Seeking the end of seeking

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

You say “I'm trying to be the awareness that observes the thought”… Are you going to try next be consciousness in which everything appears, the screen, or something like that? Or Brahman? Ultimate Bliss?
Or Light? Love? Energy? Emptiness? Sorry to be so blunt, but what you’re saying is all concept. And that is why we agreed to leave all teachings aside during the inquiry.

Yes, I realize that I'm trying too hard to "do something" when I try to follow your instructions to observe thoughts and "watch like a hawk." Today I was able to relax this a little bit with your suggestion that it is an effortless noticing, but I seem to quickly slip back into a mode where I'm trying to "look more closely." I'm trying to understand/know how to do that without "trying harder," which just seems to be me imagining (thinking about) what it would be like to look more closely.

What is this “awareness”? Is it some lone witness? What does the term mean, or refer to?
What does it look like – form/colour; does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is there consciousness/awareness or “aware-ing”/knowing/being/noticing? Is awareness ever actually experienced or is it just an idea, an abstraction?

This was helpful. I see that this idea of awareness is just another thought and is not in my immediate experience.

How exactly are you making these thoughts?
What process did you have to put into place in order to imagine the “red barn”?
Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought or an image. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. Describe to me, step-by-step how you did this:

Where did you go to retrieve the thought/image of the barn in order to become aware of it? Is there a storage container hidden somewhere that contains all thoughts and images from which you can then retrieve particular thoughts and images? How then do you bring it from the container to the front of the mind in order to become aware of it? Did you have anything to do with creating the image of the barn, or it simply appeared?

This was a little clearer to me today. I went on a long walk and realized several times throughout that the thoughts were not chosen by me. I did not know before I went on the walk what thoughts would happen.

One of the thoughts that seemed relevant was a memory of several years ago when I was working and going to school, and I walked into work very tired. I remember being so tired that I didn't know how I was walking, and it felt like I didn't have a choice in the matter -- that my feet were just carrying me to my desk.

Think of a 2-digit number. Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

No, I don't know why I choose the numbers I choose in this exercise.

Very good!!! So it seems “you” are only in thoughts?

Yes, it can be clear at times that much of what I take myself to be in daily life is only thought. But it doesn't last long at all, and I can't seem to carry that recognition into daily life. And when I am in my daily activities, I don't recognize this. When I try to, it feels like I'm trying to escape from the daily activities or do them "more spiritually." This seems to make my experience worse because I end up in this psychological deadlock where I am dissatisfied with any strategy I try to apply to my dissatisfaction.

Best,
Brian

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

Yes, I realize that I'm trying too hard to "do something" when I try to follow your instructions to observe thoughts and "watch like a hawk." Today I was able to relax this a little bit with your suggestion that it is an effortless noticing, but I seem to quickly slip back into a mode where I'm trying to "look more closely." I'm trying to understand/know how to do that without "trying harder," which just seems to be me imagining (thinking about) what it would be like to look more closely.

Just notice what is underneath the thoughts, that is what’s meant here. Not what thoughts say is happening but what really is happening. When I say “watch like a hawk” it is because it is a sensitive area where thought is usually taken for truth :). It really is very simple – just noticing what is here now. It will become much easier with time.

This was a little clearer to me today. I went on a long walk and realized several times throughout that the thoughts were not chosen by me. I did not know before I went on the walk what thoughts would happen.

One of the thoughts that seemed relevant was a memory of several years ago when I was working and going to school, and I walked into work very tired. I remember being so tired that I didn't know how I was walking, and it felt like I didn't have a choice in the matter -- that my feet were just carrying me to my desk.

Good that you mention memories. Let’s see what they are “made of”
With the following exercise we are going to look at the idea of memory, which touches on the idea of past, present and future. Past and memory go hand-in-hand as a memory thought (words or mental images) is believed to be referring to something that has happened in the past. Memory thoughts are also thoughts about a future that may or may not happen based on past experiences. A future thought is a thought that projects an idea about a future based on past memory. The majority of us ‘live’ in past or future, but when are those seeming memory thoughts actually taking place?

Sit quietly somewhere for 10 or so minutes and watch the arising thoughts. Notice the thoughts that contain content that refer to a past or future. Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just look at what the direct actual experience is.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?
Is there any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
Is there a difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about the past and a thought about the future.
What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future in actual experience? If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?

In actual experience:-
Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is last night?
Where is midnight?
Where is tomorrow morning?
Where is next week?
Where is next month?
Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these appearing now?

