The Gate

The messages of the sick feeling in the stomach are "I can't handle this," "I can't cope with this," "I'd rather die," "I'm dying."

Feelings of hopelessness and helplessness.

This is really good stuff. This reveals itself by following that process, but it's not about hopeless and helpless, It's about the fact that they are there.
This is the feeling that a lot of avoidance has been about, so the question is what happened (probably repeatedly) that left you feeling this?
What was the conditioning that left you feeling this way?
We don't need specifics. (although they might reveal themselves spontaneously) It's the feeling connection that is the pivot point around which a letting go can happen.

Yes, there is a pushing away of the pushing away.

Don't attempt to stop it. Again, it's about what the pushing away is attempting to achieve. Seeing it's existence is all we want at this time.

Yes, it is. But deep down it’s not seen as delusional yet.

This is a mental conclusion, and although it might be accurate, it's important to recognize that it's a thought process that was used to arrive at this conclusion.

In the sense that I feel I have to change in a way to wake up

..and you'd be right. That feeling of needing to change is what is obstructing this.

there is the belief deep down that I might not be worthy of awakening at all.

Awakening has nothing to do with being worthy, although i get what you are saying.

In retrospect, it is clear how my whole personality was shaped around this underlying belief.

Did seeing this precipitate anything?

the thoughts betray that deep down I still believe I am the thinker and the doer

Whether this is accurate or not is irrelevant at the moment. Can you see that you believe the thoughts about it?
Can you also recognize that thoughts cannot resolve this?
That it can only be experiencing that will change this belief?

with love

vince

Hi vince,

This is really good stuff. This reveals itself by following that process, but it's not about hopeless and helpless, It's about the fact that they are there.
This is the feeling that a lot of avoidance has been about, so the question is what happened (probably repeatedly) that left you feeling this?
What was the conditioning that left you feeling this way?
We don't need specifics. (although they might reveal themselves spontaneously) It's the feeling connection that is the pivot point around which a letting go can happen.

The main feeling was that I didn’t matter at all. Nobody cared what I felt or thought, what was happening to me. As if I existed only as a burden, a punishment to a parent who didn’t want me.

Did seeing this precipitate anything?

Yes. I can notice my old patterns. I see them very clearly. I can also see that the pattern is breaking down. It started shifting about two years ago.

Can you see that you believe the thoughts about it?

Yes.

Can you also recognize that thoughts cannot resolve this?

That it can only be experiencing that will change this belief?
Yes. How?

avva

Hi Avva,

That it can only be experiencing that will change this belief?
Yes. How?

We need to reveal an attitude that will foster enquiry. This may already be present.
Then we need some tools that enable us to focus in the right places.
In the beginning, we look to recognize where the wrong places are. ..and that is where the content of thoughts wants to take us. This is always away from where we need to go.
The emotion that accompanies the story is where we start.
The first step is to identify a label that, at first glance, fits. For example, let's say that the label that seems to fit is "anger".
The story will be (something like) "it was provoked by" something (or someone). That's the story that wants us to chase it. To get embroiled is the details of it.
Where we need to go is into the feelings that accompany the story. Ignore the story and look at the feelings.
Remembering that a feeling is sensations plus stories, we recognize that here we have different stories. These ones are not about external provocation. These ones are about you.
We still won't engage with them, but we will notice what they are about as they enter and leave awareness.
We are looking to become intimate with the sensation.
It's almost "rinse and repeat", as labels will appear while we describe the characteristics of the sensation.
..again, we look at what the labels point to (not the labels themselves)
As we get 'close' to the sensation we notice that it is constantly changing, maybe moving, fluctuating in intensity, etc
When we get really close to it, it may even evaporate, but what triggered it may reveal itself (or not)
If the start of this investigation was anger, then as that sensation goes we may be looking at "fear". If so, then the same procedure is used. Notice the stories as they fall of the sensation that we are now focussed on.
As we get through this one we may encounter "terror". Terror at the idea that if we keep digging that we will die or something even worse. The stories attached to this one are getting pretty desperate to deflect us away, so again we just notice them as we get close to this sensation.
At this point, we may be getting 'flashbacks' to a much younger time. Pictures of an original trauma (at least it felt like that)

much love

vince

Thank you, vince. This is what is happening here: feelings come and go so quickly I hardly have time to look at the label. A sensation arises in the stomack area, and tge eyes are full of tears. The label says "sadness", but there is no story attached. It is not a reaction to a conscious thought, it comes out of the blue. I allow tge sensation to be and it's gone in 3 seconds. Sometimes annoyance comes, and that can last as long as the "provocation" lasts, but usually no more than a few seconds. There is the story of the provocation that is clearly attached. That is hard to ket go of while the provocation is happening. Are you saying that I need to look into this annoyance more and see what is underneath? Maybe fear? Fear (of dogs and vertigo) also appears sometimes when walking outside. Shall I stay with the feeling and investigate what's underneath? There is also guilt and shame, but they are not labelled as such. Just a strong sick feeling in the stomack. It's the story of the unworthiness.

avva

It seems obvious that it is the guilt and shame that is permanently present subconsciously as the "I am no good" story. It is the guilt and shame that I don't want to look at. I wrote a huge list of events from my life where I felt guilt or shame. It went back in time to my early childhood. To feeling unwanted, the abuse, the neglect, the abandonment. And finally to this one belief: my mum doesn't love me.

avva

good evening Avva,

It seems obvious that it is the guilt and shame that is permanently present subconsciously

To be rid of the guilt and shame, we need to change how we feel about them. We do this by being willing to experience what of them has been embedded (held subconsciously)

And finally to this one belief: my mum doesn't love me.

