Well, then. Shall we?

[susanlee]

outside thought, belief or memory - no susan, no place, no thing....is that what was seen? What do you mean by "is that what was seen?" Do you mean seen with the eyes or seen with the understanding? Nothing was seen with the eyes. don't know for sure if that is what was seen...can't remember exactly, but it was more thought or understood I believe. I remember thinking susan (and every thing else imaginable) must only be inside thought, belief or memory ...then thinking that it wasn't possible for her(or any other imaginable thing) to be outside thought, belief or memory and then feeling like the frustration had lifted and a kind of relief. right now, sitting in that relief, I can be ok to just be here forever, and I notice there is still an expectation to transcend something...

should I stop here and start over with the original question??? what or where is susan outside thought belief or memory?
if so , I will, if not....see below.

You say awakening just happens.....so just sit and wait?.... is there anything to encourage awakening, some metaphorical alarm clock to set or something?

If there is resistance or fear, it is not obvious at the moment... and no feeling of loss of susan is obvious. oops.. there is a bite in the thought of a loss of the idea that 'she can awaken.' I guess I was actually really counting on that, and had pre-conceived ideas about that. that is what 'I' want. to awaken....hmmmm. why do I want that? because I have ideas, thoughts & beliefs that it is a desirable goal and that I will know reality for real and I will be completely free of any delusions. I have thoughts and beliefs that other people have awakened and are free of delusion. 'Free of delusion' is just a thought. what does 'free of delusion' mean? peace....bliss.....joy....mastery..... all those meanings are just thoughts & beliefs with meanings that are just thoughts & beliefs. for some reason this line of thinking is bringing me a sense of peace.....not sure why....or if its important....or just another experience as you mentioned earlier. oh, I think the sense of peace is because the need to awaken left. feels real good to let that go....feels like freedom....lol.

I am feeling a great upsurge of joy right now.... what next? love,susan

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

For now, put aside all expectations of awakening because it will only distract. Let's refocus.

What we're working on is finding the truth of reality of self.

To take a look at what you'd found out about the self so far: "outside thought, belief or memory - no susan, no place, no thing"

We'll also look at that within the context of your question on being "completely free of any delusions"....

If Susan exists only within beliefs, thoughts, and memories, how is that different than the existence of Santa, Unicorns, or Fairies?

Belief vs. reality

As a child, were you told stories about Santa? He was quite real until suddenly he wasn't. The truth was revealed and life went on unchanged except for the absence of belief.

Now, take a look at your surroundings. Is it necessary for a self to be there in order for life to happen? As you wake up in the morning and get ready for the day, is a self necessary for any of the actions to take place or do they just happen?

Which is true each morning?

"I", Wake up.
or
I Wake up.

Who wakes Susan?

Please let me know what you find.

[susanlee]

there is no difference in the existence of susan or santa or unicorns (again lol)... and life goes on unchanged.

no self is necessary for life to happen or for any actions to take place.

'i', wake-up is true each morning. oops.... maybe its wake-up, 'i'.....don't know for sure....maybe i & wake-up is simultaneous?

who wakes susan? don't know.....wow, that is a real mystery. do you know?

will try to pay close attention tomorrow morning and let you know what I find.

I really like this whatever it is. Thank you very much.

good night. susan

[susanlee]

Good Morning Valarie,
ok, woke up a little after 5am and again at around 7:30 and again around 9am. from not aware of anything, to suddenly awake and here. still don't know how that happens or who wakes susan.

Does anyone actually know? Is it possible to know?

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

Great looking. Now, check to see whether the body and brain just woke up without a self or an "I" doing the waking of the body and brain.

And what about the other activities in getting ready for the day? Is an "I" or self needed for any of those to happen? Brushing the teeth, combing the hair, taking sips of coffee or tea....

Remember, this is about checking for the presence or absence of a self, the referent for the "I". Look for the controller of these activities to see if one can be found. We're checking for nothing more than this.

