Interested in exploring self/no-self

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,


The question of the exploration was "what" not "who". Maybe it wasn't clear enough.
The purpose of this exploration is to see the reaction of your system (mind/toughts and body/sensations) to those affirmations. It will help us to see if there is resistance. And also what is the next step of inquiry.

let's try again.

Exploration:

Here are two differents affirmation.
For each phrase, follow this procedure:

1 - Read the statement, then close your eyes.

2 - Repeat the statement aloud (or in your mind) three times.

3 - Notice the thought reaction.

4 - Notice your body's reaction.

5 - Right down what is your experience before moving to the next one.

Clarification: Be sure to answer the 3 and 4 separatly and for each affirmation.

Here are the two affirmation:
There is no separates entity, anywhere to be find.

There is no individual who have have free will and choice

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

OK, I did that.

There is no separates entity, anywhere to be find.

Thought: "Seems reasonable."
Body: Nothing special.

There is no individual who have have free will and choice

Thought: "Then what are we even doing here? What's the point of it all?"
Body: Didn't notice anything in particular.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I find it interesting that the affirmation:There is no separate entity, anywhere to be found. got almost no reaction form thought or the body.

This affirmation is one of the most profound a being can ask himself. Also the most challenging.
And all I have from you is:
"Seems reasonable. and nothing from the body"

Thought: "Then what are we even doing here? What's the point of it all?"

You tell me.

Why are you in LU?

What do you expect from this conversation?

What do you believe I have that you don't have?

What do you believe I have that I can give to you?

[OfTheField]

Hello David,

I find it interesting that the affirmation:There is no separate entity, anywhere to be found. got almost no reaction form thought or the body. This affirmation is one of the most profound a being can ask himself. Also the most challenging.

I think this is because I have thought about this extensively and it makes physical sense that "separateness" is just a mental category that does not correspond to anything except a way of looking. So this is intellectually OK with me, although I do not have a deep personal understanding of it. As such, when an intellectually accepted idea shows up, my mind simply says "OK, yes, I've concluded this already, yes" and nothing further happens. On the other hand, the "free will" comment triggers resistance because "free will" is not some simply a physical fact. It's something I depend on for my basic self-image.

Why are you in LU?

If there are two ways of experiencing something, I want to experience in a way that has fewer falsehoods. A sphere cannot cut me because it is a sphere. By thinking of it as having no corners, I am closer to the truth of the sphere's actual being than if I was to think that it does have corners, although that full truth cannot be "obtained".

I have read and heard and thought that the "self" does not exist in the way that it appears to. This intellectual thought brought me here. Thus, I want to directly experience the "self' closer to the way that it is, closer to its actual nature.

What do you expect from this conversation?

I expect that you will respond regularly until we reach some end. Maybe I will have a different direct experience of the self that illuminates its nature more so than I have had before.

What do you believe I have that you don't have?

I don't know, really, but maybe an accumulation of direct experiences of your "self" that help you see it in more accurate ways.

What do you believe I have that I can give to you?

You may be able to trigger an experience that allows me to see the "self" in a more accurate way.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Thank you for your honest answer. I can see a path that we can explore.

So this is intellectually OK with me, although I do not have a deep personal understanding of it. As such, when an intellectually accepted idea shows up, my mind simply says "OK, yes, I've concluded this already, yes" and nothing further happens.

What is the "deep personal understanding" should look like?

How would you know of you have it or not?

What has to happen for you to have this deep personal understanding?

although that full truth cannot be "obtained".

I have read and heard and thought that the "self" does not exist in the way that it appears to. This intellectual thought brought me here. Thus, I want to directly experience the "self' closer to the way that it is, closer to its actual nature.

All you have is your Direct Experience. That's all.
What is here is what you are seeking.
If there is something to be found. It HAS to be here(because there is no other place in space that you are aware of) and now( because there is no other moment in time that you are aware of).

There is NO self to be aware of. BUT there is experience.
You seem to be aware of a self.

Can you tell me more about this self without using reference to the past or the futur?

Describe to me how is, this self appearing in your Direct Experience?

Maybe I will have a different direct experience of the self that illuminates its nature more so than I have had before.

Nothing is hiding or secret. EVERYTHING is right here in your experience to be seen.
The question is what the nature of the light that "illuminate" your experience.

Or in a less mystic style :
what is allowing your experience to be known?

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

What is the "deep personal understanding" should look like?

It's the way of seeing. It's how when I get a lot of sleep and it is sunny outside, the world looks and feels a certain way. This way itself is not something I can directly experience, but it colors all direction experience. A self is this "way of looking" that changes how sensations are experienced. They have a flavor of "selfing".