It's how you feel about this that is the toxic starting point.
No amount of thinking or talking about it will change it.
Allowing the pain of it to be acknowledged is how it will dissolve.
How that will happen is dependent on available conditions. (I'm optimistic)

much love

vince

Dear Avva,

Nice to meet you. I talked with Vince and I am happy to work with you here. For starters, please write me in broad strokes where you are at in this process in your own experience? What do you wish? What has moved? Where/what is the challenge you hope for us to meet skillfully together?

Hi Elad

Nice to meet you too. Thank you for being my guide. It’s much appreciated.

I think it would be helpful to briefly tell you my story.

7 years ago I read Eckhart Tolle’s books and realised that the thoughts in my head were not “mine” and they didn’t have to be believed
4 years ago I had a 3-second glimpse in which I clearly saw that there was no “me” – then fear of insanity shut it down
2 years ago I started meditating, read ACIM and books about positive thinking
I started practising forgiveness, positive thinking and radical acceptance
For 8 months I was experiencing strong waves of gratitude and joy, finding everything beautiful
In September last year a dark period started in which sadness dominated. There were periods of crying for a few seconds without any story attached to them. I didn’t know why I was crying, only that I was sad for some reason. It felt like all the sadness I had ever experienced in my life wanted to come out
I had two sessions with an awakening teacher, who told me that she could energetically feel that I had had some kind of initial awakening experience and now I was in the “dark night of the soul”
I joined LU and had a wonderful guide (Henri). It was going well for a while but then I started to get depressed about my thoughts not being “me”
During one of the exercises related to the body I had another 3-second glimpse in which I saw that the body was not “me” but just a lifeless object, almost like a corpse – then fear shut it down
Issues around childhood trauma and feelings of unworthiness came up for the first time during my LU inquiry – I realised for the first time that I had childhood trauma and that feelings of unworthiness were connected to it
I decided to stop the LU inquiry at that point because of depression
I joined vince’s group but was unable to participate because I was always on the verge of crying
I started therapy sessions with a professional therapist – had 4 sessions with her working on childhood trauma and feelings of unworthiness – after 4 sessions my dark period stopped and I was back to gratitude and joy
I joined Helen Hamilton’s sangha and was part of it for 4 months – during this time I was happy and confident that my awakening was unfolding as it should
Doubts started to emerge about the process, left the sangha and rejoined vince’s group
I realised that I had been doing spiritual bypassing – when a negative feeling came up I told myself that there was no-one here and suppressed the feeling that way – after realising this I stopped bypassing and allowed all feelings again
I had another 3-second glimpse in which I saw myself from the outside sitting on the couch and knowing that it was only a body and there was no-one there – then fear shut it down
During one of vince’s meetings I blurted out that I was feeling unworthy and started to cry – which prompted vince to kindly offer his help – I asked him to be my guide on the Forum again and he was willing
I had 5 private sessions with vince, which were very helpful and productive – we worked on my childhood trauma
About a month ago I contracted Covid and was very unwell – I had nausea and vomited – I tried to accept the conditions and the horrible nausea but couldn’t – then when I thought “I accept that I can’t accept it” it became more bearable and finally stopped – during recovery I felt all my feelings and a lot of guilt and shame came up which were all felt and released
After the 4th vince session in which vince said that the “I” was a wound from my childhood, I had a powerful experience in which I released my mum and my trauma (which was very painful) – after that I felt that the “I” went away with my mum
Immediately after this experience a silence came to the mind – a loud inner sound could be heard and most of the thoughts were gone – this state still continues to this day
The body seems to be moving around on its own without thinking – there is powerful mindfulness during the day and meditations are easy and not very different from what is here all day long
I joined a fetter group led by Steffi who was guided through the fetters by Christiane Michelberger – during the first session she asked me if I had a clear shift in perception and I said “no” because that is the truth – so she thinks I haven’t broken the first fetter and I sort of agree, so I am back at LU for my third run!

“What do you wish?”
I wish to have a clear shift in perception.

“What has moved?”
I can see clearly that the body acts, thinks and experiences on its own, without a conscious manager. There are doubts about whether this knowing is only conceptual or not – I can’t tell. There are still self-referential thoughts going through the mind, which are momentarily believed then seen through as nonsense. There doesn’t seem to be a sense of self any more – but it might just be suppressed somehow – I don’t know.