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

The majority of us ‘live’ in past or future, but when are those seeming memory thoughts actually taking place?

They are taking place right now.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’?

It's just a thought. An image, words, or an idea.

Is there any difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

I found surprisingly little difference. The only difference seems to be that there are more associated thoughts around the 'memory' thoughts that seem to support or reinforce it as something that actually happened.

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

Right now.

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Like mentioned in the previous prompt, it seems that the only real difference is how many closely-related thoughts come up around it. For example, other 'memory thoughts' of events that happened around the time of the memory seem to be woven together. This is experienced as other similar thoughts arising very quickly immediately after the memory thought. Some memories also have emotions/sensations associated with them.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

It's also just a thought.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

Right now.

Is there a difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Not really. I suppose most of my 'future' thoughts seem to be about 'my' future, whereas when I think of a 'general thought,' I'm inclined to think of more neutral things, like the 'apple' concept we'd explored before.

How is it known that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

This one is really interesting. I don't know. I am observing my thoughts about activities I have planned tomorrow, and somehow I 'know' that what I'm thinking about is very likely to happen tomorrow. And I see also I'm referencing memory thoughts about similar activities I've done in the past to approximate what I think tomorrow will look like. But I can't seem to see what in me can differentiate these thoughts as more likely to happen than any other scenario.

What is the difference between the thoughts about past and future in actual experience? If there is a difference, how is that difference known exactly?

The only thing I can see that's different is the thoughts surrounding the past and future thoughts. If a memory is unclear, I have thoughts that try and recall other thoughts that might help 'jog my memory.' But then again, that's not so different from if I'm trying to more clearly picture what I'm going to do tomorrow. I suppose the 'surrounding thoughts' arise more slowly in the 'future thought' scenario.

Can a past or future be known? Or all that is known are the AE of thoughts labelled as ‘memory’ that are appearing now?

All that is known is the AE of thoughts.

In actual experience:-
Where is last week?
Where is yesterday?
Where is this morning?
Where is five minutes ago?
Where is one minute ago?
Where is last night?
Where is midnight?
Where is tomorrow morning?
Where is next week?
Where is next month?
Can you find any of these? Or only ‘memory’ thoughts about these appearing now?

Yes, it's clear these are only memory thoughts.

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian
Very good looking!!

This one is really interesting. I don't know. I am observing my thoughts about activities I have planned tomorrow, and somehow I 'know' that what I'm thinking about is very likely to happen tomorrow. And I see also I'm referencing memory thoughts about similar activities I've done in the past to approximate what I think tomorrow will look like. But I can't seem to see what in me can differentiate these thoughts as more likely to happen than any other scenario.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Then after reminding myself that I should just follow my intuition and that I don't have to try and find an experience I've heard about, I put my attention on various sensations in my body: my fingers on the keyboard, my feet on the floor.

Let’s continue the inquiry with the “body”
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

No, there is no experience of now coming and going. I cannot find any direct experience of one moment following another. External events seem to start and end, but the experience of 'now' is always the same 'now.'

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

The present moment doesn't seem to move at all. Observing throughout the day, I always only experienced 'now' and never a start and end of the present moment.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Only thoughts about time. The only way to consider 'the past' is through thought.

Let’s continue the inquiry with the “body”
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

(b) more accurately describes the experience. There is briefly just a pressure sensation followed immediately by coldness radiating.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, there is no sense of the body's dimensions or shape/form. Just sensations occurring.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

There is only the one sensation of body contacting the surface. I cannot find a boundary between body and chair.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It seems when I invoke the concept of 'body,' there is the thought that it is 'my body,' as the only 'body' whose sensations can be experienced. But just feeling the sensations, there are only sensations; the thought of 'my sensations' isn't necessary.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

With eyes closed and not invoking an image of the body, all that's left is direct sensations that don't seem to have an inside/outside. The body against the chair is one sensation. Sounds are occurring, but they aren't necessarily experienced as inside or outside.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The actual experience of the body is various changing sensations.

Can the 'body' do things?

I don't know exactly what is meant by this. I can reach out my hand and touch the table, feeling the cold surface. The body can also type with eyes closed. That causes sensations of pressure on the fingertips. So in this sense, the body seems to be able to do things.

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

It seems when I invoke the concept of 'body,' there is the thought that it is 'my body,' as the only 'body' whose sensations can be experienced. But just feeling the sensations, there are only sensations; the thought of 'my sensations' isn't necessary.