How would you know of you have it or not?

I could only guess by comparing the flavor of experience to descriptions of it.

What has to happen for you to have this deep personal understanding?

I don't know. Best guess: something like "getting" a koan. It just happens at some point, and then the way of looking colors direct experience with less selfing. I understand that this is just concepts.

Can you tell me more about this self without using reference to the past or the future? Describe to me how is, this self appearing in your Direct Experience?

When I close my eyes and have the thought "I exist", there is a feeling. When I close my eyes and have the thought "there is wind", that feeling is much weaker. This feeling is very vague, and has no location in the body (unlike, say, worry, which resides in the chest). It is hard to describe otherwise.

What is allowing your experience to be known?

I don't know. It's self-knowing? There is some kind of perception that the known is being known by something, but I don't have anything to point to besides that simple perception. It's not "located" anywhere. It's just a felt idea.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

Exploration
Find “me” in the body

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of "insert name".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.




Feedback

It's the way of seeing. It's how when I get a lot of sleep and it is sunny outside, the world looks and feels a certain way. This way itself is not something I can directly experience, but it colors all directions of experience. A self is this "way of looking" that changes how sensations are experienced. They have a flavor of "selfing".

There are no objects to be colored by a "way of looking*. The sensations as they appear in your experience are all there is. Your experience IS all there is.

The only way to know anything is through your direct experience.
That is:
* Seeing

* Hearing

* Smelling

* Tasting

* Sensation
(sensation of inside: proprioception, kinesthetic, interoception)
(sensation of outside object/people or touching)

* Thinking

Can you find a self in your direct experience?
Can you find a "selfing"?
Can you find a "way of looking"?

Or do you simply find your direct experience?

I could only guess by comparing the flavor of experience to descriptions of it.

Comparison is impossible because all you have is what is here and now.
When you compare, you are interpreting what is here and now and comparing it with a memory.

But interpretation is a thought and memory is a thought.
So you are comparing a thought with another thought.
You are imagining events that aren't actual and comparing them.

I don't know. Best guess: is something like "getting" a koan. It just happens at some point, and then the way of looking at colors directs experience with less selfing. I understand that this is just a concept.

Direct Experience is never colored or hidden by anything.

What is allowing your experience to be known?

I don't know. Is it self-knowing? There is some kind of perception that the known is being known by something, but I don't have anything to point to besides that simple perception. It's not "located" anywhere. It's just a felt idea.

Beautiful,
This is it!
It is self-knowing.

It is only thought that add:" It must be known by something or someone." This exact thought IS THE SELFING.

When this is not seen clearly, thoughts keep rolling: "Therefore I must be this someone."


Then you are f*** because you will start interpreting all information from this non-existent someone.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

Thanks for going back and forth with me so much.

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

No

Where is it?

I don't know. It seems to be in the same place where any other thoughts are, kind of "in" my head, but not in a physical way the way I feel a gurgling in my stomach (for instance). I experience thoughts as quiet voices behind my eyes. The self is one of those voices. Different thoughts have different feelings/vibes, some of which co-appear with sensations and some don't. For example:

- "This traffic is making me late!" - This thought comes with chest pain.
- "I love my kid." This thought comes with warmth in the torso.
- "The sky is clear today." This thought does not seem to come with any sensation, but has a "calm" vibe. I can't find this vibe, but I experience it.
- "I exist." This thought does not seem to come with any sensation, but has a "self" vibe. Again, I can't find this vibe, but I "experience" it.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

Sensations and responses to them.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

"Self" is not to be found among physical sensations. It's some emergent experience of thoughts.

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Various sensations, colors, felt experiences, etc, etc.

(sensation of inside: proprioception, kinesthetic, interoception)
Can you find a self in your direct experience?
Can you find a "selfing"?
Can you find a "way of looking"?

Or do you simply find your direct experience?

I simply find direct experience, but some part of it that I can't separate out makes the inner thought "Horses are fast" feel different from "I exist." I don't know where it is or how it feels different, but it feels different. Maybe it's one of those myriad "sensations of inside" that I am not keen enough to discern.

It is only thought that add:" It must be known by something or someone." This exact thought IS THE SELFING.

When this is not seen clearly, thoughts keep rolling: "Therefore I must be this someone."

This makes sense to me, but I don't "detect" or "experience' the thought being added "It must be known by something or someone". When I think "I exist", I have the feeling of self. How do I spot the requirement "It must be known by something or someone" that is actually responsible/causal/identical with feeling of self?

