The Gate

I've been looking but haven't found much. I don't feel like I'm seeing much of no "I". I did notice that I think I'm reacting to things, like doing things after the fact. I'm not in the moment with what's happening, but rather am reacting after the fact. This morning I reset the alarm clock before I really even thought about it.

Me talking off the top of my head, which helps me see things:

I think I put a label on things, like at the pool this morning when the water was cold and my hip hurt. It's more like the water has a temperature and I decide that it's cold, or I decide that I have pain. I have to keep looking for the "I". Just off the top of my head, I think I want something really bad, like I want there to be an end to the cold/pain, etc., but there won't be an end because there's no beginning (no "I" who's giving things these designations of cold/pain, etc.). I also think wanting makes it really difficult to let go. What if the water just has a temperature, and my hip just has muscle spasms or whatever. Is there anyone deciding that the water has a feeling of cold, or that my hip has a feeling of pain?

If there is no "I" then how does one person decide/become a teacher and another person decides/becomes a dentist? If there is no one driving the train in those directions, then how does it go in those directions, or choose those directions (assuming those are directions it loves and wants to go in, how does it go there).

The train is going automatically, and if you stop trying to be the driver it would go on its' own, but where? You'd have to stop being the driver and see where it goes. Although, there is no driver to stop being the driver. I have to keep looking so I can finally see that there is no driver.

I think maybe my body is the driver of all things (even going to the grocery store), and I know that I want what I want all of the time, and I think that I should have it all of the time (as does everyone else on this planet, which causes lots of problems!). I think I live from a place of craving, craving/wanting comfort for myself, craving/wanting to be right all the time, believing I should have everything I want/I should be right, etc. all of the time.

I'm off to keep looking for the driver of the train.

Thanks for sticking with me when I don't feel like I'm see much of anything, or getting anywhere in my looking!

Take a deep breath, step back, and relax.

You are over thinking things. You are never, repeat never, going to get anywhere by getting caught up in thought loops like

If there is no "I" then how does one person decide/become a teacher and another person decides/becomes a dentist? If there is no one driving the train in those directions, then how does it go in those directions, or choose those directions (assuming those are directions it loves and wants to go in, how does it go there).

If, x then y, but z, so p . Round and round. Unanswerable questions. You are trying to use logic to solve the problem. But first you need to confirm that the premises are true.

Instead of saying "If there is no I, then how..." , you should be asking "Is there an I"?

When you said

On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

This is a good insight. Get back to this point. You noticed that thoughts were there, fully formed.

I asked

Another thing to look at, now you see that the thought has already happened , and they rise up fully formed, see if it is a you looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

So look more into this.

Remember, the narrator in your head, the voice that is doing the "If x, then y" the words and sentences that you hear in your mind, these are also thoughts. It seems very personal, its in your voice, so look at these thoughts. Are you doing them? Or are they also rising fully formed, on their own? Are they different from other thoughts? If so, in what way? Are they "you"?

Thanks!

I keep trying to look for an "I" and will keep looking. What I see is thoughts, just thoughts in and of themselves.

Are you doing them? Or are they also rising fully formed, on their own? Are they different from other thoughts? If so, in what way? Are they "you"?

So everything is a thought, and even the thoughts about the thoughts are thoughts, and even when I sit down to do nothing but think things through and come up with things like the dentist and the teacher question, those are all thoughts, and what I need to do is see if there is an "I" creating those thoughts or if they are just coming up on their own.

Is there an "I" in anything?--me thinking out loud.

Another thing to look at, now you see that the thought has already happened , and they rise up fully formed, see if it is a you looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

Reading this there's no me looking at them only a me looking at me looking at them--this makes no sense to me, but it's what came into my mind. Maybe a "me" thinking that I'm looking at them when I'm really not.

I don't think there's anybody anywhere. Every time I stop to look at thoughts, they're just there with no "person" with them, just the thoughts. I don't think "I" can control anything. Okay, I was reading another post and the person asked something like: "Can you not think of a purple dog?". I can't. I'm going to keep looking to see if there is an "I" controlling anything as I still think there is an "I".

...look at these thoughts. Are you doing them? Or are they also rising fully formed, on their own? Are they different from other thoughts? If so, in what way? Are they "you"?

I think the thoughts are free floating, and "I" try to pick them up. I have to look at this more and more. There's no "me" in the thoughts (There's probably no "me" anywhere, and I have to look more to find out. I think I created a "me".).

So everything is a thought, and even the thoughts about the thoughts are thoughts, and even when I sit down to do nothing but think things through and come up with things like the dentist and the teacher question, those are all thoughts,

dont take my word for it, or anyones word for it. Is this true? Are they all thoughts?

and what I need to do is see if there is an "I" creating those thoughts or if they are just coming up on their own.