Very good!

The actual experience of the body is various changing sensations.

The actual experience of the "body" is a thought. Thought points to sensation, colour, smell :), taste :) and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience, only thoughts about a body.

I don't know exactly what is meant by this. I can reach out my hand and touch the table, feeling the cold surface. The body can also type with eyes closed. That causes sensations of pressure on the fingertips. So in this sense, the body seems to be able to do things.

What is the DE of “hand reaching to touch the table”? Are there two sensations – hand and table – or one sensation labelled “hand on a table”? What is the DE of body typing? Are there two sensations – body and keys – or one labelled “body typing”?

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Pete

There were passing thoughts like "there's a tingle in the leg" or "the eyes feel tired" that created the idea of a shape in the body but, beyond these thoughts, no, there was no direct experience of shape or form, just a cloud of sensation.

Very good!

Sitting with the eyes closed, when the "my" is dropped everything appears to happen on its own. The flow continues. There is no me that has to do anything. When sitting and doing nothing it seems clear. However, when choosing to do something with the body, that "My" comes back. When I "move my arm up" or "move my toes". It feels like there is an "I" that is willing these things to happen.

The body can be approached the same way as the apple exercise. "The body" is just another label for a bundle of sensations. Where I'm having trouble is when a choice is made. It feels like there is an "I" directing the body's actions. When I decide to lift my arm, it feels like the result of my will, even though the process itself remains unclear. Despite not understanding how I lift my arm, the persistent feeling is somehow I made it happen.

We’ll examine choice later, but let’s just explore the body a bit deeper first.

What is “I move my arm” in DE? What are “arm” and “toes” in DE? With eyes closed it is a sensation + a mental image + thoughts about arm (toes), right? How is the moving of the arm experienced? Are there two sensations - one of “moving” and one of “arm” - or one labelled “I move my arm”? Also does the sensation “arm” has a location? Can the sensation "arm" move through space? What is that space made of? Or the location is a label? LOOK carefully!
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

What is the DE of “hand reaching to touch the table”? Are there two sensations – hand and table – or one sensation labelled “hand on a table”? What is the DE of body typing? Are there two sensations – body and keys – or one labelled “body typing”?

In both cases, there is only the one sensation.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No, there is no connection in DE. Just thoughts.

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No, there is no connection.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Only thoughts suggest the connection.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

There is only sight: color and shapes. Nothing suggests a 'body' other than thoughts.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Only thoughts and mental images (expectation) suggest there are legs.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There is no body in DE, only sensations.

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

There is no actual experience of walking -- just sensations and thoughts about walking.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Only thoughts about a body

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?[/quote]
No, only thoughts about walking.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Yes, it's interesting that location in space doesn't arise as a direct experience. There are just sight, sound, feeling sensations.

Best,
Brian

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

I see now where my missing post went :)). I apologise if I caused any confusion!

Yes, it's interesting that location in space doesn't arise as a direct experience. There are just sight, sound, feeling sensations.

Awesome!!! So can the body do things?
The location is actually a label for experience. You can examine: 'here' and 'there'; 'above' and 'below'; 'left' and right'; 'in front' and 'behind'. All of these need a reference point. Is there such a reference point? What exactly is taken for a reference point?

Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.

Seems like/feels like = thought content

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice)

Step1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
Step2. Count to 5.
Step3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

Please take your time with each exercise! Repeat as many times as you need and then write the answers for all of them. Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire with the questions.
Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

I see now where my missing post went :)). I apologise if I caused any confusion!

No problem! I hope Pete is doing well :)

So can the body do things?

There is no DE of the body doing anything; just thoughts about the body doing things.

The location is actually a label for experience. You can examine: 'here' and 'there'; 'above' and 'below'; 'left' and right'; 'in front' and 'behind'. All of these need a reference point. Is there such a reference point? What exactly is taken for a reference point?

I think I see a glimmer of this. There is nothing in DE that suggests the feeling of 'my back' is behind 'me.' Or even that 'my back' is behind 'my chest.' They are just sensations. But 'my head' feels 'above' both of them most of the time. Moreover, 'I' feel like 'I' am above my chest, in my head, most of the time. When I look, I can't have a DE of a 'me,' but that recognition is still fleeting.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. In DE, I just experience the sight and feeling of my hand/arm moving.

Does a thought control it?

