Living without a centre

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?
Let’s explore sensations and the labels we usually find around them…

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hi Rali, i will get back to you tomorrow, would like a little more time on this, love to you, Ken

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, wow that was a journey. Thank you. Please my responses below.

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit.
How does it feel to see what actually is?
Let’s explore sensations and the labels we usually find around them…

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

B. When picking up the cold jug there was just the sensation labelled “coldness”. It wasn’t really fingers which were cold as individual fingers could not be discerned. There was just a area/experience of “coldness.

Feeling appeared first a hair’s breadth before it is labelled/known as “coldness”. The “coldness” at first just appeared but I could see “mind” attempting to locate it in right hand… over there.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?

Initially I could not detect a how tall the body was. There were just clusters of sensations here and there. I could detect mind working to create an image of the body and its size. It is like a mental overlay.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Weight: There is just sensation where the body meets chair but that is un-locatable when really explored, and there isn’t a line where body meets chair, just sensation.

Volume: This was actually trickier. There was not any volume, at least with eyes closed, because there was no outside or inside. But mind was imposing space as being outside so the body then seemed to have boundaries.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Not if I stay with DE. Again the mind tried to impose a mental image of shape and to make it solid.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

Just one sensation.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

This is interesting. Ordinarily it appears to be “my” body. However, when attention is a little more focussed then its easier to get glimpses of it being a "body". The “me’ which appears too have a body seems to be around the head, but when looked for it cannot be found.

Is there an inside or an outside?

This is easier to realise with hearing. When there is a sound (hearing) and eyes are closed there is just hearing. If a thought arises that feels no more inside than a sound. Seeing is not so easy.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I tried this with sensation (feeling). With eyes closed I put my hand on a cushion. Immediately there was no inside or outside, then mind tried to insert an assumption. But then it was realised there was just sensation, not inside or outside. Mind came in again but it was seen.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Right now if I take a few moments to look it refers to sensations (lap top on knees, back on chair etc.) Sensations (cold hands). Hearing (traffic).
Sensations (around face). I can see the mind wanting to insert a mental image of the body. I do take that mental image to be the body ordinarily.

Can the 'body' do things?

Not quite sure I am on the right track here. Well if the body is just a cluster of sensations and other sense activity such as hearing etc then no, the “body’ doesn’t do things. I am a little confused here.

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love to you Rali, thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken

Right now if I take a few moments to look it refers to sensations (lap top on knees, back on chair etc.) Sensations (cold hands). Hearing (traffic).
Sensations (around face). I can see the mind wanting to insert a mental image of the body. I do take that mental image to be the body ordinarily.

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation, colour, smell :), taste :) and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience, only thoughts about a body. Do sensations have a location (e.g. “around face”? Or the location is also a label? What is a "face" in DE and where exactly is it?

Not quite sure I am on the right track here. Well if the body is just a cluster of sensations and other sense activity such as hearing etc then no, the “body’ doesn’t do things. I am a little confused here.

Yes, a label/word cannot do things. Can sensations do things? What is “do things” in DE?

I can see that you enjoyed exploring the “body”, so here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, thank you. There is a lot here and I will take my time. Let me get back to you tomorrow. Love to you, Ken

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, this is subtle! I have also been a little busy with work. I am free tomorrow and will continue to look. Be happy, love, Ken

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken
Thanks for letting me know! Enjoy it!
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, wow this was so much more subtle. "Mind"was working overtime to make a 'complete' picture of 'me' and 'my body'. At some point i got looking fatigue...I think at times I was trying a little too hard. Needed to relax into it. I am seeing at times that thought is making it up...and yet I see thought itself cannot feel, see or hear...its deaf dumb and blind. Amazing!

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation, colour, smell :), taste :) and labels it a ‘body’, but a body cannot be found as actual experience, only thoughts about a body. 

Do sensations have a location (e.g. “around face”? Or the location is also a label? What is a "face" in DE and where exactly is it?

Ah yes, it’s easier with eyes closed to see this. It’s so subtle and believable but the location is a label. Face is just cluster of sensations labelled 'face'. If thought is not believed it doesn’t have a location.

Yes, a label/word cannot do things. Can sensations do things? What is “do things” in DE?

No, of course a sensation cannot do anything.

I can see that you enjoyed exploring the “body”, so here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Oh yes it was seen instantly that there was no connection, but 'mind' was scurrying around trying to make a connection between sensations and the image in the mirror.

(

3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

This was tricky…There was seeing - colour in the mirror but and it did feel a bit strange because at times there was a disconnect. "waving' in the mirror but just sensations "here."

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

it seemed that the sensations were not moving but 'hand' was. Sensations definately didnt move it was just happening. ...weird!

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

There are only colours and shapes…only thought makes it into ‘me’.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

Oh yes, only thoughts/images were suggestive of ‘lower body.’ I sat for a while looking out of window after this exercise and the same thing was seen…there were sensations, colours, shapes, but in DE no ‘body’.

