Tired of searching

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

I suppose that you have tried to do what I suggest?

Yes I did spend time doing it in my flat. Walking to work today spending time with investigating objects that was seen and asking if that tree was hidng the self, if the person I met or the car that drove by was hiding myself in it. Obviously nothing was relating to the self. I coudn't find the self in my flat, nor in things surrounding me.

If you believe there is a self somewhere, check if that's true.

It is obvious that there is no self in the world outside of me. But when it comes to checking the person Sari, it is different. Or at least it seems so. I take myself to be that self.

What are you trying or expecting to find?

Don't know.... somekind of Aha moment, maybe a moment of recognition or clarity. Sense of truth.

What do you think a self is?

Thoughts, believes, memories, experiences - mind created stuff. A built up persona that really doesn't exist. Made by labels, names, history, stories ....
So it really doesn't make any sense then looking for the self as it cannot be found as a thing or something that can be located. Still there is a strong belief of that this self as me must exist.

Have a nice day

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Thank you for your answers! You're doing great! It is possible that you're feeling somehow confused or frustrated or questioning what you're doing here, but you're going in the right direction.

Still there is a strong belief of that this self as me must exist.

If you spend some time looking to what is making this strong believe seem true, what can you find?
In other words, if you look to your experience of this belief, what is this belief made of?

At this moment, here and how, if you look, can you see that you can't see a self?
Look now. Can you see there is no self outside?

If I ask you to locate the self inside, what happens?
Can you see/imagine something inside that is a self?
Do you believe there is a place inside the body that contains a self?

Let me know what you find!

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Looking into the belief of that a self must exist reveals that it is all thought made. Sticky thoughts. That tells this is how it is. Playing with searching for the self outside, looking at everything in my outside world - it is clear as I said that there is no self to be found. Turning the looking into the "inside" there is a pause.... like a sense of don't go there... a sensation that i label as fear arises, telling that I will disolve and vanish if I take the investigation further.

It is like I identify with the awareness looking out throuht the eyes, understands through the mind, feels through the senses - that that consiousness is me. Taking it further it all becomes more hollow and uncertain. Then a thought flashes by saying that there is something here, stop or you die.

Yesterday and today I had moments of seeing the crazyness of this play of thoughts, I've been bursting out in spontaneous cascades of laughter. It all seem so comical at these moments. Irony. I can hear a vispering voice telling I am going crazy.... laughing at that voice when recognizing what it actually is. A thought of no truth. In this moment it is clear... until there is bouncing back into the default.

Your questions was very helpful, cannot express how but they gave clarity to how to investigate further. Simple. This works for me.

Grateful

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

OMG, I've got goosebumps while reading your post. Happy that you're laughing because, yes, this sure can be hilarious. And scary. And a bunch of stuff we project it to be.

Let me give you some more questions to take you out of the doubting mode and identifying with thoughts default mode.

Yes, this is simple. And there is no reason to be afraid. Take some deep breaths and notice that you're safe.

And notice what is here now.

A outside self can't be found. Can't be seen. And can't be thought into existence (you can try to think a self into existance, it's great fun!).

How about an inside self? Can this be found?

Look to the body and see what is here. What can you see?

Does the perception of the body match the thinking about the body?

Can you see two eyes? Or a space where everything is?

Can you see the back of the body?

Can you see what we imagine to be inside the body?

Is the body you?

Can a body create a real self?

Is the body a self?

Let me know what you find.

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Looking for a self "inside" the body and cannot find it anywhere. Only thing that says it is the self are the toughts and the identification thought claim over the senses. My body, I am hearing, I am seeing. If removing the tought from the ownership of this all there remains nothing. Scary. Can it be like this. What I labeled to be me, the self is nothing without the identification and beliving in thoughts.
When taking away the toughts and ownership they claim over sensations there are ONLY sensations. The mind jumps back in and says no way.... still there is a bit more taste of no me.
No self can be found in the body.

I can see different body parts, and as long as they is a labeling by the mind "my" hand, "my" leg and so on... there is a feeling of self existing in that. If no labels or thoughts that take ownership there is a meat piece with five sticks with skin on (a hand). If there is no owner, no me - there is only hand. It is no ones hand. Just hand.

I can see the tip of nose, not my eyes, not my backside and not the space that is said to surround all things inside outside. In my investigation I cannot see the inside of me. I cannot see the inner organs nor the other inner parts or fluids etc.

Does the perception of the body match the thinking about the body?

Can you please explain what you mean? I cannot see the diffrence, probably due to linguistic deficiencies.

Is the body you?

Can a body create a real self?

Is the body a self?

