEEING that this is the truth in this moment?

Like i ve seen and noticed all that before as well,

Is that absolutely true that you've seen ALL that you have SEEN here before?



What about seeing that imagination is conceptual? Was that realized before?



Look back and check if there is anything else - particularity the really SUBTLE things - that is even slightly different now? What do you find?



With love



Alan

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

Before i get to all your pointers and questions that i can't wait to look at, i wanna say that i read the whole post twice and it just brings me more calm and relief. so i guess i can say that i feel a general sense of more acceptance and relaxation since we started talking. so this s my quick morning report, i ll dive into the rest later on today.

Thank you so much again

love

isil

[Alless]

That's so good Isil to know that it's all more relaxed.

It really helps in opening up and to let what's here be seen and felt.

I do appreciate your dedication and sincerity in all this. It will serve you well

With love


Alan

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

this is a difficult one. Yes, i can barely see. It is almost like thought is etched into my face that it s inseperable though. the moment i look in the mirror, “my face” is there as the thought that doesn't go away.
Yes, at this stage it is so understandable that it is difficult. The purpose of these exercises is to help "a stepping back" from the mind processes in such a way that what is actually happening can be better discerned.

I see an expectation at play here… sth like this: “ the I image is supposed to dissolve or seen in a totally different way once it is seen how the thought imposes itself on the reflection right away” so since it is not happening, i m assuming that i m missing sth here. (just sth that i just noticed)(and even when i write this down, i feel how mind wants to be appreciated for this realization:)

Then the thought, oh but “what about the form?” “ the dimension” thought is much stronger when i look at my reflection.
See how thought imposes itself and the default is to believe thought?

YES (having hard time with the movement aspect still, but maybe i leave it for now, and then we look at it again later- or if look at the thought about the movement a bit more, it goes like this: ok, colors are following colors, making up the image, if it’s just different shades, change of color that creates the illusion of movement, how about a car passing:) if color is as close as it gets to direct seeing,which i agree, than movement also does, or not? i seem to have a blind spot here, which keeps me away from saying yes to your question of “do you see anything other than color in the seeing?”


Seeing clearer and clearer that this is happening is all that's needed. That may seem too simple to the mind but that is the truth. CLEAR SEEING is ALL that 's needed for realization.

It’ s easier to see that “all is just colors following colors” when i look at other objects or landscape but with the face, i m still having hard time although i see nothing else but color. i m still having hard time although i see nothing else but color.
This is ithe power of identification.Identification is simply believing a thought ABOUT "me" and we tag another thought that we believe on to it. There is a MY face in the mirror and that is "me." And then more thoughts ....the landscape out there seems to be "outside" of me.

But looking at what is being EXPERIENCED, is either one - the image of your face or the landscape - any more REAL than the other?

NO, just a different flavor, as if one is more important than the other, or that the mind has ownership over the image, yet more indifferent to the landscape.

What do you experience when you simply LOOK (with no thought) in the mirror and see what is experienced if you didn't automatically accept the thought "That is MY face?"



The truth here is that you are not even looking at your face in the mirror but an IMAGE, a REFLECTION of something that you have accepted to be your face.
REALLY LOOK and tell me what else is there in the mirror other than colours that the mind interprets as "my face?”

I don’t see anything else, although mind really wants to see or claim that it does. Like lines, as the last of its claims, then i look more to see what a line is, and see that it is a different shade.

When a baby first looks in a mirror do they have any clue that they are looking at an image of themselves?

NO


So then is dimension also a thought?

Yes, time and space(dimension) are constructs of the mind. Yes, time and space(dimension) are constructs of the mind. This is a miracle in and of itself is it not? We will get to some of this a little later

Be patient with yourself Isil. So much will come clear little by little as you remain curious and honest about what is actually happening. itself is it not? We will get to some of this a little later

Ok, great.


Be patient with yourself Isil. So much will come clear little by little as you remain curious and honest about what is actually happening.

Now here is the question ……….. what is accepted as real….
What is SEEN DIRECTLY or what the thought says?
what s seen directly.
I hear what you say here, however at this stage be so alert for thought actually overriding the acceptance of what is seen directly.

YES, and i hear you as well. I actually see that i got your question wrong, maybe i should put it this way: yes,when i look trying to ignore what the mind has to say over what s happening here, then yes what is accepted as real is what is being seen. yet the automatic functioning is just the opposite it seems, what the thought (conditioned mind) says, is mostly(always even) automatically believed and it defines my reality.

in a photo no, in real life i keep running into the dimension aspect of things. or movement.
What actually gives the interpretation of movement? Is it not simply a change of colour which the mind interprets as movement?