No, there was a visual image (thought) of what the instructions meant, and then I performed the action. But it wasn't experienced as the thought caused the action.

Can a ‘controller’ or an entity that is choosing be located?

No. This is becoming a little more apparent in daily life, as well. I'm at a work conference this week and I'm frequently adapting some of the exercises to movements I do. I'm particularly noticing it when I find myself taking a drink of water that 'I' am not making a choice to do so.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

I don't know. I'm finding myself repeating the exercise over and over, and I can't even find the decision to stop or resume the exercise.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

The qualities of the beverages and my preference appeared on their own.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?

Nom there was no DE of an entity doing the choosing. I actually flip-flopped my choice several times while counting to see if I could find when the 'real' decision was being made. But nothing like that happened. And also nothing in DE made a choice to switch my choice back and forth.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?

No, no chooser arose.

3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...

I am currently at a work conference that I agreed to go to after being chosen to attend. I was selected several months ago because we (my team) wanted to get registered early to ensure we had our spots reserved. The conference I'm attending is in an area I haven't been working in much lately, but the subject matter is important to the company. I talked to the person in charge of our event about a month ago, offering to transfer my spot to someone working more directly in the area, but he assured me that my attendance would still be beneficial and gave several reasons.

I still wanted to go because it sounded exciting, but I was worried about disappointing the team by not having the relevant information to get the most out of my time at the conference. I also experienced some imposter syndrome, imagining others are wondering why I'm attending (everyone else that's here is working in areas that are very obviously relevant). But I decided to go because I felt like I 'got permission' from the person higher up in the organization.

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

- I've made a good impression on the person making choices of who goes. If I had not done so, he might have overlooked me or even lobbied against my attending. According to thought, I was in control of my attitude, work ethic, skills, etc. that led him to form a good impression of me. But his decision was outside my influence.
- At the time he was making choices, my work was very relevant to the conference. If my work wasn't relevant, I probably wouldn't have come to mind when he was making decisions. Similar to the above, I was in control of my work ethic, etc. that led to me being trusted to work on a high-value project. But I was certainly not in control of when the event was taking place, or the higher-level decisions that we would have anyone in the company attend the conference.
- I have been at the company for a relatively long time and have worked my way into a relatively high position. This is also similar to the above points, in that the timing of the conference was outside my control, but it seems that my hard work and persistence has gotten me to where I am.
- There could have been numerous reasons why it wouldn't have been practical for me to be away from home for the whole week, most of which would have been outside my control. In fact, my son was showing signs of getting quite ill a few days before I came, and I wondered if it might get to the point where I should decide to stay, just in case. (He's fine now)

Best,
Brian

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian

I think I see a glimmer of this. There is nothing in DE that suggests the feeling of 'my back' is behind 'me.' Or even that 'my back' is behind 'my chest.' They are just sensations. But 'my head' feels 'above' both of them most of the time. Moreover, 'I' feel like 'I' am above my chest, in my head, most of the time. When I look, I can't have a DE of a 'me,' but that recognition is still fleeting.

Let’s take a closer look at the idea of the head, where it is believed thinking, seeing and consciousness occurs, but can a head be found as actual experience?
Please IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’. Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them?

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?

When we try to trace back the origin of a thought, it is often believed that it's coming from the forehead, because the attention automatically goes to the sensation of the forehead. Investigate this carefully as often as you can throughout the day. Have a very deep look here... the forehead is one place we feel the ‘sense of self’ resides, or rather, the sensation that is labelled as ‘forehead’ is believed to be one of the location of the sense of self. Close your eyes and look to see what the AE of the ‘forehead’ is. Then look at the following questions.

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead, right?

So, can a thought come from a sensation?
Can a thought come from a mental image?
Does the mental image suggest in any that it is a ‘forehead’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘forehead’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘me’?
Other than thought, can you find anything that suggests the sensation labelled as ‘forehead’ is a forehead or a me?

Furthermore, it's also believed that 'visual sights' are coming from the eyes, because when it's investigated the attention automatically goes to the sensation 'of the eyes', and at the same time the mental image or idea 'of the eyes' appear with it.

So another sense of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.
What are the eyes in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image + thoughts about eyes, right?

Can sight (colour) come from a sensation?
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?
Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
Does a mental image suggest in any way that it is eyes?

Nom there was no DE of an entity doing the choosing. I actually flip-flopped my choice several times while counting to see if I could find when the 'real' decision was being made. But nothing like that happened. And also nothing in DE made a choice to switch my choice back and forth.

