Hi Elad
Q: I think you are not seeing that you did not respond to the first part. *In full mindfulness/attentiveness to what is there, it is seen that no self is there* - is that your experience?
A: I apologise. Missed answering it. Yes, in full inquiry and attentiveness it is very clearly seen time and again that there is no separate self. This is super clear.
Q: The second part - where you put your attention in the answer - just pertains to whatever the habits of attentiveness versus being lost in thoughts is. All these habits happen by themselves and don't need to change for awakening to happen. Awakening just needs one moment where it is truly seen and acknowledged what is actually there and what is a fantasy. It's not like the dream can't come back after awakening - it typically will for a lot of the time - it's not that suddenly there is amazing ongoing attentiveness. It's just that now it has been clearly seen that this is just being lost in very habitual and very normal daydreams.
A: I see. This is where I the doubt comes for me. The thoughts that say that the attentiveness should be 24x7 makes me feel that I am not awakened. I have not had just one moment, but several moments and days where it was clear that there is no separate self. But then thoughts come back and illusory sense of "me" comes back, I also get a thought that I am not awakened. No one told me before that experience of seeing into non-duality need not be 24x7.
The last bit
-
emptylooking
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:12 am
Re: The last bit
Can anyone choose anything?
A: No. Its all spontaneous and without reason or rhyme. Thoughts create reason out of whats happening.
Do the sensations that are habitually associated with I in any way say or inherently express that they are I?
A: Not at all
Does the word I or the name AJ in any way indicate the existence of anything stable, anything that is not just a belief based on a process of thinking?
A: I and AJ are all labels for this illusory selfing mechanism to keep operating.
Also, do this exercise:
Body Exercise
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
A: I love this exercise and I have been doing this intuitively for many months. Few months ago, with eyes closed, I finally dropped the image of the body that was forming in the mind. Now when I close the eyes, its all abstract sensations. No height, shape etc. If shape comes in thought, that gets rejected.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
A: No. Not even set boundary. Just sensations.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
A: No.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
A: I am doing this type of exercise more and more. No set boundary between any seeming body part and the surroundings. Just interpretation of sensations in the mind.
Is there an inside or an outside?
A: No
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
A: The label "body" for me refers to the visual lines I see with my open eyes. And it comes with a subtle assumption in mind that "I" am inside these lines and boundary. But in inquiry this is not seen to be the case.
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
A: No. Its all spontaneous and without reason or rhyme. Thoughts create reason out of whats happening.
Do the sensations that are habitually associated with I in any way say or inherently express that they are I?
A: Not at all
Does the word I or the name AJ in any way indicate the existence of anything stable, anything that is not just a belief based on a process of thinking?
A: I and AJ are all labels for this illusory selfing mechanism to keep operating.
Also, do this exercise:
Body Exercise
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
A: I love this exercise and I have been doing this intuitively for many months. Few months ago, with eyes closed, I finally dropped the image of the body that was forming in the mind. Now when I close the eyes, its all abstract sensations. No height, shape etc. If shape comes in thought, that gets rejected.
Does the body have a weight or volume?
A: No. Not even set boundary. Just sensations.
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
A: No.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing? Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
A: I am doing this type of exercise more and more. No set boundary between any seeming body part and the surroundings. Just interpretation of sensations in the mind.
Is there an inside or an outside?
A: No
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
A: The label "body" for me refers to the visual lines I see with my open eyes. And it comes with a subtle assumption in mind that "I" am inside these lines and boundary. But in inquiry this is not seen to be the case.
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.
Re: The last bit
Beautiful.
1) So the sense here is that seeing all ready is happening and the process of deepening is on. What reactions come up to that?
2) AJ (or Elad) will never have an awakening, because AJ does not exist. Thus saying AJ is awakened and saying AJ is not awakened will both not feel deeply true. Both are only on the level of words and stories. At best helpful in a particular moment of communication. What reactions come up to that?
Thoughts of doubt and wishing for something else in the future are all just habitual mechanisms without a self. As expressed in last message, they don't necessarily go away after seeing. A process of working through other confusing beliefs continues.
3) If a doubtful thought about seeing is there now or recall/activate a doubtful thought, and look:
- What is the "juice" in the thought, what is it trying to achieve? More control? A fantasy of a future where things will be ongoingly enjoyable or safe?
- When thoughts go to doubt and imagined better futures, what is being avoided now in direct experience? What sensation, belief, feeling in the now?