I guess so. i m sitting at a cafe right now and just watching all the cars pass by. My first reaction is : “nooo:) they clearly are moving, that is how i see the change of color.” Then i question which comes first? the movement or the change of color that gives me the sense that there’ s a movement! well, the latter! First a change of color is noticed in the corner of the scene then it seems like it follows a line, a line of color change, then back to the same scene. wow, so weird:) I feel like i have to keep looking over and over still.

A picture is a wonderful way to see how the mind superimposes a belief about dimension. Look at any photo or picture and see how the mind A picture is a wonderful way to see how the mind superimposes a belief about dimension. Look at any photo or picture and see how the mind creates the impression of depth and distance the impression of depth and distance.

Is there anything else in a picture other than a 2 dimensional surface with colour?

NO

Do you see how from a 2 dimensional surface of different colours depth is not real but the mind INTERPRETS depth and shape and objects?

YES

Amazing isn't it ?!!?

It is amazing!

Sometimes we can find ourselves feeling "I've got a problem here" It can be a subtle underlying belief which manifests as frustration or impatience or the like. Rather than looking at all this as a "problem" looking at all this with a sense of wonder and curiosity like a little child can have an interesting "flavour" to what is being experienced. . Rather than looking at all this as a "problem" looking at all this with a sense of wonder and curiosity like a little child can have an interesting "flavour" to what is being experienced.
How does that feel as you read it?

It feels calming! like relief! Reading through your answers or questions, sometimes a wave of tears come over me, shake me a bit, just very briefly and then leave. That last comment was one of them. that s how it felt along with the calm that it brought.

Where does SEEING happen?
kind of everywhere despite the feeling that it s in the eyes or brain.
Feel into that feeling and LOOK .......Is the SEEING ACTUALLY found in the FEELING of the eyes or brain?

It is assumed to be there. Knowing that eyes are the organs that let the seeing happen and brain as the interpreter.

but no, it is not found.

Can you pinpoint WHERE SEEING ACTUALLY arises from?

I can only assume referring to knowledge.
Then the doubt comes in and insists: if it’s not the eyes, then well, what happens when the eyes are closed, cant we say that the seeing ceases? I’ve heard that it’s said that it s just seeing the darkness then. not fully convinced. Are mental images considered seeing as well? (I may be sounding a bit dumb at this point or super sceptical, but just had to ask it:)

This has been hell of an exercise, it has always been cause every time i feel like i m swimming in a sea of doubt and self talk about “how it is impossible to separate the seeing from the conditioning and although i get it, and get glimpses of it i don’t get an “aha moment”, which might mean that i don't actually get it.
Yes, this may seem like a discouraging comment but it's not. It's not just that you FEEL you are swimming in a sea of doubt but the sea of doubt is ACTUALLY BELIEVED. Seeing this belief is such a gift ! Welcome this SEEING and see what happens.
Can you actually welcome SEEING that this is the truth in this moment?

yes, at least trying to breath it in instead of just fighting with it.

Like i ve seen and noticed all that before as well,
Is that absolutely true that you've seen ALL that you have SEEN here before?

I guess not. I cant be sure of the depth of it. I certainly have looked at the same places trying to see the nature of seeing, yet i can’t be sure if what i saw back then is what i see now.

What about seeing that imagination is conceptual? Was that realized before?

NO

Look back and check if there is anything else - particularly the really SUBTLE things - that is even slightly different now? What do you find?

I see more often now how the self -judments about this process are automatically believed in.

for example:" I do all these exercise, notice new things every time and then leave this behind and go see a friend or just do mundane activities and keep running into this judgement: see, nothing has changed! When you are not focusing on seeing for instance, everything is just the same, so again no progress…"

I see these types of judgements regularly now and see how fast they are believed in and that they don't have be true or mean anything even though a momentary discouragement is felt.

This i think is a subtle change.

And seeing more expectations and how they are in the way, they ve always been in the way that i simply overlooked them and fully believed in them.

And like i said in the previous small post, i feel a general sense of relief and contentment. more accepting in general.


