Seeking for Guidance

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,

I did the practice as you said. Something that came up for me is sensations, a lot of 'uncomfortable' sensations in different places of the body.

A beautiful observation

They are gory, uncomfortable, and they bring up imagery gory thoughts.

Yes, the sensations in the body are there, and thoughts make stories around them to make you feel uncomfortable with the sensations. The thoughts build a gory thought story around the sensation to make you feel like it shouldn't be this way, and then you feel you have to change, move, do something else, or distract yourself. This is the essence of suffering.

They also bring up sensation in the heart and throat. That is what my body keeps bring into my attention constantly, is what I just thought.

This is the body screaming at you, trying to tell you that the truth is in the body sensations, not in the thinking, story-filled thoughts.

This is Direct Experience DE
When you look inside the body with Direct experience, can you find Chenath or any autonomous, separate controlling belief?


Now that you have identified these sensations in the heart and the throat become intimate with them, sit with them in a quiet place and be one with the sensations. Be with them, say hello, acknowledge them, and thank them for protecting and keeping you safe. Let them know they do not need to be there anymore. Repeat this and see what you notice, report back, please

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

I can't remember my experience as well. I can remember the sensations moving, changing from a solid mass to a more light something. The whole body was involved, from my foot to my hands to the inner body where my heart and throat is. Some profound shift sort of happened as I felt like a cloud all of a sudden, without any strong boundaries in the body? I can't recall. There were thoughts happening, and sensations too. It felt more intimate to be with sensations in this state is a thought of a memory I have. This staying in the body lasted for around 2 hours.
I can't remember if I investigated a self during this. I will report back next time with the inquiry included in my DE.

Also Paul, It seems like I haven't kept up to speed with you on a daily basis, my apologies. I'll try to keep up!

Much love
Chenath

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
A beautiful sharing, thank you.

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more:

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word.
Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Now say the word “I” aloud.
Is that sound YOU?

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

Is the thought "I" you?

[Chenath]

Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?

No

Are any of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?

Nope

Is that sound YOU?

No

Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?”

No

Is the thought, "I exist" you?

No

Is the thought "I" you?

No

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,

I can't remember if I investigated a self during this. I will report back next time with the inquiry included in my DE.

please report on this in inquiry using DE

[CarefulDog88]

Hi chenath
Are you still with me?

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

Yes Paul. Ofc I am still with you, I may need a bit more time to report Paul, when observing thoughts, I have a little bit of trouble not pushing or pulling to the thoughts that are coming. There is a reaction to the reaction, and there is a stopping, something I learnt from "do nothing" meditation is letting go of everything that comes up, and that is helpful. But maybe I am looking for something that is not the "gap" by looking for the "gap." A resembling mental picture of the gap being sort of a vague image of 2 objects and empty black void between them. But yea I will report again with what comes up!

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
Good to hear you are still engaged.

But maybe I am looking for something that is not the "gap" by looking for the "gap." A resembling mental picture of the gap being sort of a vague image of 2 objects and empty black void between them.

This can be hard to find consistently.
Try this whenever you remember when you are waiting for the bus, at traffic lights waiting to change or at work, or anytime when you are not occupied.

Just ask yourself a simple question: "What am I going to think of next?" Often, there is a 1, 2, 3, or maybe 10-second space of nothing, and then a thought will appear. This is the gap. You can repeat this over and over as often as you remember.
Just look closely and be attentive when you ask the question.

There is nothing to do, it is just noticing what is happening. :)
Relax and Smile

[Chenath]

I was able to try this. I noticed a small gap, but I am unable to recognize the duration of it, as that would require thought. It was silence, and sometimes ocassionally when I tried to look for the gap with intention, there was a sense of doership, or intention looking for a gap by focusing on the direct experience now. I think in those moments I wasn't fully absorbed to the sound or the small tinitus in our ears naturally. But I am completely relying on memory as thought now to explain all of this.

Anyways Paul, leaving the above description aside, I am not sure if that is truly what the gap is, But what I have to mention is I have had a hard time trying to see the passing of thought and the arising of the next thought.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
You are inquiring with honesty, and that is all that is required, the Gap is just a space of no thought in between thoughts, and there is no duration that is required it's just as long as it is, it could even be a millisecond.


Lets have a look at thoughts. (it would be beneficial if you answered each question individually and sit with the question detailing your answer where possible Please)

what is labelling a thought a thought?

there was a sense of doership, or intention looking for a gap by focusing on the direct experience now.

