Need to stop going in circles on this, if this forum is a way out then I am pleading for help

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Your answer is pure GOLD. Now I know where to go next.

Exploration:
Read these statements. Take the time that feels right for each of them to notice the reactions in your sensations. Please note that the questions do not need to be answered; they are simply used to assess body sensation feedback.:
(when I use the world “answer” in those statements. I am talking about the answer to the previous question: Who I am?)

Thought never had the answer.

Thought don’t have the answer.

Thought will never have the answer.


Whatever I am, thought never new.

Whatever I am, thought doesn’t know.

Whatever I am, thought will never know.


Do I need to know who I am, to be?

Who cares?


Feedback:

Sat with this for a while, and in movement too. Still not finding the answer in direct experience.
….
Do I just keep looking? Looking for the looker or the "I" that is looking? Any 'search' or movement elsewhere or uncertainty makes no sense, if there's always the I searching, I moving, I being uncertain. Always here and now.

I have no answer for you. But being in a poetic mood, I still want to quote William Shakespeare:

“for the eye sees not itself,
but by reflection, by some other things.”

[SeanS]

Thought never had the answer.
Thought don’t have the answer.
Thought will never have the answer.

Calm sensations. Pleasantness starting with the second statement. Relaxed and stable.
There is one familiar but hard to identify sensation that felt distinct, somewhere close to the chest and base of the throat. Felt weirdly hollow and… not tight, not unpleasant, but rigid/unmoving. Not flowing like the rest. Stuck, maybe.

Whatever I am, thought never new.
Whatever I am, thought doesn’t know.
Whatever I am, thought will never know.

Even before reading the 6th statement, I noticed a slight resistance to the thought of it arising. More mental than physical, the body-sense losing focus, but minor tension in the face too.
There’s a strong attachment to understanding and knowing, practically the main motivation for the inquiry as paradoxical as it is.

As if “maybe thought won’t LEAD TO the answer, but it’ll understand it once the ‘answer’ is found elsewhere.”
And “How could thought not know, after ‘I’ find out?” - But do thoughts know ANYTHING? just flat images and words reflecting experience. And can ‘I’ even find out, is that what this process is actually about? More and more beliefs and thoughts surfacing.

Sat with the 6th for a lot longer, after noticing those beliefs and thoughts, and sensations changed a lot. The 'stuck' hollow sensation went up to the top of the throat / mouth, then slowly faded - but then there was a lot of tension in the jaws, felt like there was no comfortable, ‘neutral’ position to put the lower jaw in, until it just slowly dropped as low as it could without effort. Some tension released but not all.

Do I need to know who I am, to be?

Pressure building in the forehead and side of the skull. Not unpleasant.

Who cares?

Laughter, then more neutral pressure surrounding skull. More thoughts and beliefs arising and being noticed.

“for the eye sees not itself,
but by reflection, by some other things.”

Yeah... Noticing a lot of built up beliefs about all of this, and a lot of thoughts about what is really the 'goal' of this inquiry, what ‘the right way’ to ask / look is. Is there even one? Or is it just noticing, just seeing clearly what comes up?

This morning though, before reading this post, kept asking the question and there was a lot of peace, quiet, thoughts calming down to almost nothing. Just noticing sensations. Seemed so simple compared to all the thoughts about it.
Curious if there’s some avoidance of just staying with that.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

A lot come up with this exploration. The way you are capable of exploring sensation is great.
Noticing the thought allow you to be more aware of sensations. A big part of the process is noticing the flatness of thought, that way your attention will naturally effortlessly orient toward other “stuff” in your experience.

A useful way to understand this easy path, is to think in thermes of sensitivity. Is not that you “step out” of thought to entering something else. No. Is not that thought need to stop to see something else. No.

Sensitivity is growing. Awareness is expanding allowing the noticing of thoughts AND the noticing of sensations.
Think about this process in terme of seeing/noticing always more. There are thought and sensation and perception and this and that and… and… This is a path of inclusion.

Saying that thoughts are a problem or that they hide something is the same as saying:
“Move away those god damn leaves I cannot see the forest.”

Exploration:
For this exploration sit on a chair. Close your eyes or look straight forward.

Eyes open (looking straight) or eyes close you have no visual perception of this “chair”. Correct?

Thought tell you that : “this sensation is a chair.”
Thought can show you a mental image of a chair.
But is concept and image the actual chair?

Does thought can know the actual chair on which you’re sitting?
Can the thought: “this is a chair.” Know the actual chair?
Can the image of “a chair” know the actual chair?