Thank you! Let's continue. :)

[Delma]

As a matter of fact, let's try this.... go through the rest of the day imagining there is no "I" or self controlling anything at all just to see what that would be like.

Without that self, would daily living be different than it is now?

[Delma]

Good morning, Susan! :)

How did the experiment go? Was there a need for an "I" as tasks were carried out, or did the "I" appear only upon reflecting or recalling the day?

[susanlee]

it was kind of weird... it seems everything is just happening..... and doesn't need an 'I'. I am flummoxed at this point... i don't have a definite answer... my plan was to continue to try to notice what is actually happening today since I don't have a definite answer. At times I have a definite answer that there is no need for an I.....and then at other times, I am not sure.....at no time did it seem to be that there is definitely a need for an 'I'. but wanted to keep looking to be sure.

what do you think?....keep looking?
love,susan

[Delma]

Absolutely! :)

This is all about the experience rather than the words, so, yup.... definitely keep looking. You'll notice something interesting, I think.

Come back with any questions about the experience, ok? Have fun with it in the meantime. It's amazing.

[susanlee]

Good Evening Valarie,

ok. Yesterday. tried to pay attention and quickly eliminated all the things that obviously don't require 'I' such as waking up,breathing, heart beating, digestion, scratch on skin healing and forming a scab, falling asleep, the universe running itself, sunset happening, etc. then eliminated all the thing done mindlessly without a conscious decision like getting up and going to use the toilet and not actually noticing making a conscious choice about it, just doing it...moving my arm to be more comfortable in my chair, being drawn to turn attention to the birds in the tree outside the window, lost in thought meanderings before actually noticing when the thought meanderings began.

After that, it still seemed possible that 'I' had made some choices, like deciding to prepare something to eat, what to wear, whether to do some household chores or not, did some and not others, whether to watch a TV program or not, things like that, but was suspicious of thinking that the 'I' was needed for any of that and couldn't put my finger why I was reluctant to claim ownership of those decisions. so 'decided' (LOL) to keep looking and not jump to conclusions.

Time for bed and an interesting thing happened. At least it seemed interesting ....you tell me if it is important or not.

I layer down and closed my eyes and then disappeared and the whole world disappeared. Just blackness. not sleep. opened my eyes and my body was there and my room was there. closed my eyes again and disappeared again, just blackness.

Now, I have heard others describe a blackness and my recall is that they described being afraid of it. there was no fear, it was just fine. then must have fallen asleep ...noticed a dream, then noticed waking up, body was there, room was there, it was morning.

Went to the office, still trying to see if 'I' made decisions or 'I' was needed ....mostly hours go by where nothing is noticed, just things are happening... and then yes, an 'I' appears when trying to reflect back to see who ran the show. At one point it seemed clear that even a seeming choice starts with a thought. A choice or a decision is just a thought, belief or memory again...just like susan. And having already noticed that thoughts just happen, it seems clear that the the definitive answer that 'I' had nothing to do with anything. Everything just happens. It is a real wondrous mystery. there seems to be a fresh appreciation for the whole show.

Again, with much gratitude for leading me to this wonder and appreciation...love, susan

[Delma]

Hi Susan,

I really do love how you give all of this such deep consideration and investigation. There is no 'work' on the part of the guide, it's all being done in the same way "Susan" is being done. There is a thought which appears here. Things get typed, reading happens 'there', and action takes place. Interconnected dependencies without a self anywhere in the picture!

So, from here we should solidify this understanding because though I believe things are becoming really very clear, there are usually lingering, "but what about?" :)

Where would you like to explore? We can take a look at how the self is formed. For that I'd suggest checking to see whether your daughter was born with a self, or whether 'you' and other 'you's' taught it to her. :)

Again, I love how this entire thread is happening, and how you are uncovering the truth.

Let me know about how the self is formed, and whether you can see that in your own direct experience.

(And, I know... it's funny that we have to use pronouns, but I think we understand what we mean now. )

Enjoy,
Valarie

[susanlee]

Hi Valarie,

you always come up with the perfect next question or consideration.