Yes, exactly. Are you doing them, creating them? Choosing them?

I think I created a "me"

Who created a me? How many me

sorry, misposted, it should have read

Who created a me? How many me's are there? the one that created a me, and the one that was created?

Thoughts are just thoughts about thoughts when I sit down with the intention to look at things. Everything is a thought. All my brain can put out are thoughts (except for the instructions to my body to move and things like that, but there's no me connected to those instructions--oh, is there a me connected to the thoughts that aren't instructions to my body?--me talking out loud again).

Is this true? Are they all thoughts?

Yes, they're all thoughts, although I think there's a person creating them, but there isn't. I need to keep looking for this person that I think is there. They aren't. I don't think I'll find them.

Yes, exactly. Are you doing them, creating them? Choosing them?

The thoughts are just coming, like when I'm having a conversation with someone, and the thoughts come into my mind about what I want to say next, they just come, there's no "I" creating them or choosing them.

I keep looking at what I'm doing (I just picked up the water bottle and took a drink.), and every time I look, the thing/doing it has always happened on it's own before I'm even aware that I did it. Dang, I just did it again!--took another drink of water.

Who created a me? How many me's are there? the one that created a me, and the one that was created?

I think I created a "me" because I grasped onto things (like ideas) to create a me, but if I created a me, then there would be two of us. How did "I" get here in the first place (the chicken or the egg question that has no answer) which gets to no beginning and thus, no end, and thus nothing, no "I". Then who created a me, goes around in circles of I created a me, but then who created the I that created a me and on and on. What if there was no me to be created? I'm going to look at that, as well as looking for the "me" and "I" that I think is still there (even though I think I'm going to find out it's not).

Thanks.

Yes, they're all thoughts, although I think there's a person creating them, but there isn't. I need to keep looking for this person that I think is there. They aren't. I don't think I'll find them.

Is this also just another thought?

The thoughts are just coming, like when I'm having a conversation with someone, and the thoughts come into my mind about what I want to say next, they just come, there's no "I" creating them or choosing them.

I keep looking at what I'm doing (I just picked up the water bottle and took a drink.), and every time I look, the thing/doing it has always happened on it's own before I'm even aware that I did it. Dang, I just did it again!--took another drink of water.

Yes, this is good. Notice how much goes on without "you" being aware of it. Notice the difference between the stuff that goes on without you being aware of it, and the stuff that appears to happen when you are aware of it.
When you are not aware of it - stuff happens automatically
When you are aware of it - stuff happens automatically, plus thoughts about the stuff that just happened.

Notice how thoughts come up claiming "I just did that" or "I decided to do that".

I think I created a "me" because I grasped onto things (like ideas) to create a me, but if I created a me, then there would be two of us. How did "I" get here in the first place (the chicken or the egg question that has no answer) which gets to no beginning and thus, no end, and thus nothing, no "I". Then who created a me, goes around in circles of I created a me, but then who created the I that created a me and on and on. What if there was no me to be created? I'm going to look at that, as well as looking for the "me" and "I" that I think is still there (even though I think I'm going to find out it's not).

I still think in cases like the above paragraph, you are over thinking things. Asking un-answerable questions.
Remember, these are all thoughts too. And looking at the content of these thoughts is not going to help. Looking at how the thoughts arise, and if you are doing them, that is going to help.

You can not find out if no self is true by thinking about it. You can find out if no self is true by looking.

Our power went out last night and is back on now. We're supposed to get another thunderstorm this evening, so if you don't hear from me, that's why.

I've been trying to look at thoughts and feelings. Had a problem this morning where I was trying to help someone, and it backfired. I felt horrible, and tried to just look at all of the feelings that were coming up to see where they were coming from, is there a "me" behind the feelings. Looking wasn't getting me anywhere as far as being able to see anything (maybe because I was too tied up in the feelings). I'm going to keep looking, and will write more later.

Thanks.

One thing you said a couple of days ago

On of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.

This is an insight. This is evidence of no self. You believed that you were doing the thoughts, and now you have found that the thoughts come up on their own, and have already happened by the time "you" see them.

Do the same with emotions. Are you doing them, or are they just there, ready formed, in the past tense, by the time you see them? Is there a you that is angry, upset, feeling horrible, or are those feelings just there with or without your permission?

Do the same with emotions. Are you doing them, or are they just there, ready formed, in the past tense, by the time you see them? Is there a you that is angry, upset, feeling horrible, or are those feelings just there with or without your permission?

I've tried to do that with emotions today, but they still feel awful (the ones from earlier today). Me talking out loud to myself: Maybe I'm trying to make them go away (they won't. They never will. They come on their own and leave on their own.). Maybe I'm trying to control them, and I can't. I'll keep looking for an "I" behind them.