I use the world chair but all you know in your direct experience is a sensation.
So, the question is not can thought know a chair but can thought know sensation?

Is the actual sensation you feel right now known by thought or by you?

Take any thought popping into your mind. And check if any thought can know a sensation.

Maybe is the other way around?
Can sensation know thought?
Is this sensation knowing the mental image of a chair?
Is this sensation knowing the concept: Chair?

If not. Then two questions:
What is that which knows?
Who is the one who knows?



Feedback:

As if “maybe thought won’t LEAD TO the answer, but it’ll understand it once the ‘answer’ is found elsewhere.”
And “How could thought not know, after ‘I’ find out?” - But do thoughts know ANYTHING? just flat images and words reflecting experience. And can ‘I’ even find out, is that what this process is actually about? More and more beliefs and thoughts surfacing.

A part of me want to give you information or explanation. But I don’t think it is the best approach.
What I can say is that Knowledge is not in thought. It is in the space of noticing. The more you dive into it, the more it will be revealed to you.
I don’t want to sound mysterious. It is simple. Juste as when you notice that thoughts are flat. Something was revealed to you and your experience changed (in the sense that your way of seeing changed).
A revelation always feels obvious. This obviousness is Knowledge pouring into your experience.

A positive aspect to have a guide is that I can tell you if you are walking on the wrong direction. So, you can walk eyes blinded with more confidence and trust. I also want to mention that I have another guide reading every post to be sure that we are on the right track. So, you have 2 layers of support here.

Yeah... Noticing a lot of built up beliefs about all of this, and a lot of thoughts about what is really the 'goal' of this inquiry, what ‘the right way’ to ask / look is. Is there even one? Or is it just noticing, just seeing clearly what comes up?

You wrote this at your inscription in LU:

“LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That the self is an unconscious assumption born of ignorance, conditioning and maybe survival instincts, not some truth about life or even something necessary past a certain point. An addiction to conceptualization and identification with thoughts keeps us trapped in that illusion for life, but there HAS to be a way out, right?”

My purpose is to show you “the way out ». By supporting you to recover from your addiction to thoughts/beliefs and imagination. Simply pointing to what is here and now.

This morning though, before reading this post, kept asking the question and there was a lot of peace, quiet, thoughts calming down to almost nothing. Just noticing sensations. Seemed so simple compared to all the thoughts about it.

It is simple. Keep on that track.

[SeanS]

A useful way to understand this easy path, is to think in thermes of sensitivity.

…This is a path of inclusion.

...Saying that thoughts are a problem or that they hide something is the same as saying:
“Move away those god damn leaves I cannot see the forest.”

Thank you for all of that. Sensitivity and Inclusion, Awareness expanding - that clarifies a lot.

But is concept and image the actual chair?

Does thought can know the actual chair on which you’re sitting?
Can the thought: “this is a chair.” Know the actual chair?
Can the image of “a chair” know the actual chair?

No, thoughts cannot know “reality” or the actual ‘things’ they label / refer to. they are just flat, substanceless representations. Words and images.

So, the question is not can thought know a chair but can thought know sensation?
Is the actual sensation you feel right now known by thought or by you?
Take any thought popping into your mind. And check if any thought can know a sensation.

Thought cannot know sensation, it never does. Like a movie screen cannot know the texture or weight or substance of the objects it is presenting as images - there is only the image, only the word or concept.

In my experience sensation is known by “me” regardless of thought. Though even here I can’t pinpoint what this “me” that knows sensation is, just that there is sensation and awareness of it.

Can sensation know thought?
Is this sensation knowing the mental image of a chair?
Is this sensation knowing the concept: Chair?

No. Sensation can’t know thought, total disconnect between the two. I can’t know “Chair” besides as a direct sensation, and a conceptual thought. Neither can “have” the other. And there is no chair in my experience besides in those two ways.

What is that which knows?
Who is the one who knows?

Sitting with this, though not as much time in quiet today - will try during activity too.
Any conceptual answer (including this) is just another thought known by it, any sensation arising is just another sensation known by it.

Always here, always present, never in the past or future, never needs to be found or even looked for, like the eye looking for itself. Everything experienced or known includes it. No need to “do” anything to get to it. Just noticing.

Asking this throughout the day, noticing.

What I can say is that Knowledge is not in thought.

Right, thank you. That’s what came up after considering the beliefs surfaced by the “Who cares?” question. Thoughts ADD nothing, do nothing, create nothing. There’s no point obsessing over what thoughts “know”, what they can describe. Thoughts are not knowledge.