And what happens when you rename this sense of doership with just doing?

What happens when you rename this intention looking with just looking?

Am I feeling or there is just feeling happening?

Am I thinking or there is just thinking happening?

What is doing the thinking really?

Can a thought think?

Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?

What is thought made of?


Now that you see the Gap, is thought one continuous stream of concepts , ideas, memories and beliefs, one continuous story of Chenath?

[Chenath]

what is labelling a thought a thought?

Another thought

And what happens when you rename this sense of doership with just doing?

Nothing changes, doing is just happening.

What happens when you rename this intention looking with just looking?

Nothing changes, looking is just happening. Intention is just arising.

Am I feeling or there is just feeling happening?

Feeling is just happening.

Am I thinking or there is just thinking happening?

Thinking is just happening as well.

What is doing the thinking really?

The "I" behind the eyes is what content of one thought said, but thinking is just happening, even this thought now.

Can a thought think?

No, a thought can have the content saying it can think. Its just a bunch of thought,taking the entity as one single thought happening nowwithout pauses or breaks thinking it can think. This is just an afterthought, I thought it was funny.

A thought can not think. A thought happens, why have we given it a different word called "thinking" when it is also just happening. is where I am at now. I guess thinking makes sense if there is an "I"

Is thinking a doing or it is a happening?

Thinking is definitely just happening. Doing is also just another word derived from happening, like thinking which assumes an entity doing it.

What is thought made of?

Nothing? Thought is made of sensorical perceptions like mental images or sensations or anything else perceivable, which is more thought really. So is thought made of anything? or I am not sure at all. Does it have to be made of something even? isn't that another thought that assumes a concept called made of? So am I nothing then since what I see, or anything else I perceive is also a thought? Nothing that is not the mind created which is sadly also mind created. Or am I trying to make myself beleive in this Buddhist nothingness everybody else keeps talking about haha.

Now that you see the Gap, is thought one continuous stream of concepts , ideas, memories and beliefs, one continuous story of Chenath?

Yes, it is one continous stream of concepts, ideas, memories and belieds, a continuos story of Chenath. Including the very thought that happened saying stop resisting thought, or the very thought that just happened saying the "stop resisting thought" is also just another thought that is part of this stream including this very one. Chenath exists only in thought like so. And thoughts seemingly have this property that assumes that the thought happening now is more real and a layer above the previous thoughts are are analyzed by the thought happening now. Thoughts are happening in the present but are a complete fantasy. There seems to be a strong connection between thought and time as a concept, that draws a particular mental image which does not accurately reflect what thoughts are. This was a fun dissection!


I am realizing that direct experience when prompted to put to words is mostly thought too. So I guess everything is thought. and I may have the longest gap ever and I wouldn't know at all. or I would but how?


I tried to keep to direct experience as best as possible, althought some detailing I have done may look like beliefs in certain instances or thought without guard rails.

So all of the above is just thought that happened? and unusually it happened exploring the mechanism of thought, which is somehow put to be unusual by a thought happening now.

Also Paul, don't feel obligated to address every detail I have written, I'd rather die than try to understand that. I guess I have created a Paul in my mind too, damn. This is deep!

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
Nice sharing and working through the context.
And yes that is all thought, but thought is not the enemy, the belief in the thought stories is "the greatest enemy that will be found in the last place you will ever look" Apparently, that comes from Julius Ceasar, can't be confirmed.

I realize that direct experience, when prompted to put it to words, is mostly thought to. So I guess everything is thought. and I may have the longest gap ever and I wouldn't know at all. or I would but how?

Yes, describing the body experience is all thought and requires memory to make the comparison; even in the microseconds of a sensation, a memory of the last sensation still needs to be compared to; otherwise, how would the sensation be recognised? but this is for another dialogue; LU has one main focus, and that is to guide to seeing through the illusion of the self.

What comes up when you read this? describe in DE please

[Chenath]

What comes up when you read this? describe in DE please

Nothing too different. Just some sensation that was there already.

[CarefulDog88]

Hi Chenath,
Let's try an exercise.

Body Exercise

1. Shift between letting the arm be still and move. Several times and pay close attention.
Where does the "decision," the "command," to move or stop come from? What makes the arm move? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body? Can you find that in direct experience?

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

3. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

4. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

5. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

6. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made.
Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

[Chenath]

Hi Paul,

Here are my responses.

Can you find that in direct experience?

No, not at all

Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

No

Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly the next thought that will arise?

Nope, not at all

Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

No

Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

No.

Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

Nope.