Love

isil

[Ixilay]

Hi Alan,

Did you get my last message?( The long one) Just wanted to make sure:)

Love
İsil

[Alless]

Hello Isil

My humble apologies. Somehow my reply to you is still sitting here waiting for me to hit submit !! No wonder you were wondering what is going on. So here it is ......... so belatedly. So sorry !!

With love


Alan


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July 3 message

Some good seeing here Isil !

I won't comment on each response as that might create quite an epistle !

However it is wonderful to feel the relaxation in what you write. This brings about an openness which allows things that were once overlooked to be seen. Beautiful ! And this seeing of the freshness, the newness, the what's here now in every moment is infinite 😊

I see an expectation at play here… sth like this: “ the I image is supposed to dissolve or seen in a totally different way once it is seen how the thought imposes itself on the reflection right away” so since it is not happening, i m assuming that i m missing sth here. (just sth that i just noticed)(and even when i write this down, i feel how mind wants to be appreciated for this realization:)

Some good seeing here of the subtleties that so often go undetected.

which keeps me away from saying yes to your question of “do you see anything other than color in the seeing?”

Just keep LOOKING with childlike curiosity to see two things
1. That there is only colour
2. What is coming in with the belief that there is something other than colour in DIRECT SEEING

what the thought (conditioned mind) says, is mostly(always even) automatically believed and it defines my reality.

Spot on ! Again its being conscious of this / awake to this that matters and not trying to get rid of it per say

Then the doubt comes in and insists: if it’s not the eyes, then well, what happens when the eyes are closed, cant we say that the seeing ceases? I’ve heard that it’s said that it s just seeing the darkness then. not fully convinced.

The seeing of objects ceases, yes, but SEEING itself is uninterrupted.

So let's do it now. Close your eyes
With your eyes closed and as you look at the back of your eyelids is there anything other than blackness? (Perhaps little darts or flickers of "light" or faint streaks of red may be seen also.)

Are mental images considered seeing as well? (I may be sounding a bit dumb at this point or super sceptical, but just had to ask it:)

That's not dumb at all Isil. Of course the image is seen. And here's the thing. When we attend to these mental images without discernment and we believe they are true - that's what living in the illusion is all about. And this investigation is to reveal how much of our life is spent in imagination, in thought and to see how this creates the belief in separation and how this leads to suffering.


So when you are asked to LOOK you not only are asked to look at the "external world" but also at the "within" to see thoughts and images that superimpose themselves on DIRECT EXPERIENCE! Just like you're doing! It's all SEEING.

yes, at least trying to breath it in instead of just fighting with it.

It's the fighting it that creates the suffering. Accepting what already is brings peace. It doesn't mean that by accepting it we are stuck with it forever. That's just another erroneous belief. In fact the truth is as pushing and pulling and fighting it ceases, freedom from it is experienced. What a mystery !

I see more often now how the self -judments about this process are automatically believed in.

for example:" I do all these exercise, notice new things every time and then leave this behind and go see a friend or just do mundane activities and keep running into this judgement: see, nothing has changed! When you are not focusing on seeing for instance, everything is just the same, so again no progress…"

I see these types of judgements regularly now and see how fast they are believed in and that they don't have be true or mean anything even though a momentary discouragement is felt.

This i think is a subtle change.

And seeing more expectations and how they are in the way, they ve always been in the way that i simply overlooked them and fully believed in them.

And like i said in the previous small post, i feel a general sense of relief and contentment. more accepting in general.

This is good noticing ! Its like focusing the aperture of a camera - the more we look honestly the more is revealed

Now we are going to look at SEEING in another way.

Let me acknowledge that SEEING is but one of the senses. We are attending to SEEING in particular at this point as it is so fundamental to our investigation. The other senses will be attended to as we get further into this.

Labeling is one "overlay" of reality that is happening so instantaneously that it happens for most people automatically without them realizing it. Labeling pervades thinking. The aim is not to rid ourselves of labels (we have to use them to communicate in conventional daily living) but to see them for what they are. Labeling is sometimes described as at least one step removed from reality.

Here is an exercise to help see how labeling can cloud AE. (I’ll use AE/DE as short for Actual Experience or Direct Experience)
It actually can often demonstrate very nicely how AE can be hijacked by the mechanisms of the mind so instantaneously without us having a clue that it is happening.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

Look at the word label‘GREEN',
What is your actual experience?



You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?



Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?



Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?



If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?



Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?



Let me know what is SEEN.




Next time you go for a walk practice looking without labeling.
I’d love to hear. What happened?



With love


Alan