A positive aspect to have a guide is that I can tell you if you are walking on the wrong direction. So, you can walk eyes blinded with more confidence and trust. I also want to mention that I have another guide reading every post to be sure that we are on the right track. So, you have 2 layers of support here.

Thank you very much to both of you. Every doubt or belief that comes up and can be seen as just a thought makes it easier to trust myself on this process, and to trust your support and direction.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Your answer reflect clarity and show that your are seeing clearly what is the decieving nature of thoughts.

As this clarity dawn in you don’t forget to feel your sensations.
How does it feel in the body to have this «experiencial understanding»?
Notice how the sensation react to this clarity.

How is perception reacting to this ?
Look around, hear your surrounding, touch the world around you, smell and taste the air the water the food.

Let all your experience participate to this revelation :

Thoughts ADD nothing, do nothing, create nothing. There’s no point obsessing over what thoughts “know”, what they can describe. Thoughts are not knowledge.

How does it feel to experience THAT that is HERE and NOW without asking thought about it?

We will take a day of pause.
Be in that space for a day.
Do not write about it, don’t talk about it, don’t share with other, don’t think about it. Don’t read spiritual stuff.
Live your life, have fun, go to work, do what you are call to do. Be a “normal personne” at the same time feel and see this life around you without thought.

Let me khow how it went.

[SeanS]

How does it feel to experience THAT that is HERE and NOW without asking thought about it?

Live your life, have fun, go to work, do what you are call to do. Be a “normal personne” at the same time feel and see this life around you without thought.

Let me khow how it went.

Trying not to focus too much on memories, but the last two days have been hectic and dominated by thoughts or activity. Caught a cold, Family member got sent to the hospital, doubts and beliefs and avoidance arising more intensely, clarity that looked so simple and obvious the days before now often just looks like a memory of a thought.

It's all so sudden and intense that it seems suspicious given the timing... Difficult to put to words. Just more thoughts running rampant now I guess.

As this clarity dawn in you don’t forget to feel your sensations.
How does it feel in the body to have this «experiencial understanding»?
Notice how the sensation react to this clarity.

How is perception reacting to this ?
Look around, hear your surrounding, touch the world around you, smell and taste the air the water the food.

In the experience itself, most of the time was spent lost in thoughts still. Either during activity and with people, when it's still the normal habit, or while sick and out of sorts.

Spent some time resting outside with the senses, asking the two questions about what Knows periodically - and while thoughts still dominated a lot, it didn't seem quite as entrancing as before. The senses were a bit dull, but there were gaps of noticing between periods of thinking with a lot of peace and relaxation in the body, senses not as sharp but still simpler, enjoyable, less affected by the thoughts.

I noticed a lot of restlessness and avoidance later, stopped and spent some time with it in the body and noticing thoughts, but fell back to it soon after.

How does it feel to experience THAT that is HERE and NOW without asking thought about it?

Difficult to notice right now, and in general recently. The body is aching and dull and there isn't much energy.

I apologize. There's a lot of confusion as I write. One moment there's a strong doubt, then the thought passes and it's clearly just a thought, flat, doing nothing. Emotions are stable and calm one moment, there's this confidence that there is nothing that's in the way, and no way to lose what was seen through - but then there's bursts of sadness or disappointment that also pass quickly. It still looks so REAL in the midst of it, so gripping. Then it's gone and I almost laugh, just a thought.

There's one persistent, recurring belief/doubt. "This isn't it yet. Nothing is different. Just some thoughts and emotions, sickness, nothing important. Everything's the same. It isn't as big a deal as David implies."
Inside it is the belief that something is SUPPOSED to be different, "special" somehow, but that also passes. And then it's like I remember that thoughts don't actually KNOW. But I forget it just as easily..

I hope none of this is alarming - even when intense emotion arises there is no distress or suffering, no burden. More curiosity than anything. There's an okayness with all of this underneath it all. It'll pass.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

I hope you family member will get better soon.

Sometimes we have the wind on our back, and everything is seems great. Then, the wind change direction and we have the wind in front, and everything seems deem, confuse, and dark.
Now it seems that the wind has change direction for you.

My purpose here is to point to you the direction of noticing. From where you will see with clarity that the “separate self” is a mental construct. I am showing you the DIRECT PATH to that place inside you. Once this is cleared up, we can take care of drama, emotions, sensations, perceptions, and everything else if needed. BUT direct path does not mean straight line.

Imagine that you are on the sea in a sailing boat. You know were you want to go. But the wind is blowing headwind. What do you do when you know where you have to go but the environment is pushing you back and away of that direction?

You sail close hauled.