This starts the process of working through deeper "fetters" in the words of Buddhism, where the process goes post initial awakening/seeing no self.
1) So the sense here is that seeing all ready is happening and the process of deepening is on. What reactions come up to that?
2) AJ (or Elad) will never have an awakening, because AJ does not exist. Thus saying AJ is awakened and saying AJ is not awakened will both not feel deeply true. Both are only on the level of words and stories. At best helpful in a particular moment of communication. What reactions come up to that?
Thoughts of doubt and wishing for something else in the future are all just habitual mechanisms without a self. As expressed in last message, they don't necessarily go away after seeing. A process of working through other confusing beliefs continues.
3) If a doubtful thought about seeing is there now or recall/activate a doubtful thought, and look:
- What is the "juice" in the thought, what is it trying to achieve? More control? A fantasy of a future where things will be ongoingly enjoyable or safe?
- When thoughts go to doubt and imagined better futures, what is being avoided now in direct experience? What sensation, belief, feeling in the now?
This starts the process of working through deeper "fetters" in the words of Buddhism, where the process goes post initial awakening/seeing no self.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: The last bit
Also watch this video from one of the founders of LU:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=qFSJiZtC7QeQH-vC
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=qFSJiZtC7QeQH-vC
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
emptylooking
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:12 am
Re: The last bit
Hi Elad
1) So the sense here is that seeing all ready is happening and the process of deepening is on. What reactions come up to that?
I agree. There was a lot of reactivity and deep anger/resentment that got released in last few months. Now there is a deeper level of opening is happening.
2) AJ (or Elad) will never have an awakening, because AJ does not exist. Thus saying AJ is awakened and saying AJ is not awakened will both not feel deeply true. Both are only on the level of words and stories. At best helpful in a particular moment of communication. What reactions come up to that?
Yes agree. This needs to be seen again and again. Especially "I am not awakened" thought.
Thoughts of doubt and wishing for something else in the future are all just habitual mechanisms without a self. As expressed in last message, they don't necessarily go away after seeing. A process of working through other confusing beliefs continues.
I am interested to know about your views on the level of opening that often gets reported by others either in books or videos and they use sentences like these:
- Panoramic awareness
- Whole field is awake to itself
- You see the mystery that is right in front of your nose the whole time
- Your vision becomes 2D and you bump into things
- There is no locality left but a vast open space.
Is this all getting reported after falling of 6th and 7th Fetter?
3) If a doubtful thought about seeing is there now or recall/activate a doubtful thought, and look:
- What is the "juice" in the thought, what is it trying to achieve? More control? A fantasy of a future where things will be ongoingly enjoyable or safe?
The juice in the thought is "coming home" and "stillness". Its of ending suffering completely and irrevocably.
- When thoughts go to doubt and imagined better futures, what is being avoided now in direct experience? What sensation, belief, feeling in the now?
Suffering of the mind and sensations of frustration is avoided.
This starts the process of working through deeper "fetters" in the words of Buddhism, where the process goes post initial awakening/seeing no self.
Yes, so I looked into fetters few months ago while watching interviews between Angelo and Kevin. Then I recently received my order of "Finding Awakening" book by Christiane. Fascinating and very helpful. In the book, she mentions that people who come from non-duality, develop a leading edge into higher fetters while still anchored in the first few fetters. It resonates with me. It seems that my thoughts (of doubt) are stuck in the first 3 fetters while I am actively looking at resistance in 4th and 5th fetter, and I actually want the freedom that comes after falling of 6th fetter.
1) So the sense here is that seeing all ready is happening and the process of deepening is on. What reactions come up to that?
I agree. There was a lot of reactivity and deep anger/resentment that got released in last few months. Now there is a deeper level of opening is happening.
2) AJ (or Elad) will never have an awakening, because AJ does not exist. Thus saying AJ is awakened and saying AJ is not awakened will both not feel deeply true. Both are only on the level of words and stories. At best helpful in a particular moment of communication. What reactions come up to that?
Yes agree. This needs to be seen again and again. Especially "I am not awakened" thought.
Thoughts of doubt and wishing for something else in the future are all just habitual mechanisms without a self. As expressed in last message, they don't necessarily go away after seeing. A process of working through other confusing beliefs continues.
