Beginner looking for liberation

[Elad]

This seems that things are just happening without anyone in charge. Feelings do arise, interactions happening …

About free will
I don’t think there is free will. At least I can’t find it. The I sense/the me is kind of commenting it, but is not in charge or in controlling. The decision to move my hand or not is always „pre-done“ There is no way to get n front of it.

Right on! Is there a me that is commenting after, or are there just thoughts including thoughts with the content claim "my choice"?

What is Johannes?

Was there ever a separate self?

How does it feel to see what is seen?

[Jay85]

It feels like thoughts and me are the same substance. Me is a thought which is believed in. The believe is also a thought. It seems to be a circle.

Johannes is a thought

If there is no self in the now, there has never been one.

The are contractions in the body. My mind is searching for distraction

[Elad]

"It feels like thoughts and me are the same substance. Me is a thought which is believed in. The believe is also a thought. It seems to be a circle.

Johannes is a thought

If there is no self in the now, there has never been one. "

Right.

"The are contractions in the body."

It is quite normal for strong feelings/sensations/moods/energies to flow through in this process. The best to do is meet it with as much kindness, acceptance and genuineness as possible. And not look to manage or control it.

Are the contractions "you" or just a natural unfolding?

"My mind is searching for distraction"

Yes, its normal to have avidance/distraction activity in the face of strong sensations.

As for "my mind" can a "my mind" be found as something more than a thought?

[Jay85]

This acceptance and kindness thing has always been an issue for me. How do I surrender?! The mind is trying to find a concept for it. It’s tricky.

The energies themselves are innocent and not really a problem, it’s the mind which tries to build a case, a me case. While writing this, I understand more and more that thought, mind and me are the same substance. What is it?

[Elad]

"This acceptance and kindness thing has always been an issue for me. How do I surrender?! The mind is trying to find a concept for it. It’s tricky."

Concepts will only leave you in the realm of ideas. And all words are at best pointers. If these pointers don't resonate with you now leave it. At some later point they might open.

"The energies themselves are innocent and not really a problem,"

Right.

"it’s the mind which tries to build a case, a me case."

So just thoughts and beliefs.

"While writing this, I understand more and more that thought, mind and me are the same substance. What is it?"

Good question for yourself. What do you see? Remember, don't analyze it. Just look at how thoughts appear and disappear etc.


Here are a couple of exercises to deepen the seeing down the line you are walking:


Word “I”

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?
Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?” Is the thought, "I exist" you?
Is the thought "I" you?


Spoon exercise


The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual experience and imagined experience.
Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at ​the imaginary spoon for a while.
Then open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life? So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?
Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same? How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?
Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:

Speak the word “I” silently; be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any
of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?

The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

[Jay85]

Thanks for advising me back on track. Sometime it’s just challenging to differentiate between thought and „not thought“.

So what do I see? I see colors, I feel sensation and a question mark.

About the spoon exercise, just couple of month ago I discovered that I have aphantasia. I was always wondering how people told me that the can imagine things. For me, that was never the case.

The word I feels weird. Writing I, reading it, speaking it out loud feels a bit off. I‘m quite sure that, this is not me.

[Elad]

"Thanks for advising me back on track. Sometime it’s just challenging to differentiate between thought and „not thought“. "

Yes this is the core of what we are here to do!

"So what do I see? I see colors, I feel sensation and a question mark"

Sensations are experienced.

Is there an I experiencing the sensations so that it is "my"sensations or it is just sensations? Look to what is actually found in direct experience!

"About the spoon exercise, just couple of month ago I discovered that I have aphantasia. I was always wondering how people told me that the can imagine things. For me, that was never the case."

However, is there actually "you" in direct experience or is that an imagination, even if the imagination is subtle and not so clear. Aphantasia doesnt really mean that we dont imagine things (in that case everyone with aphantasia would be awake) it just means the imaginations are fleeting and mainly in the background of awareness rather then clear in awareness.

"The word I feels weird. Writing I, reading it, speaking it out loud feels a bit off. I‘m quite sure that, this is not me."

Keep pursuing that, go for clarity, not just "it feels like this or that" (an imagination). Can you actually find anything that "I"refer to or is it only fantasy?

Do this exercise for further clarity:

[Elad]

Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. What is here without labels?
2. Did you notice any differences in the body?
3. Is it more true that experience is "I, mine" or just: it is what it is?

[Jay85]

Dear Elad,

Unfortunately I had no opportunity to do the exercise and sit with our pointings. Sorry for that, busy day with a lot of driving.I’ll get back to you by tomorrow.

Best Johannes

[Elad]

Dear Elad,

Unfortunately I had no opportunity to do the exercise and sit with our pointings. Sorry for that, busy day with a lot of driving.I’ll get back to you by tomorrow.

Best Johannes

🙏🙂

[Jay85]

Hi Elad,

Sorry again. Now I’m back.
I did the exercise. It was really interesting to see there difference.

1. What is here without labels? - There is something, but I don’t know what it is.
2. Did you notice any differences in the body? The body reacts less without an I thought.
3. Is it more true that experience is "I, mine" or just: it is what it is? There is only what is, experience is impersonal.

[Elad]

Is there any separate controller or chooser at all? Is there something you must protect?

[Jay85]

I can’t find any separate controller or someone who is choosing this. Even the words which are typed here are not really chosen by anyone. However it seems that the body/energics trigger the feeling of „no, I have to protect“ something. Strange, because there is nowhere to run, there is nowhere to hide. Is resistance a thought?

[Elad]

I can’t find any separate controller or someone who is choosing this. Even the words which are typed here are not really chosen by anyone. However it seems that the body/energics trigger the feeling of „no, I have to protect“ something. Strange, because there is nowhere to run, there is nowhere to hide. Is resistance a thought?

Eaxtly! Instincts to protect come up, resistances come and go, and yet no one is choosing that and it doesn't refer to a separate self. Normal functioning can continue while it is seen that it doesnt refer to a separate self and is not controlled or chosen.

I think you might be ready for final questions. That is a set of questions designed to test the seeing. We will look at the answer togehter if necessary, afterwards 3 other guides will look. How does it sound to you?

You can also take a day first to just notice how it feels to see and report.

Let me know what feels best to you.

[Jay85]

I‘m happy to move forward. I’m looking for clear seeing and appreciate anything that helps.