Check those link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XljcBVLFrZM

https://i.stack.imgur.com/nJJsH.jpg

https://hatterassailing.org/wp-content/ ... oad-64.jpg



So, now you are sailing up wind. The headwind of your memory, trauma, represses emotion, thoughts, suffering, pain is pushing you back. On the top of that there is the biological habit and psychosocial habit that will tend to draw you back into those state. This is the headwind of the separate self.

The first thing to avoid now is to go into the “no go” zone. That is to go straight into the emotion drama etc… Search the “close-hauled” position inside you. Where you can notice thoughts, feel emotions, take care of the biological need of the body, having a social life AND moving deeper inside you. You “use” the headwind to go forward.

We are circumventing the push back energy of separate self. Simply know that we are not negating anything. You will have to deal with those energy later but first you must find a solid ground.

Does that make sense to you?

Feedback:

clarity that looked so simple and obvious the days before now often just looks like a memory of a thought.

Yes, that is part of the process. Don’t worry about those shifts. There is no way “back to normal” for you.

Spent some time resting outside with the senses, asking the two questions about what Knows periodically - and while thoughts still dominated a lot, it didn't seem quite as entrancing as before. The senses were a bit dull, but there were gaps of noticing between periods of thinking with a lot of peace and relaxation in the body, senses not as sharp but still simpler, enjoyable, less affected by the thoughts.

Exactly, focus on the gaps! That is the close-hauled position. Perfect.
The memory is not made to remember those gaps. So, they will always vanish very fast and seems to be far away in time almost as never happen. But that is not a problem at all because we search the gap here and now.

Difficult to notice right now, and in general recently. The body is aching and dull and there isn't much energy.

Take care of the body in the best way is available for you.

I apologize. There's a lot of confusion as I write. One moment there's a strong doubt, then the thought passes and it's clearly just a thought, flat, doing nothing. Emotions are stable and calm one moment, there's this confidence that there is nothing that's in the way, and no way to lose what was seen through - but then there's bursts of sadness or disappointment that also pass quickly. It still looks so REAL in the midst of it, so gripping. Then it's gone and I almost laugh, just a thought.

There is confusion but you are not confused at all. You are noticing what is happening.
Keep on that track.

There's one persistent, recurring belief/doubt. "This isn't it yet. Nothing is different. Just some thoughts and emotions, sickness, nothing important. Everything's the same. It isn't as big a deal as David implies."
Inside it is the belief that something is SUPPOSED to be different, "special" somehow, but that also passes. And then it's like I remember that thoughts don't actually KNOW. But I forget it just as easily..

This is the headwind of the separate self.
Sickness is important for the body so take care of it as best you can.

I hope none of this is alarming - even when intense emotion arises there is no distress or suffering, no burden. More curiosity than anything. There's an okayness with all of this underneath it all. It'll pass.

The more your awareness expand the more you will be aware of the repress emotion, tension, etc…
At the beginning, the clearer it gets, the darker it seems to become.

You feel curiosity and okayness so everything is fine.
YES, focus on that layer underneath all. THIS IS IT

[SeanS]

We are circumventing the push back energy of separate self. Simply know that we are not negating anything. You will have to deal with those energy later but first you must find a solid ground.

Does that make sense to you?

It does, thank you. I suspected that there's nothing that needs to be "resolved", nothing strictly "in the way" with everything that's coming up (Can just ask Who is aware of what's "seemingly in the way"?), but that analogy works perfectly. Nothing in the way of sailing, but sailing one way leads to resistance, while a slight adjustment allows that resistance to be "used" to an extent.


Today the body is still weak but the mind is calmer. Spending longer in that noticing gap. In the morning while resting and noticing, there were moments where it felt like even while temporarily lost in thoughts there was an awareness of the body that was growing, almost like the body-sense was slowly becoming "fuller". And when a sudden sound pulled attention out of thoughts, it was like a ripple of pleasant sensation coursing through the whole body.

In midday, sat outside again with the senses. The sight, sound, and body sense all felt calmer, simpler, no hecticness or instability. At times the thoughts felt very secondary, like momentary appearances that were gone immediately. Though at other times still got lost in them.

Right now, the noticing space / gap feels easier to slip into. Often don't need the questions or preparations, just noticing, and it doesn't fade as easily. Trying to write with it, but that's still a bit odd, shaky.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

Let’s dive here with an exploration:

(Can just ask Who is aware of what's "seemingly in the way"?)

Exploration:

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where Sean is located.
Touch the exact location of Sean.