Is the body me? I want to say no but then there is a hesitation.
What comes up is "my body"..... and I sit with "who is then the owner of this body then?" Body is a label, "my" is a ownership label both created by thoughts. If there are no beliefs in the toughts then there is no self in the body nor is the body me... those are concepts I believe in. But some confusion around it....

Investigating if the body can create a self makes some more confusion. I feel clearly that no the body cannot create a self. But cannot see how to see it directly. Only thoughts create the self in my experience.

I will look more into this and sit with it to see what happens.

I see whenever thoughts are getting too much involved and believed in there is a confusion in mind.

Digging deeper
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Does the perception of the body match the thinking about the body?
Can you please explain what you mean? I cannot see the diffrence, probably due to linguistic deficiencies.

Ups. I also get confused when reading that question. I think I was thinking about the difference between what we can see when we look at what we label body and what we think the body is. I think you did a great job looking at that. You've noticed how the thoughts create a sense of ownership and play a role in self-identification. Well done.

I see whenever thoughts are getting too much involved and believed in there is a confusion in mind.

Yes. Absolutely. How about when thoughts aren't at front stage? When you're just looking, observing what is present as it is, are there any doubts in the experience of seeing? Or you're just seeing this as it is?

Let's say you think it's raining outside but you're not sure and then you look outside, and you can see it really is raining. Your doubts go away because you've looked to present evidence. You can have thoughts that negate the experience but the evidence that those thoughts aren't true is in front of you. You look and you can see what is going on. There is no way to deny the immediate experience, even if you start thinking that what is happing isn't happening. The thinking can't change what is happening, what is being perceived.

There is no need to change the thinking to realize if it's raining or not. Or if doubts about the experience appear. You just have to use the senses and check what is really going on. With the self it's the same. Use the senses. Have a look. And if doubts start arising have a look again. Is this thought true? If I think a self must be real, can I find any proof that a self is real when I observe what is present? Or is this just an unvestigated thought?

It seems to me that you can see the difference between thinking and looking and are struggling a bit with trusting the seeing, which is normal because we are so used to rely in the thinking to investigate and know stuff and also to maintain our view of what we think this is.

If there are no beliefs in the toughts then there is no self in the body nor is the body me... those are concepts I believe in. But some confusion around it....

Ilona has a good exercise around labeling that I suggest you do. Have a go at it and let me know how it goes for you: https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Thank you for taking time and explaining this so simply. I appreciate it a lot.

Looking more into if I can find self in the body, if the body is the self. In my investigation I cannot see anything that is the self. More often and quicker it is clear that there is no real self. Becoming more focused on just hearing, just seeing and so on it changes the identification of someone doing it, someone receiving it, a seer so to say.

For so many years I've been sure of that there is the seer, the seen and the act of seeing. Sure that I was the awareness of the act - the seer. Now it starts to occur that there was a missunderstanding, an error in that way of looking. Something missing. Something just not fully right.

Now doing my own looking and starting to trust what is actually happening, what is seen, what is here and nowhere else - a different clarity seems to show up.

With the self it's the same. Use the senses. Have a look. And if doubts start arising have a look again. Is this thought true? If I think a self must be real, can I find any proof that a self is real when I observe what is present? Or is this just an unvestigated thought?

When things are getting complicated the self, thoughts and mind are for sure invested in it. Just see, feel, hear is so clear and available all the time. This is becoming exiting and I like the play of it.
With the guidance given it is getting more clear that no self exists.

I did the practices and read the blog by Ilona. Thank you. Clear and helpful. It was so spot on to what I've been sitting with these last days. The labeling and the ownership that the created I self is given.

When looking more into this once again it is becoming more and more clear that all of what I take myself to be, the self is just a bunch of thoughts put together creating this identity. There is a feeling of softening the edges of that creation even if the creation of Sari is still there most of the time.
As i keep on returning to the practice of seeing what is actually here right now it seems as the process of recognition starting to accelerate and is driven by it self.

In gratitude
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

I've felt goose bumps again. What you write resonates to how I see this. I'm grateful for sharing this path with you.

There is a feeling of softening the edges of that creation even if the creation of Sari is still there most of the time.

Can you give me some examples, from what you see going on in your normal daily life, of how this creation seems to happen? Don't write a explanation of what you think is going on. Write a plain description of what you see when you observe what is happening. Like if you are an outside observer narrating what is going on in simple experience.

Maybe this would be easier if I direct your attention.

Move a hand. How does that happen?
Can you see a self making the hand move?

Think a thought. How does that happen?
Can you see a self thinking?
Can a thought think a thought?

Think about what you're going to eat in your next meal.
Can you see how the decision happens?
Can you find a self deciding what to eat?