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I don't know. It seems to be in the same place where any other thoughts are, kind of "in" my head, but not in a physical way the way I feel a gurgling in my stomach (for instance). I experience thoughts as quiet voices behind my eyes. The self is one of those voices. Different thoughts have different feelings/vibes, some of which co-appear with sensations and some don't. For example:

- "This traffic is making me late!" - This thought comes with chest pain.
- "I love my kid." This thought comes with warmth in the torso.
- "The sky is clear today." This thought does not seem to come with any sensation but has a "calm" vibe. I can't find this vibe, but I experience it.
- "I exist." This thought does not seem to come with any sensation but has a "self" vibe. Again, I can't find this vibe, but I "experience" it.

The voices you hear in your head are thoughts.
Broadly speaking there are 3 kinds of thoughts: Concept, mental image, and mental sound (or voices).
But they are thought in the sense that they appear only "in" your mind. Do you agree with that?
If so, can you find a self in thought?
If you do, tell describe it this self to me.

I don't understand this part:

kind of "in" my head, but not in a physical way the way I feel a gurgling in my stomach (for instance)

The sensation of a head.
The sensation of a stomach.
Do both sensations appear in your experience?

What is a "non-physical way" of experiencing?
Explore this "in". Tell me more about this. Inside what?

"Self" is not to be found among physical sensations. It's some emergent experience of thoughts.

What do you mean by "emergent experience of thoughts?
You agreed and checked for yourself that there is no self in thought. So I don't understand.

I simply find direct experience, but some part of it that I can't separate out makes the inner thought "Horses are fast" feel different from "I exist." I don't know where it is or how it feels different, but it feels different. Maybe it's one of those myriad "sensations of inside" that I am not keen enough to discern.

I don't understand the problem here. Your body reacts to different thoughts, just like mine.

If I think about: "Horses are fast" "I exist" or "putting my hand into the fire"
My sensation field will react differently to each thought.
Of course, every thought will produce a different tone in my experience.

I don't understand the struggle you are having with that. Can you explain the confusion/problme you are having to me?

This makes sense to me, but I don't "detect" or "experience' the thought being added "It must be known by something or someone". When I think "I exist", I have the feeling of self. How do I spot the requirement "It must be known by something or someone" that is actually responsible/causal/identical with feeling of self?

I am having a semantic issue here. Because I don't know what the word "feeling" means to you. I am under the impression that this world hides a lot of unseen believe.

For the sake of clarity, let's agree to stop using the world feeling. (Or at least try to.)
Is that okay for you?

For example when you said: "feeling of self" what is that?
Because as we saw before:
direct experience is composed of:
* Seeing
* Hearing
* Smelling
* Tasting
* Sensation
(sensation of inside: proprioception, kinesthetic, interoception)
(sensation of outside object/people or touching)
* Thinking

So which one of those is "...... of self"?

[OfTheField]

Hi again,

For the sake of clarity, let's agree to stop using the world feeling. (Or at least try to.)
Is that okay for you?

Of course, every thought will produce a different tone in my experience.

I don't understand the struggle you are having with that. Can you explain the confusion/problme you are having to me?

Yes, we can stop using the word "feeling". Your word "tone" is precisely what I mean by feeling.

If so, can you find a self in thought?
If you do, tell describe it this self to me.

My "self" is a specific tone that arises with the thought "I exist" or arises when someone calls my name across the room or arises when I feel insulted. So I can find the "tone" readily.

What is a "non-physical way" of experiencing?
Explore this "in". Tell me more about this. Inside what?

By "inside" I meant "is experienced as being located in the middle of my head." On the other hand, the "tone" has no location. Thus, I don't experience it "physically". I experience it as "knowing that there is a tone".

The next question: is this "tone" me? No, it is not me, but it co-arises along with "me"-related thoughts. The "me"-related thoughts and the "self"-tone together are what I refer to as "self".

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

This conversation is very interesting. I rarely use the word "tone". Suddenly I found myself with your proposition to switch "feeling" with "tone". But I realize I used this world, tone, but I have no idea what it mean really for me.

So I asked myself what tone meant to me.
This morning and during the day I watched my experience very carefully.

Asking what tone meant to me.
What is a tone in direct experience?
How do I know there is a tone?

I conclude that "tone" means a very subtle emotion. When I stayed with it I could only find emotions (which are thoughts and sensations.)

But this is my conclusion. Now you have to do the same.
Look at your direct experience. Look with sensitivity and find out what the concept of "tone" refers to. Be sure to watch what is in your direct experience only.

Tell me what you find.
Do you arrive at the same conclusion?
If not please tell me what it means for you.