I am interested to know about your views on the level of opening that often gets reported by others either in books or videos and they use sentences like these:
- Panoramic awareness
- Whole field is awake to itself
- You see the mystery that is right in front of your nose the whole time
- Your vision becomes 2D and you bump into things
- There is no locality left but a vast open space.
Is this all getting reported after falling of 6th and 7th Fetter?
3) If a doubtful thought about seeing is there now or recall/activate a doubtful thought, and look:
- What is the "juice" in the thought, what is it trying to achieve? More control? A fantasy of a future where things will be ongoingly enjoyable or safe?
The juice in the thought is "coming home" and "stillness". Its of ending suffering completely and irrevocably.
- When thoughts go to doubt and imagined better futures, what is being avoided now in direct experience? What sensation, belief, feeling in the now?
Suffering of the mind and sensations of frustration is avoided.
This starts the process of working through deeper "fetters" in the words of Buddhism, where the process goes post initial awakening/seeing no self.
Yes, so I looked into fetters few months ago while watching interviews between Angelo and Kevin. Then I recently received my order of "Finding Awakening" book by Christiane. Fascinating and very helpful. In the book, she mentions that people who come from non-duality, develop a leading edge into higher fetters while still anchored in the first few fetters. It resonates with me. It seems that my thoughts (of doubt) are stuck in the first 3 fetters while I am actively looking at resistance in 4th and 5th fetter, and I actually want the freedom that comes after falling of 6th fetter.
Re: The last bit
Hi AJ,
This is all very clear. In terms of the question of what feeling or sensation is being avoided, I have a sense maybe exploration can go deeper, with questions like "what exactly in the here and now, not comparing or evaluating, is suffering in the body and mind/wrong/incomplete in experience?" That is post-LU work. All the things and experiences you ask about here are fetter 4/5 and beyond questions. Those experiences you ask about 2d view, freedom from suffering, etc etc, are not within LU investigation, that is about F1 (and some say 2-3 which go with it).
I think you are ready for final questions. After graduating LU you will get access to more forums and options where you can continue deepening/fetter work. Final questions are standard in LU and reviewed by 3 other guides beside me. If any of us think we can help you clarify further, we will ask more. I will post the questions in next post. Please answer each question after ANSWER and make sure there is good spacing and it's easy to track for the other guides, thanks.
If you think we should be working with something before the questions, please let me know. There is no hurry and no time limit on this.
This is all very clear. In terms of the question of what feeling or sensation is being avoided, I have a sense maybe exploration can go deeper, with questions like "what exactly in the here and now, not comparing or evaluating, is suffering in the body and mind/wrong/incomplete in experience?" That is post-LU work. All the things and experiences you ask about here are fetter 4/5 and beyond questions. Those experiences you ask about 2d view, freedom from suffering, etc etc, are not within LU investigation, that is about F1 (and some say 2-3 which go with it).
I think you are ready for final questions. After graduating LU you will get access to more forums and options where you can continue deepening/fetter work. Final questions are standard in LU and reviewed by 3 other guides beside me. If any of us think we can help you clarify further, we will ask more. I will post the questions in next post. Please answer each question after ANSWER and make sure there is good spacing and it's easy to track for the other guides, thanks.
If you think we should be working with something before the questions, please let me know. There is no hurry and no time limit on this.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: The last bit
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER:
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER:
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.
ANSWER:
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
ANSWER:
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER:
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER:
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER:
6) Anything to add?
ANSWER:
ANSWER:
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER:
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.
ANSWER:
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
ANSWER:
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER:
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER:
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER:
6) Anything to add?
ANSWER:
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
emptylooking
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:12 am
Re: The last bit
Thanks for everything Elad. Here are the answers:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER: No there is none. Just the make believe thought that says it so. There was never a separate self. Only illusion of one.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER: As I see it now, an "I" thought persists that "assumes" that any other thought and the body (form) is itself. This create an illusion of separate body/mind complex. An inner thought world. Attention is pulled into the thought world. There are gross thoughts and there are then subtle filters. Gross thoughts consists of words that comes from language that was learned when I was a baby. These gross thoughts always have an "I" or "Me" statement and it refers to the body a lot.
The subtle filters assumes that because there is a separate me, there must be separate others and objects. It creates illusion of time, space, distance etc. When I get a sense of separate "me" then I inquire where it is. It normally takes me to head or chest region. When I take attention closer, there are only sensations there and more thoughts about body part. The sense of "me" disappears in the inquiry and only sensations are left.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.
