What is This?

[Bluejay]

Attention gets entangled in unconscious thoughts more easily. When a conscious thought comes, there is another thought that is saying: ‘I am thinking.’ When unconscious thoughts come, there is a thought afterwards that says: ‘I was thinking.’

Nice observations!

There is a thought beforehand saying: ‘I am going to think of…’ and then I do.

Yes, but did you predict the thought saying 'I am going to think of ...'?

That's the thought you need to predict.

[avva]

No, I didn't.

[Bluejay]

Is there any thought you can predict (conscious or unconscious)?

If yes, then are you in control of thoughts, or are they just happening?

[avva]

Is there any thought you can predict (conscious or unconscious)?

No.

If yes, then are you in control of thoughts, or are they just happening?

All thoughts are just happening.

[Bluejay]

And what about the thought "I"?

And thoughts like "I got lost in thought" or "I'm not getting this"?

I know your answer to these, so I'm asking these questions mostly to get you to look at these thoughts and see that there's no one thinking them, nor do they refer to an "I" since it's all happening.

Does that make sense? :)

Now, seeing that thoughts are just happening, how does that feel?

[avva]

And what about the thought "I"?

That is just happening too.

And thoughts like "I got lost in thought" or "I'm not getting this"?

I identify with attention, and then the thought comes ‘I got lost in thoughts’. How not to identify with attention?

Now, seeing that thoughts are just happening, how does that feel?

What happens now is this:
A train of thoughts comes – attention follows the thoughts without the thought ‘I am thinking’ – afterwards comes the usual thought ‘I was thinking’ or ‘I got lost in thought’ – and now there is an extra thought added ‘No, I wasn’t thinking. Thoughts just happened. There is no ‘I’.’
How to get out of this loop?

[Bluejay]

What happens now is this:
A train of thoughts comes – attention follows the thoughts without the thought ‘I am thinking’ – afterwards comes the usual thought ‘I was thinking’ or ‘I got lost in thought’ – and now there is an extra thought added ‘No, I wasn’t thinking. Thoughts just happened. There is no ‘I’.’
How to get out of this loop?

The loop will dismantle itself in time. There is now an introduction of a new thought (look, is there a thinker? etc), and this will sometimes pop up, and sometimes not. In time, if focus remains on inquiry, it will be seen more and more that most thoughts are not needed.

And the thoughts aren't really the problem, but the idea that they shouldn't be like that. Do you see what I mean?

There's a judgment thought that says how things should be, which is in resistance with how things are.

I identify with attention, and then the thought comes ‘I got lost in thoughts’. How not to identify with attention?

That leads us to the next pointer.

What is it that identifies with attention?

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[avva]

And the thoughts aren't really the problem, but the idea that they shouldn't be like that. Do you see what I mean?

There's a judgment thought that says how things should be, which is in resistance with how things are.

Could you please explain this?

[Bluejay]

So you asked how you get out of the loop, which means that you think there's something wrong.

There's a judgment/comparison or expectation that the thought loop is an obstacle when it is simply what is happening. Nothing wrong with it.

The suffering comes from wanting/needing it to be different.

Ask more questions if this is unclear!

[avva]

Right. That's clear. Thank you.

[Bluejay]

Great!

Looking forward to your 'sense of self' questions :)

[avva]

Hi Henri

What is it that identifies with attention?

Awareness follows attention. There is a sense of ‘I’ sometimes, but not always.

Does the sense of self have a location?

Yes: in the head. There is a sensation of a point of view/perspective/an angle from which things are seen. There is also a sense of distance from the sense organs.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

No. There are thoughts that just appear in awareness. The body communicates sensations.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

No.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

There is awareness. There are sensations (aliveness in the body and a point of view/perspective/angle/distance from). The word ‘I’ appears only in thoughts.

[Bluejay]

Hello!

There is awareness. There are sensations (aliveness in the body and a point of view/perspective/angle/distance from). The word ‘I’ appears only in thoughts.

Are there two things? (awareness and senses)

If so, can you find the border between the two?

Can you find awareness without the senses (images, sounds, sensations, etc)?

What is awareness in direct experience?

[avva]

Awareness is sensation and perception. It is the same as direct experience.
The sense of self also includes a sense of agency.

[Bluejay]

Alright. In the future, can you answer each question separately, even if they seem the same. Even if you are familiar with the answer, looking again can only deepen.

So let's take a look at the sense of self:

Yes: in the head. There is a sensation of a point of view/perspective/an angle from which things are seen. There is also a sense of distance from the sense organs.

There is an assumption here that a point of view/perspective means there is a self. But even after the separate self is seen through, there will be a perspective.

Now...

When there is a sense of self, separate it into the senses that are involved, and inquire into each sense.

For example, let's say I feel a sense of self behind the eyes, and there's a thought 'this is me'. I would inquire:

Sense of self behind the eyes = sensation = are these sensations the self?
Thought 'this is me' = thought = is this thought the self?
Image of self behind the eyes = thought = is this image the self?

Objections will likely rise up. If so, keep inquiring into those, such as 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here'.

Thought 'Of course there is a self, I'm right here' = thought = is that thought the self?

Then maybe there's a feeling/contraction in the chest, so you inquire into that. Are those sensations the self? Where is it?

If you end up in a quiet place, rest there. Remember, no answer is the answer. There is no answer possible from thought. This needs to be felt into and repeated over and over.

So in your case, this sense of self/perspective, what DE (direct experience) components is it made of? Sensation? Image?