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel Sean in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Sean (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

Feedback:

Today the body is still weak but the mind is calmer. Spending longer in that noticing gap. In the morning while resting and noticing, there were moments where it felt like even while temporarily lost in thoughts there was an awareness of the body that was growing, almost like the body-sense was slowly becoming "fuller". And when a sudden sound pulled attention out of thoughts, it was like a ripple of pleasant sensation coursing through the whole body.

Beautifull, keep feeling this fullness.
It seems as if there is a gap between things. But “everything” is in the gap.

In midday, sat outside again with the senses. The sight, sound, and body sense all felt calmer, simpler, no hecticness or instability. At times the thoughts felt very secondary, like momentary appearances that were gone immediately. Though at other times still got lost in them.

Nice.
When you notice that you are lost in thought, you are not lost in them anymore.

Right now, the noticing space / gap feels easier to slip into. Often don't need the questions or preparations, just noticing, and it doesn't fade as easily. Trying to write with it, but that's still a bit odd, shaky.

“Easier” is a key world. Keep following this easiness like a hunting dog. Whenever you feel it, keep it as close as possible.

[SeanS]

Were you able to find and feel Sean in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

At first there was confusion and hesitation, nowhere to put the finger, just hanging there, but that was more driven by belief and thought than experience.

Where is it?

In direct experience, there were two main locations that felt "more right than the rest". First was the base of the throat, then the eyes/forehead. Neither are "me", and neither are well-defined, but there was less resistance to those than pointing at the feet or stomach for example.

The locations that felt more "me" or more important also felt like they weren't strictly in one place, like at times more in the eyes, eyebrows, forehead - and at times at base of throat / collarbone, or middle of the throat, or mouth.

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

Sensations.
Particularly though, sensations that seemed physically tied to thought, words or perception somehow. An ingrained belief? Unsure.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified Sean (If any).

In the forehead and eyes there was a kind of squeeze, like concentration.
I noticed that often when I ask questions like "What is that which knows" there's FAR more emphasis with attention on that area too, especially with eyes open, but also in general.

A lot of sensations that I believed are related to attention, to noticing, to perception, feel tied to that location. The visual field too. At times, thoughts also feel physically connected to the forehead, like tiny pulses with each verbal thought, or a kind of energetic heat there when there's a lot of thinking.

And all of those have that subtle sense of "MY" attention, "MY" noticing, "MY" perception, "MY" thoughts.

That doesn't entirely make sense to me as I write it but the belief still stands...

In the throat area, there's sensations that feel tied to words and thoughts, internal narration. Vibrations, contraction, movement from bottom to top as if thoughts are turning into speech, but stopped at the mouth.
There was also that hollow feeling at the base of the throat that feels like a kind of grasping, holding something still there.

Trying the exercise a second time after writing all of this.
The eyebrow center was SHOCKINGLY prominent, even when noticing other sensations like the hands it felt like ‘I’ was “in there”, noticing those “lower” sensations from “above”.
It was surprising how NORMAL that felt, like that’s just usual, that’s how it ALMOST always is. Like it wasn’t odd or worthy of questioning…

When touching the face, it also felt as though ‘I’ was deeper inside, more to the center, with the face on the outside.

It *feels* (Unsure if that’s the right word, as I can’t quite describe how or why it feels that way. Just another belief?) as if that area is the “center of my experience”.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

The way you can travel and feel your body with ease and clarity will allow you to grow in sensitivity naturally. This exploration was rich in information.

With your response, I feel the impulse to clarify the purpose of the guiding in LU. The first step in LU, is to investigate the belief in the separate self and, if necessary, the effect of this belief. Once this is clearly seen, you “crossed the gateless gate”.
The exploration I gave you was an opportunity to investigate the reality of the separate self, the individual “Sean”. But you went way beyond that and started to investigate the reality of “me” in your sensation. Which is great and a very, very good sign. But now I wonder if I have taken this path too slowly.
Maybe all we need to do now is to understand the difference between the separate self and what you are.

Exploration:
What comes up when reading that there is no "separate self," never has been & never will be? It is all a made up story.

Feedback:
Your exploration is fantastic there is so much insight.
This feedback is specifically oriented to show you difference between Sean and You.

Were you able to find and feel Sean in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

At first there was confusion and hesitation, nowhere to put the finger, just hanging there, but that was more driven by belief and thought than experience.

This is you finding out, experientially, the impossibility to find Sean in your direct experience.

Why do you say it was driven by belief and thought?

Where is it?

In direct experience, there were two main locations that felt "more right than the rest". First was the base of the throat, then the eyes/forehead. Neither are "me", and neither are well-defined, but there was less resistance to those than pointing at the feet or stomach for example.