Very good! You might find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

There could have been numerous reasons why it wouldn't have been practical for me to be away from home for the whole week, most of which would have been outside my control. In fact, my son was showing signs of getting quite ill a few days before I came, and I wondered if it might get to the point where I should decide to stay, just in case. (He's fine now)

I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with “actions” based on previous conditioning. The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Why does the wind blow? It just blows. Yes we can say it happens as a result of previous events but there’s no entity “wind” that does the blowing. There is no wind that decides to blow. It’s just language. What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”. So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear? Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content? Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

I'm just letting you know my response is delayed because I'm at this work conference, and yesterday I began feeling unwell. I started trying to investigate the latest questions last night, but I found myself exhausted and trying to 'get through' them rather than being able to muster real curiosity. I will try to get back to them tonight.

Thank you again for the guidance,
Brian

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian
Thank you for letting me know! I hope you feel better soon! Come back to the questions when you feel that you can give them proper attention

Love
Rali

[ablitofself]

Hi Rali,

Let’s take a closer look at the idea of the head, where it is believed thinking, seeing and consciousness occurs, but can a head be found as actual experience?
Please IGNORE all thoughts and mental images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’. Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation (labelled ‘pressure’) and thoughts ABOUT a head?

It's just a sensation and thoughts about a head.

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or are there just thoughts about something being in between them?

There are just sensations again, and no, there is nothing between them. Just thoughts.

Without thought, how big is your head?
Without thought, does it have an inside or an outside?
Without thought, does it have a location?

I've tried several times in the past couple days, but I'm not sure I'm finding the DE these questions point to. When I try to find the size of my head, I just feel the sensations around it. I realize that I must be using thought to associate the sensations with a size/location, but I can't seem to experience them without some level of thought.

What is the forehead in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead, right?

Yes, that's right.

So, can a thought come from a sensation?
Can a thought come from a mental image?

No

Does the mental image suggest in any that it is a ‘forehead’?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘forehead’?

No, the mental image is just a mental image, and the sensation is just a sensation

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘me’?
Other than thought, can you find anything that suggests the sensation labelled as ‘forehead’ is a forehead or a me?

No, I don't see anything suggesting it is a 'me.'

So another sense of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.
What are the eyes in the actual experience?
A sensation + a mental image + thoughts about eyes, right?

Right

Can sight (colour) come from a sensation?
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?

No, color doesn't come from sensation, and sight continues to happen without an image of the eyes.

Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?

No, they appear to be independent

Does a mental image suggest in any way that it is eyes?

No, the mental image is not eyes

What is “moving of the hands” in DE? We’ve seen that it’s just a sensation, labelled “hands moving” + colour/shape labelled “hands moving”.

Agreed

So, what makes the sensations to appear? What makes seeing to appear? LOOK! Is there anything that causes anything to appear?

I can't find anything that makes the sensations or seeing appear

Do cause and effect exist outside of thought content?

No, cause and effect are not directly experienced except as thoughts

Thought comes to describe that things are happening and why they are happening, but in DE things are just happening. Is the description/explanation/label needed for things to happen?

No, it's clear that none of those are needed for anything to happen. They are applied only after the DE.

Best,
Brian

[poppyseed]

Hi Brian
Nice to have you back! I hope you are feeling better!
By the way, how is life these days?

Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?

No, they appear to be independent

The same way they is no causal relationship between them, they are also not independent. We don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different "aspects" of experience/what IS. Thought tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one experience. Senses seem to affect each other. Although speech is perceived through the ears, what we see can change what we hear. In this video, a man produces the same syllable over and over again. If you watch his mouth, you’ll hear the syllable “fah,” but if you look away, you’ll hear “bah.” Although your ears hear “bah,” your eyes see “fah”. This phenomenon is known as the McGurk effect. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k8fHR9jKVM )

Another example of sensory interaction is how both taste and smell are vital for savouring food (flavour). If smell is lost or impaired, for instance, the taste of food will also be impaired, even if taste receptors on the tongue are working fine.
Here is a fun video that demonstrates how a relationship between sight and touch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DphlhmtGRqI

Even though it might look as there are clearly defined senses, DE shows a different story. So even the senses are dependently originated which makes them also empty of inherent existence. To say it in another way, only thought can isolate “things” as separate and look for a relationship among them. So even the senses are empty, useful labels but still fictional. Is that clear?

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Love
Rali