(

7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Ah just like previous…yes this was clearer, there are only sensations

(

8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Ah yes, interesting how thought was trying to slide ‘ a body walking’ into the DE of sensations.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Only in thought

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Yes just thoughts about walking

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No ‘walking’ is added on

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Interesting…it seems even ‘space' is added on. Again in DE at times it was seen thee are just sensations. It’s just all sensation if I may be so bold.

thank you Rali, love to you...that was a journey indeed. This could be done for weeks on end. Ken

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken

it seemed that the sensations were not moving but 'hand' was. Sensations definately didnt move it was just happening. ...weird!

Interesting…it seems even ‘space' is added on. Again in DE at times it was seen thee are just sensations. It’s just all sensation if I may be so bold.

Was there anything to move or just seeing fluctuating?

In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. Seeing is like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.


Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?
Also, is there space where a hand can move? What is space made of? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?


When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects. IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels:-
Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?
Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, thank you. Please see my responses below.

Was there anything to move or just seeing fluctuating?

There was experiencing, but it seems that is all I can say about it. Not sure about seeing fluctuating.

In DE there is only seeing/hearing/etc. and thinking provides the labels. Seeing is like a picture that everything is drawn in pencil on paper – the illusion of separation is created by different colours used – otherwise it’s all paper.

Different colours in seeing create the illusion of things but all that is there is seeing. Different levels of sounds create the illusion of a song but all that is there is hearing. Can you see that?

There are moments when this is obvious, then it appears to be lost when it is all referenced to a centre, ‘me.’

Also, is there space where a hand can move? What is space made of? What is the difference between “here” and “there” without thought content?

Ok, without thought there is just seeing…there isn’t even space. What is space made of?…Well without thought there is just seeing, experiencing, so it’s just be made of…THOUGHT!

When looking at this picture, thought automatically divides and labels colour into many different colours, then further names those colours into specific objects. IGNORE ALL object labels and colour labels:-
Are there many colours? Or is there simply colour?

Instantly, there was just colour, then I could see labels being stuck on to 'colours.' The labelling (mind) comes after the initial bare experience.

Is there an actual gap between the ‘trees’? Or is the gap actually colour?
Where does colour begin and end? In other words, can an actual dividing line be found between where one colour ends and another begins, or is that just a mental construct?

Ah yes, just colour. The gap (space between) is added by thought. Again, I could see that immediately then could see thought sliding labels ‘in-between.”

Thank you Rali, love to you...Ken

[poppyseed]

Hi Ken
Good looking!

Was there anything to move or just seeing fluctuating?

There was experiencing, but it seems that is all I can say about it. Not sure about seeing fluctuating.

I meant it’s dynamic seeing – colours appearing to change

There are moments when this is obvious, then it appears to be lost when it is all referenced to a centre, ‘me.’

Okay, so let's look at the idea of a me 'here' and a world, others ie objects 'out there' - is there an experiencer of experience, or are they one and the same. We'll use seeing as the means to look.

Ask yourself...what separates you from colour?

Firstly, look at whatever is in front of you.
Is it seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or is it like a windscreen view?
Now zoom back inwards and try to find that which is seeing.
Is seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen - seeingseen? Is there any awareness/knowing separate from experience or is there just experience - experiencingexperience?Is what is seen of the body separate to what's seen, or is it part of seamless whole that is seen?
Are seeing and knowing separate or are they one and the same. Is there seeing AND colour or are they one and the same seeingcolour? Is there two things present? Colour AND experience? Or are colour and experience one and the same?

Now look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate? If yes, can you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses?
…
Does space in any way hinder, obstruct or make difficult seeingcolour? When you close your eyes and then open them and you look at the display in front of you…is not seeingcolour instant and simultaneous? Can you have seeing without the seen, and the seen without the seeing? Can seeingseen, seeingcolour be separate at any time?

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Remember!
“seems like”/”feels like” = thought content
Nothing in DE is “seems like” – it’s either here or not
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?

What discerns it, distinguishes it, filters it out from "not me", etc.?
If and when that sense of "me" arises, what creates and/or notices it?
When there is a sense of "me", and thus "not me" as well, look for what "in here" looks out at what is "out there" (i.e., "not me")?
And having experienced a "me" your whole life: was it because you identified with an aspect of experience, or identified as an aspect of experience? Is/was there a difference between identifying with and identifying as something?

Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, interesting stuff. Let me spend a little longer on this and will get back to you tomorrow...love, Ken

[ZenKen]

Hi Rali, I am really enjoying this and want to go slowly so I will spend another day on this. Love to you...Ken

[poppyseed]

Sure, Ken! Enjoy!
Love
Rali

[ZenKen]

Hello Rali, if you don't mind I am going to spend more time on this. Some of these questions a really good...love to you, ken