The locations that felt more "me" or more important also felt like they weren't strictly in one place, like at times more in the eyes, eyebrows, forehead - and at times at base of throat / collarbone, or middle of the throat, or mouth.

Here you are exploring the sense of me in the body. And as you found out there is no exact place. The best you can get is only: "more right than the rest". Which is another way to say: “I don’t know”. Not only that but is it keep moving!

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

Sensations.
Particularly though, sensations that seemed physically tied to thought, words or perception somehow. An ingrained belief? Unsure.

The biggest part of the sense of me is in the sensation. That is why exploring sensations is important.
Now the question I want to ask is:
Is Sean a sensation?
Is Sean a thought?
Is Sean a perception?

And all of those have that subtle sense of "MY" attention, "MY" noticing, "MY" perception, "MY" thoughts.

Yes the problem is not attention, noticing, perception nor thoughts. The “problem” is, as you said, the MY.
All of those belong to Sean?
Where is this Sean?
I mean where EXACTLY is Sean?

The eyebrow center was SHOCKINGLY prominent, even when noticing other sensations like the hands it felt like ‘I’ was “in there”, noticing those “lower” sensations from “above”.
It was surprising how NORMAL that felt, like that’s just usual, that’s how it ALMOST always is. Like it wasn’t odd or worthy of questioning…

When touching the face, it also felt as though ‘I’ was deeper inside, more to the center, with the face on the outside.

Here you are exploration the sense of me in sensation.

The “location” of the sense of me is different for everyone. And it can move. Great you start to question this normal way of experience. Keep exploring.
One way to do it is to try to find where sensation touch, playing with distance, exploring borders and limits. Example: Where is the sensation of my hand begins and my arm end? If I am above my body what is above me? If I am inside the head where EXACTLY in the head? Where is the back of my head ends and my face begins? How far is the sensation of my feet from my experience? How far is my experience from me?
(don’t answer is just examples)

It *feels* (Unsure if that’s the right word, as I can’t quite describe how or why it feels that way. Just another belief?) as if that area is the “center of my experience”.

Here you are searching the sens of me in sensation.

There is always an impression to be at the center of experience. But at the same time this center is never find in direct experience and is always moving around in sensation.

You said that you felt your face was the center of your experience but what do you exactly mean by “face”? Try to find EXACTLY the border of that face. Try to see clearly how fare is that face from you. Etc…..

If you feel/believe that you are behind the face you will feel/believe that your food is fare away. But if you drive a nail into your foot, I can guarantee you that you will feel like your foot is very near and the sensation of face will vanish instantly.

Sense of me is felt mostly behind the face because it SEEMS to be the source of perception and thought (because of the supposedly existing brain). But that is simply habits and beliefs.

When you dream you always feel to be at the center of the dream. But you are never actually in the dream. The dream is in you.

Just as you are not in experience. Experience is in you, and you feel to be at the center of it. Center that can never be found.

Please if anything I wrote about your experience is inaccurate, wrong or you simply disagree, please tell me so!

[SeanS]

What comes up when reading that there is no "separate self," never has been & never will be? It is all a made up story.

At first there was a lot of excitement in the body, heart pounding a bit harder and breathing quickening a bit, a pleasant but overenergetic flow in the body sensation, a lot of scattered thoughts coming and going too - but that actually started from reading the first clarification and paragraphs!

Tried sitting with the body sense and breath for a while before reading it again.

The body is calm, there’s stronger sensations all around the head again, and mainly the forehead.

Thoughts… Somewhere between “Of course” to “It makes sense, it would explain so much, it HAS to be true”. And that leads to the doubt / conflicting beliefs - Do I actually understand what that means in experience? Or do I just believe it as an alternative story now?

There’s still an obsession with thought, with ideas like “me” and “my story” and “what I’ll say” and “I’m doing this or that”, even though there’s also disillusionment and disbelief in them when they're seen as such. That dissonance came up a few times. And the doubts, uncertainty about direction, about whether “something is missing” or if all that’s needed right now is to just sit with the senses and notice thoughts more and more. There’s still this recurring belief that I’m fooling myself somehow. One way or another.

Why do you say it was driven by belief and thought?