“Where/what is the challenge you hope for us to meet skillfully together?”
Perhaps you can help me come to a point where there is either a clear shift or a shattering of all doubts.

avva

Dear Avva,

First of all it sounds like a beautiful and profound process is unfolding all ready. This means a lot of what we will "be doing" and what "is called for" is "nothing". Or in other words, to see what is all ready happening, in real time, one moment at the time. Sit with these words for a while, maybe read them a few times, then let me know what is seen/felt/experienced.

Should you feel inspired to it - and ONLY if you feel inspired to it - play and experiment also with the following exercise. I use the words play and experiment on purpose, rather then solve, because I think that with the depth of the process all ready happening with you, including on an emotional, relational and energetic level, its particularly important to have a flexible and "feminine" (this word might not be exactly right, but I hope it conveys a certain vibe) attitude.


Excercise:

Be curious for moments where it seems there is a sense of self or 'I', and when you notice that sense of self arises in a particular moment at some point in the day, try to stay with it at the level it's arisen and ask yourself if there is a belief that you are that &/or that it is you?

If the answer is yes, the second part of the exercise is to look more closely at what this sense of self is made up of.

If the answer is no, make a note of what that sense of self was made up of, and go back to looking and see if you can find any other sense of self that you would answer yes to the question above, and if so then proceed to the second part as above.

-----

One last thing. You wrote about moments where the body was being experienced as if lifeless. To me this sounds like a mental interpretation of a shift in experience, rather than the DE of the shift. Does that make sense? I think this is important because such an interpretation (without me the body/the world is lifeless) would naturally evoke fear and depression. DE is beyond concepts such as lifeless. Let me know if this resonates with you.

Hi Elad

Thank you for your answer.

“play and experiment also with the following exercise”

This is the same exercise that Steffi suggested to me and I have been doing it for 2 weeks now. When I ask myself, “Is there a sense of self?” the answer is a total blank. Silence. The mind seems to be struggling with the word “self”. So I ask, “Am I doing this?”, and the answer is total silence again. The mind is struggling to interpret the word “I”, it seems. It might be because the mind is somehow suppressing the conscious understanding of these words because there is something in me that doesn’t want to understand these words, that is pretending that there is no more sense of me.

There are self-referential thoughts about the “I”. For example, “I need to do the washing-up.” Then another thought comes, “Who is this ‘I’ that needs to do the washing-up?” Then another thought says, “The programme is talking.”

On the other hand, the avva character seems to be here somehow. It seems to have memories that happened to “her”. It seems to have likes and dislikes and opinions. And it’s clear that the avva character is not here in DE. It comes in with thoughts.

Thoughts seem to appear in the conscious mind in non-verbal form, and the conscious mind assigns words to them with the feeling that words cannot completely convey the thoughts. In that non-verbal state of thoughts, there is a lingering feeling of an “I”.

“Let me know if this resonates with you.”
Yes, it does. With all three glimpses there was a mental interpretation and fear.

Okay, good. Assuming you will do some work with the first paragraph I sent you and let me know what is experienced.

Re this last mail.

Imagine for a moment you know nothing about no self and nonduality, or just don't bother with it. You are now meeting a person you feel very positively and trusting towards, and you want them to get to know you really well. How do you describe yourself? What charachteristics? What life story? What relationships? If you were going for being really autentic and intimate, so your hearts could touch, what would you share? Write it out.

Then write me what is experienced.

Hi Elad

“This means a lot of what we will "be doing" and what "is called for" is "nothing". Or in other words, to see what is all ready happening, in real time, one moment at the time. Sit with these words for a while, maybe read them a few times, then let me know what is seen/felt/experienced.”

The process is already unfolding and all I need to do is allow everything to happen on its own – and even that sounds ridiculous.

“How do you describe yourself? What charachteristics? What life story? What relationships? If you were going for being really autentic and intimate, so your hearts could touch, what would you share? Write it out.”

I would say that there is nothing here but love. There is silence and it’s full of love. And everything else is a story. The sadness, the crying, the shame and the guilt, the feelings of unworthiness and inadequacy, they all seem to be just stories, attached to this human body. I wouldn’t be able to say much more than that, I’m afraid. I am struggling to keep up a conversation with my best friends because there is nothing to say. All I want to say is that they are wonderful and that I love them and that everything is okay.

avva

Beautiful!

Let's just chill and enjoy what you wrote here :)

And when it feels like something new wants to be expressed write again.

Thoughts appear in the conscious mind in a non-verbal form. They are formulated into words by the conscious mind - that is why it feels like the conscious mind is producing them. It's like when people are channelling - non-verbal thought blocks appear in their mind, which they put into words.

What is it that feels that I am thinking these thoughts? The I is another non-verbal thought that appears with every thought, with every movement of the body, and with every perception. It is attached to everything. Even if the conscious mind rejects the word "I", the deep semi-unconscious feeling is here.