I receive an email every morning with a quote from Byron Katie. Today's quote was "whatever is in front of you is your guru" and just as I read that my daughter called. She is going through some romantic turmoils right now and wanted to commiserate. Since I had just read the BK quote, I looked at my daughter as my guru, and at that moment decided to notice what that guru was there to teach. What was clear was that whatever she seemed to be was my only thoughts, beliefs and memories. I noticed how much of a narrow definition of her I had been believing. noticing that seemed to allow an opening to a much more expansive definition ...a willingness to be open to whatever.....

my daughter was born with a fully formed self .... and that self was only my fully formed thoughts, memories and beliefs. I don't have a clue who or what 'my daughter' actually is.... As she talked I felt totally accepting and open to see the mystery of how it would unfold. Almost a contradictory awareness of something like 'she is a figment of my imagination' and yet felt so much more in love and compassion in relation to that figment of thought, than when I believed she was a real separate self.....this is really strange. Even while recognizing the fact that she was only my thoughts, I felt great joy in being as open, loving and compassionate as possible. My resistances and judgements that normally arise during our interactions seemed to melt away and were unimportant. just felt very open and accepting.

shortly after this phone conversation....I read your post and thought 'how perfect' .... so I took a few moments to recall what had just happened so that I could write about it later in my response to your post. When I first read your post I just laughed and laughed because I thought.....how the self is formed?.....that is so funny.....it is formed just like everything else.....poof, it seemingly appears out of nothing.....poof poof poof. I love that word...poof.

I could go into a story of my daughter's birth and growth.....a story I have found fascinating for many years....if you really want to hear it, I will tell it (maybe) it almost seems like too much effort to go into all that.....and it seems totally irrelevant at this point ....as all of that was always such a narrow, confined, & boring product of a narrow, confined and boring mind...

as I wrote the bit above about a narrow, confined and boring mind something is causing me to notice how wonderfully amazing, expansive and exciting mind is also....I guess its not fair to disparage mind....it does an amazing job in each moment to the best of its ability. Actually very amazing ability.... awesome really. poof, poof & poof and more and more and more variety appears in infinitely creative expressions.

I am so appreciative of this whole thread also.....There is a great sense of satisfaction in this whole thing....as well as fun. I really look forward to each of your responses.....they always seem to point to the perfect next place to explore.

love, susan

[Delma]

What a beautiful post.



...Makes me just want to let you sit with this for a bit before we explore more.


But if you're inclined to keep looking at the fact of no You, I have some experiments. Because where we'd like to end up in this exchange is to clearly see that there is no you, no separate self, and that there never has been one. We want this to be unshakeable, or at least to the point where you're able to just take a look every time it comes up, and confirm that it's just a thought, just an idea.

Please take a look within each of the senses to look for a self. Carefully examine each sense to see whether there is a separation between what is traditionally broken up into three components.

When an object is seen, is there a seer or just seeing happening?
When a sound is heard, is there a hearer or just hearing happening?
When your favorite dessert is tasted, is there a taster or just tasting happening?
When a sensation appears, is there a sensor or just sensing happening?

Further explore the amazing world where the separate self is completely unecessary... a false boundary imposed by thought.

Enjoy!
Valarie

[susanlee]

interesting .... just sit with this for a bit.

Yesterday, I also had the thought that I was enjoying each of these explorations so much that it might be nice to go back to your first post and just dwell with each one for an extended period; several days, a week or a month or even longer maybe.....don't know. Just really enjoying this.

This new exploration regarding the senses is already so appealing. I just took a moment to look at an object with the first question in mind and sort of immediately blissed out, so am drawn to keep looking at these senses questions today and watch what is found.

love, susan

[Delma]

Bliss is ok, but also examine them practically. There's a very pragmatic side to awakening which is where the stability lies. In seeking bliss, it can fall away so easily. In seeking truth, it's always True.

Go for that. Always go for that. :)