Because, like the last answer, what came up at first is “How? It makes no sense. Of course I can’t point at myself. I’m not hiding somewhere in the body” (Which maybe contradicts the sensation that felt that way)
And ”Who does the pointing?”
The body is just a body, maybe still feels like “mine” but how could any part of it be “me”? The brain is just a brain, even if for some reason I wanted to point to the mind, any conclusion about where it “is” would be a thought. And the mind is not the pointer, either.
The attention… it’s “in” places maybe, moving or arising, but is there an origin? Maybe that’s what caught me up with the forehead sensations, that it SEEMED like an origin even if that makes no sense. But all of this “sense or no sense” is just more beliefs and thoughts.

Right now the closest I can get to accepting some “Separate self”, if that’s what it is, is “My attention / awareness / noticing” - But even that doesn’t have much solidity.

Maybe all of this is overthinking it.

Is Sean a sensation?

No. Sensation passes. Who notices the sensation?

Is Sean a thought?

No. Who notices the thought? What exists without thought?

Is Sean a perception?

I’m not sure what “a perception” means in this context, but leaning towards no. Who has the perception? The way I perceive things changes too, but there’s the same supposed “I”.

Yes the problem is not attention, noticing, perception nor thoughts. The “problem” is, as you said, the MY.
All of those belong to Sean?

I don’t really know. It’s just a thought or belief. There’s attention, and noticing, and perception and thoughts, there’s… memory, a sense of continuity. Ah, there IS a belief for some kind of separation tied up in that, from other people. I am not them. Different perspectives?

I hear a sound, there’s no “my”. Just hearing and sound. But I used the word “I”…
I think, or I move, or I notice, and it’s “me” until it isn’t, until it’s seen as just thought, just movement, just noticing. But that seeing is its own noticing.

Where is this Sean?

There’s agitation in the body, shakiness, confusion. Searching, but there’s nowhere to look, nowhere to find. Who is the one that searches?
I HAVE to be “here” but what is here? how could it be in some specific location? What looks at that location? And now even that conviction that “I HAVE to” be here seems wrong. There’s SOMETHING here… there’s senses and thoughts, and attention or awareness moving or arising. The “I” or “My” always seems tacked on somehow.

I mean where EXACTLY is Sean?

Tried running with that energy and restlessness in the last one, seeing what comes up with that, now just calming down.

Wrote so many beliefs and thoughts... But there is no “I” in direct experience, none that I can find, just experience. But I still use that word, and still there’s a belief it’s my experience.
There’s labeling too, things being “more” or “less” me or mine. And a shifting “me”ness to things. The only constant is awareness.

Please if anything I wrote about your experience is inaccurate, wrong or you simply disagree, please tell me so!

Nothing to disagree about what you wrote. It all rings true.

What you wrote about the center of experience and the ways to explore it is interesting. Will try those explorations too.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,

It seems to me that you have seen that there is no separate self. But you are struggling with doubts.
As long as you doubt and still making concession about the existence of this entity or not you will bring the limitation and beliefs of this separate self into you noticing and exploration of experience.
Which will lead to confusion and even more doubts.
So let’s be clear and sharp here:

This is a no or yes question: Can you find a separate self in your experience?
This is a no or yes question: Is there a separate self?

Without referring of past experiences nor thoughts, tell me everything you know about Sean?
Without using past nor future sentence can you describe Sean in detail?

Feedback:

Thoughts… Somewhere between “Of course” to “It makes sense, it would explain so much, it HAS to be true”. And that leads to the doubt / conflicting beliefs - Do I actually understand what that means in experience? Or do I just believe it as an alternative story now?

There is one or there is not a separate self?
Look and see what you find.

Because, like the last answer, what came up at first is “How? It makes no sense. Of course I can’t point at myself. I’m not hiding somewhere in the body” (Which maybe contradicts the sensation that felt that way)

Here you are asking thought about whenever is true or not. Or if make sense or not.
But thought as nothing to tell you about what is happening or not.
Look right here and right now. Can you find one separate self?

Right now the closest I can get to accepting some “Separate self”, if that’s what it is, is “My attention / awareness / noticing” - But even that doesn’t have much solidity.

I am not asking you to accept anything!
I am asking you to look in your direct experience and tell me if you find a separate self in it.

I am not asking to explain how.
I am not asking you to describe what you are.

I am only there a self in your experience?

Wrote so many beliefs and thoughts... But there is no “I” in direct experience, none that I can find, just experience. But I still use that word, and still there’s a belief it’s my experience.
There’s labeling too, things being “more” or “less” me or mine. And a shifting “me”ness to things. The only constant is awareness.

You can use the world “I” and is still your experience who else is there in your own experience?
The question is not if it is your experience or not. The question is can you find this the separate self in your experience.
If you can not find this separate self. The questions change completely of orientation. And will can investigate what is here. We can investigate experience. But we CAN NOT do that from a separate self-perspective, that is all.