GotIt said: One of the things I'm finding when I'm looking is that when I try to look at thoughts, it's all past tense. If I decide I'm going to look at thoughts or a thought, it always a thought that has already happened. I can't look at the thoughts as they happen. There's no me looking at them as they happen, but rather a me looking at them after they have already arisen on their own.


Neeel said: This is an insight. This is evidence of no self. You believed that you were doing the thoughts, and now you have found that the thoughts come up on their own, and have already happened by the time "you" see them.

It doesn't feel any different. It feels like I still think there's an "I" with the thoughts. I can't be in the flow of the thoughts when they are happening, and I can't observe the thoughts as they come up, but there still feels like there's a strong something connected to or with the thoughts.

I'll keep looking for an "I" that is connected with thoughts and emotions (I hope I don't find them soon. Okay, me talking to myself out loud again: Wanting something won't make it happen, and wanting it isn't going to make it happen any sooner, etc. Let go of the wanting anything to be different and just look at what is right now with your thoughts and emotions and look to see if there is a "you/I" with them/in them/a part of them, etc.

It doesn't feel any different. It feels like I still think there's an "I" with the thoughts. I can't be in the flow of the thoughts when they are happening, and I can't observe the thoughts as they come up, but there still feels like there's a strong something connected to or with the thoughts.

Look at this something that is connected to or with the thoughts. What is it? Is there a something there? Is there a feeling there? Is there a thought there? Is there something there claiming ownership? Is it a thought? Or an entity of some kind?

Do the same with emotions. Are you doing them, or are they just there, ready formed, in the past tense, by the time you see them? Is there a you that is angry, upset, feeling horrible, or are those feelings just there with or without your permission?

I did that with the awful feelings I was feeling yesterday. It was a little bit more distant as in they was some distance between me and them so they weren't as strong. I'm still looking for the "me" in all of this.

Look at this something that is connected to or with the thoughts. What is it? Is there a something there? Is there a feeling there? Is there a thought there? Is there something there claiming ownership? Is it a thought? Or an entity of some kind?

I keep looking for a me in a thought and in thoughts. I think thoughts just come and go on their own. I have to keep looking to see if there is a "me" connected to them. What is the glue that I think is there? Oh, wait, is there a glue (that keeps me thinking there is a connection to a "me" and thoughts)? I'm trying to spend quiet, undistracted time looking at thoughts, feelings, emotions, etc. to see what they are and is there a "who/I/me" attached to them.

they was some distance between me and them

Oops, should have said "there was some distance between me and them".

I get the impression, and correct me if I am wrong, that you are sitting down, and asking yourself the question

"Is there an "I" that is thinking the thoughts".

And then you wait for a thought to pop up with the answer. Does this seem a fair representation of how things are at the moment?

I get the impression, and correct me if I am wrong, that you are sitting down, and asking yourself the question

"Is there an "I" that is thinking the thoughts".

And then you wait for a thought to pop up with the answer. Does this seem a fair representation of how things are at the moment?

Sometimes I do that only because I can see what's going on better than when I look while I'm watching tv or driving the car or shopping or something. Other times I try to pay attention while I'm doing things.

You have to look all of the time, not just by sitting down and focusing on it, but sometimes sitting in quiet helps me see thoughts as they come up, etc. and get a better idea of what's going on. I basically look at what comes up (thoughts, feelings, etc., e.g. the feeling of air landing on my skin from the fan, and what it feels like as the air lands on my skin. In all of it, I look to see if there is any "one/I/me/mine/an entity" associated with what is happening. I also think that thoughts come and then a reaction comes, e.g. a thought comes and then a feeling comes, and I'm looking to see if this is correct (e.g. the feelings don't come up automatically like I think they do. I also think there is no "one/I/entity, etc." creating the feelings). I think there's just a continuous happening of thoughts coming and going all the time (I don't know about when I'm sleeping, but the rest of the time.), like a train coming out of a tunnel one car at a time, and then each car going back into another tunnel and this goes on forever in a continuous loop. Like a kid in a toy store watching the store train display go around and around without picking up the train cars as they go by. I'm slowly see that that's what happens with thoughts, and am looking to see it more. If "I" don't pick up the cars and just let them go by, there off in the distance somewhere just going through. There's no "me" to pick up the cars/thoughts (I definitely don't create the thoughts.).

Maybe what you're saying is that if I watch the thoughts, then I'm working from a belief that there is a "being" watching the thoughts, which I don't think there is--I have to look at this. I don't think there a "be"ing anywhere there's just what is happening--I have to look into this to see the truth.