Also, you didn't answer this question. I want to know what is bothering you:

I simply find direct experience, but some part of it that I can't separate out makes the inner thought "Horses are fast" feel different from "I exist." I don't know where it is or how it feels different, but it feels different. Maybe it's one of those myriad "sensations of inside" that I am not keen enough to discern.

I don't understand the problem here. Your body reacts to different thoughts, just like mine.

If I think about: "Horses are fast" "I exist" or "putting my hand into the fire"
My sensation field will react differently to each thought.
Of course, every thought will produce a different tone(or subtle emotion reaction) in my experience.

I don't understand the struggle you are having with that.

Can you explain the confusion/problem you are having?

Please be sure to answer all questions separately using the "quote".
It is important to keep a clear dialogue and that allows me to not leave any blind spots behind us.

[OfTheField]

Hello,

Please be sure to answer all questions separately using the "quote".
It is important to keep a clear dialogue and that allows me to not leave any blind spots behind us.

Will do, thank you.

Tell me what you find.
Do you arrive at the same conclusion?
If not please tell me what it means for you.

I looked into this extensively during meditation today. It seems like many thoughts are accompanied by slight body sensations. The thoughts "I exist" or "My head hurts" in particular are accompanied by a minor pain right below my lower-most left rib and a blooming of light tension that spans the neck to the sternum. Sometimes one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both. During the end of the meditation, I was able to refer to "I" in my mind with less tension/bodily pain, and, correspondingly, the feeling of "self" was less strong.

Can you explain the confusion/problem you are having?

I think the confusion is resolved. I now agree that "self" is composed of (a) certain types of thoughts and (b) certain types of tone aka bodily sensations. Both (a) and (b) co-arise and I have been habitually identifying this as "self".

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

I looked into this extensively during meditation today. It seems like many thoughts are accompanied by slight body sensations. The thoughts "I exist" or "My head hurts" in particular are accompanied by a minor pain right below my lowermost left rib and a blooming of light tension that spans the neck to the sternum. Sometimes one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both. During the end of the meditation, I was able to refer to "I" in my mind with less tension/bodily pain, and, correspondingly, the feeling of "self" was less strong.

We have the habit of using concepts and writing words without REALLY knowing what they mean to us. Just like you for "feelings" and me for "tone". It is fine in everyday life, there is no need to become rigid and obsessed about it.
But it can be life-changing to explore the meaning of the concepts in that deep way you just did.

Exploring the sensation field is important for this process. Keep it up.

I think the confusion is resolved. I now agree that "self" is composed of (a) certain types of thoughts and (b) certain types of tone aka bodily sensations. Both (a) and (b) co-arise and I have been habitually identifying this as "self".

This is a huge revelation.

What happens in you when you stay with this experiential understanding?

How is your sensation field react to it?



Let's support this understanding with this exploration:
Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise that examines how the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:


1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? There are some. Check your Sensations, particularly in your gut/ solar plexus.

[OfTheField]

Hi David,

What happens in you when you stay with this experiential understanding?

How is your sensation field react to it?

You know, not much of a reaction. I closed my eyes, and sat there triggering the pain in my chest/sternum by referring to self in various ways. I didn't experience much of a reaction to this understanding.

I did the mind labeling exercise.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

They seemed similar in truth when I was explicitly looking at the sensory reaction to the two types of statements.

2. What is here without labels?

Sensory experience of existing.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

Labeling seems to interrupt the experience. It's hard to have the experience and the label at once. After the label, my attention usually goes somewhere else instead of the original experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? There are some. Check your Sensations, particularly in your gut/ solar plexus.

The labels that involve self co-arise with some fairly repeatable chest tension. But even the other action-only labels seem to add some subtle bodily sensations as they arise, although these responses are less predictable and harder to pin down into a pattern.

[Windaway]

Hello Sergey,

They seemed similar in truth when I was explicitly looking at the sensory reaction to the two types of statements.

So in your experience :

I am sitting on a chair.

And

Sitting on a chair,

Are the same?


Tell me more about this "I" that is sitting on the chair?

The world "I" and "self" are the same. So the question can be: What is showing you the existance of this "I" or "self" sitting on a chair?

Few message back you wrote:

I think the confusion is resolved. I now agree that "self" is composed of (a) certain types of thoughts and (b) certain types of tone aka bodily sensations. Both (a) and (b) co-arise and I have been habitually identifying this as "self".

Can you take this understanding within you when you do the last exercises?

Let me know how to goes.

Ps: I have to 3 days hollyday with my family. I will do my best to answer but I may not find space.