You will never see what color is the snow with your sunglass on. It doesn't matter how much you try because the error is in the point from where you see not WHAT you see.

[SeanS]

This is a no or yes question: Can you find a separate self in your experience?

No, I can’t find it.

This is a no or yes question: Is there a separate self?

I want to say no, but I just can’t say it honestly. I can’t honestly say yes either.
It’s not as obvious as the explorations about thought somehow… Like there’s no trust in direct experience on this yet, like I’m still looking for some kind of certainty.
Maybe that’s also just doubts and thoughts.

Without referring of past experiences nor thoughts, tell me everything you know about Sean?

Nothing at all.

Without using past nor future sentence can you describe Sean in detail?

No, I can’t.

There is one or there is not a separate self?
Look and see what you find.

Look right here and right now. Can you find one separate self?

No. Spent hours with this today, can’t find it.

A lot comes up in the body and mind, tension and contraction and relaxation, doubts and confusion and strong momentary emotions and the mind trying to grasp this somehow, but no “self”, no “Sean” outside of thought.

I look now, and I can’t find it. Just senses and thoughts.

I am asking you to look in your direct experience and tell me if you find a separate self in it.

I am not asking to explain how.
I am not asking you to describe what you are.

I am only there a self in your experience?

In my DIRECT EXPERIENCE there is no self. Only in beliefs and thoughts.

Why isn't it certain then? Just more doubt? I don’t get it.

[Windaway]

Hello Sean,
That great thank you for your honesty. That is very important to be honest first to yourself and then in your answer. This gives us precious information about where to investigate.

Feedback:

This is a no or yes question: Is there a separate self?

I want to say no, but I just can’t say it honestly. I can’t honestly say yes either.
It’s not as obvious as the explorations about thought somehow… Like there’s no trust in direct experience on this yet, like I’m still looking for some kind of certainty.
Maybe that’s also just doubts and thoughts.

I perfectly understand your answer. In a way it shows your maturity and clarity. Because this is NOT really “no or yes question”. It was more pedagogic to see your answer. As I said before this is a inclusive path so the question is Yes AND no.
I think that you are not clear about the “levels” of conceptualizations:
We can define reality as that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it.
If we take 4 concepts:

• Color
  Tree
  Politics
  Santa Claus

The first is pointing to a phenomenon in your direct experience.

The second points to an existing object.

The third points to a label that is used for communication but cannot be found as a thing.

The fourth is the famous Santa Claus—an imaginary character, a word/concept that points to something that isn’t real.
Same as Batman or unicorn. It’s pure imagination.

Is this clear to you?

In my DIRECT EXPERIENCE there is no self. Only in beliefs and thoughts.

Why isn't it certain then? Just more doubt? I don’t get it.

Perfect!!! Thank for your honesty.
Yes is doubt. But that is a normal reaction of your system to this discovery. The body/mind have to get used to this new way of experiencing. Until then it can feel a little bit like strange and confusing.
That which want to “get it” is mind/thought. Thought will never get it. So don’t worry much about that part.

You can read a lot in LU and other places that:” There is no self”. It is true but at the same time is a little simplistic and can be confusing when stated like that.
If we clarify the word “exist” it can dispel a lot of confusion. Because now days the world exist and real are used interchangeably. Which in in everyday language is not a big deal but about what we are talking here is a very BIG deal.

Check the etymology of the word exist:

The word "exist" has its roots in Latin. It comes from the Latin word "existere," which is a combination of "ex," meaning "out," and "sistere," meaning "to stand." Thus, "existere" originally meant "to come forth," "to appear," or "to emerge."
So, off course things exist but that mean they “appear out there” to you. Like an illusion exist BUT is not real. Or a mirage.

The separate self come forth in your experience BUT cannot be found in reality because it IS not real.
The separate self exist (in the sense that it emerge in your experience) BUT is not real.

The mirage does not have to disappear for you to KNOW that it is not real.
Just as if you see a dragon in a movie you don’t have to make the dragon disappear to KNOW it is not real. And that also doesn’t prevent you to enjoy the movie.
If someone comes to you and starts talking about dragons, you don’t have to argue with them about the reality of dragons. You simply know that dragons are not real. You can even enjoy having a conversation about dragons. It becomes a problem when you start to believe that dragons are real.
So, Color, Tree, Politics, Santa Claus they all exist in different dimension of conceptualization (thoughts) but none of them are Real.

I hope that helps.
If it’s to “theorical” or “intellectual” let me know.

Exploration:
To support this try this:
There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?