ANSWER: Feels freeing. Feels that there is clarity in seeing through the reactivity now. Before mind was taking to mind. Ego was trying to get rid of ego. Resistance to resistance. Now its clearly seen there is no separate background to all thought chatter. Before our chat there was a subtle doubt that "awakening" is falling away of 6th fetter. Now its clear that this doubt is also an auto product of the selfing mechanism and its part of the illusion of separateness. I can now move towards 4th and 5th fetter more deeply and look all reactivity closely. Later this selfing mechanism will drop completely on its own.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
ANSWER: When I really started to take attention closer and closer to the sense of "I" and discovered that thought of "I" drops away and only sensations are left. This is when I started to come out of the inner world and into the senses.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER: Its all automatic. Any sense of agency is an instant after thought. As soon as something happens, thought interprets it and claims the action as its own. All what seems to be happening is happening on its own. No background, no basis, no particular rhyme or reason. Mind create reason and meaning out of it and adds filters.
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER: Don't know. Its a mystery. It just happens.
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER: There is no me to be responsible for anything. Responsibility itself is an idea rooted in separation and duality. Who would be responsible for what.
6) Anything to add?
ANSWER: Only gratitude. Thanks a lot for having this platform made available. I really like the daily looking and would like to continue work with you guys on fetters.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
ANSWER: No there is none. Just the make believe thought that says it so. There was never a separate self. Only illusion of one.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
ANSWER: As I see it now, an "I" thought persists that "assumes" that any other thought and the body (form) is itself. This create an illusion of separate body/mind complex. An inner thought world. Attention is pulled into the thought world. There are gross thoughts and there are then subtle filters. Gross thoughts consists of words that comes from language that was learned when I was a baby. These gross thoughts always have an "I" or "Me" statement and it refers to the body a lot.
The subtle filters assumes that because there is a separate me, there must be separate others and objects. It creates illusion of time, space, distance etc. When I get a sense of separate "me" then I inquire where it is. It normally takes me to head or chest region. When I take attention closer, there are only sensations there and more thoughts about body part. The sense of "me" disappears in the inquiry and only sensations are left.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.
ANSWER: Feels freeing. Feels that there is clarity in seeing through the reactivity now. Before mind was taking to mind. Ego was trying to get rid of ego. Resistance to resistance. Now its clearly seen there is no separate background to all thought chatter. Before our chat there was a subtle doubt that "awakening" is falling away of 6th fetter. Now its clear that this doubt is also an auto product of the selfing mechanism and its part of the illusion of separateness. I can now move towards 4th and 5th fetter more deeply and look all reactivity closely. Later this selfing mechanism will drop completely on its own.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
ANSWER: When I really started to take attention closer and closer to the sense of "I" and discovered that thought of "I" drops away and only sensations are left. This is when I started to come out of the inner world and into the senses.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
ANSWER: Its all automatic. Any sense of agency is an instant after thought. As soon as something happens, thought interprets it and claims the action as its own. All what seems to be happening is happening on its own. No background, no basis, no particular rhyme or reason. Mind create reason and meaning out of it and adds filters.
6) What makes things happen? How does it work?
ANSWER: Don't know. Its a mystery. It just happens.
7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
ANSWER: There is no me to be responsible for anything. Responsibility itself is an idea rooted in separation and duality. Who would be responsible for what.
6) Anything to add?
ANSWER: Only gratitude. Thanks a lot for having this platform made available. I really like the daily looking and would like to continue work with you guys on fetters.
Re: The last bit
Hi AJ, I and 3 other guides reviewed your answers, and no one had questions, looks clear to us. Meaning you "graduated" from LU. As you know really the seeing cannot be had or confirmed by any separate or external authority. Nerina wil contact you to continue from here. Once you join the LU Unleashed facebook group for people who graduated from LU I will greet you there, we can connect, and I will talk to you about options for continuing with fetter work and such. If you are not on facebook you can write me your email here, and we can connect that way. It's been a pleasure to work with you here. I am happy to stay in touch for sharing/questions/mutual inspiration.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
-
emptylooking
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:12 am
Re: The last bit
Thank you so much Elad for guiding through the last bit.
I look forward to connecting with you on Facebook and further investigating into remaining fetters.
Much love and gratitude
I look forward to connecting with you on Facebook and further investigating into remaining fetters.
Much love and gratitude
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