If it seem a Sari is created while doing the above, how does that happen?
Can you see a real Sari being created?

Let me know how this goes.

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

I am very grateful for sharing this process with you.

One thing that comes up about softening the edges is been observed is the self-condeming voice not so harsh, there is a unvoiced and unworded understanding/knowing that it is okay. This identity is doing its best and it seems to be more okay with everyday that goes. Not believing the toughts all the time, having more space and gaps that allows a sense of bigger freedom to enter - with that there is more compassion and loving kindness towards Sari. Writing this I feel tears bubbling up and there is warmth in the heart. So many years of self-critisism, of thoughts cascading comdemning messages of how messed up this person is. Softening the edges is happening when I remember to return to what is, to be observing what is happening instead of believing the story of what is occuring, how I can change it, why it is not good enough etc.

The creation of me happens for example today when I was on my way to a joint Christmas lunch with my colleagues. I observed the mind trying to figure out how to behave, what to say, if I should be straightforward or a stay a little in the background. There was this attention and knowing of doing this before I met my colleagues, this inner dialoge of thoughts talking to other thoughts "I am saying this to this person" (these dialoges are totally useless as they are never actually happening in the outside world anyway :)

I could notice that in this role of Sari there are many layers of how things should be. That she should be respected, be listened to, she is very important. All mind created by stories upon stories.

Move a hand. How does that happen?
Can you see a self making the hand move?

This is so interesting.
When doing it I can notice two different scenarios; first is when the mind takes ownership over the action and tells the hand to move (or at least this is my interpretation of it)
Second scenario is when the action is happening without thoughs involved (or mind giving the order for the hand to move..) Then there is spontaneous movements that cannot be predicted. While in the first example the will of the mind seems to decide. It feels like I am missing out on something here....please guide me. If the mind is controlling the hand movement it means that the self is in control and that I know isn't so... It must be that it just happens and somehow the mind takes the credit for it.

I have no idea how the hand actually moves. Investigating it further.... the self wants to take the owenership of making that happen. Cannot see clearly how it isn't so...
How can something that is not really real make something move.... hmmm
The self cannot make the hand move, something else is making it move. I don't know what.

Think a thought. How does that happen?
Can you see a self thinking?
Can a thought think a thought?

Thinking a thought.
Looking around in the room. The eyes sees something that is labeled a chair. The tought chair appears in my awareness. The thought seems to arise in this investigation when it recognizes something that it has ownership over (=labeled).

Or a thought arises from "nowhere". It just seems to happen, randomly, without any specific reason. It seems to have a life of its own. Thoughts seem to happen without any explanation. I don't know.
Thoughts cannot do anything, but other thoughts seems sometimes to create a chain reaction of thought, loops of them. It is like something is triggering them to happen. Looking deeper this seems to happen when the thoughts have me in their grip. When I believe in them then they can go bananas. It is like they are fed by my attention, and they fade away when not noticed or given energy.

Think about what you're going to eat in your next meal.
Can you see how the decision happens?
Can you find a self deciding what to eat?

Thinking about what to eat; thoughts upon thoyúghts circle in the mind, there is a question arising (a thought) answered by another thought (of what "I" want to eat) This is a bit tricky. It seems like I fool myself by believing that it is the body that "wants"/needs something, but that wanting and needing are subtle thoughts disguised as the body's is saying something. Thoughts taking ownership over what "my body" needs. The body seems quiet.
This doen't make sense but there seems to be a thought deciding betweeen the option of other thoughts... what to eat?

No that isn't right. A self cannot decide anything, it is just happening! Wow... don't know what to make out of this. How can things just happen. Total new unknown. Feeling a bit uncomfortable and curious at the same time.

If it seem a Sari is created while doing the above, how does that happen?
Can you see a real Sari being created?

There is a belief that it is the self/Sari that is making, taking and having control of what is happening. The identity made of thoughts claims ownership of these acts and says it is Sari who is in charge. The thoughts are believed this is how it happnens. They are not quetioned. They have been King on the throne.
I cannot see a real Sari being created. There is no such a thing.

Sorry for the super long post. I was investigating and looking at the same time as writing. A messy process :)

Thank you
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Sorry for the super long post. I was investigating and looking at the same time as writing. A messy process :)

That's ok! I think I gave you too much to chew in one bite. Sometimes I get carried away. You did great.
I suppose English isn't your mother tongue? It isn't mine but it's a plaisant language to use.

It seems to me that you saw what I was pointing at, and then thoughts kicked in and doubts appeared. That's how the illusion works, it seems. It's created by thoughts.

Happy to know you feel that you are traveling lighter, when seeing happens. This may change. Sometimes being aware of what is going on can also be very raw and unpleasant. I suppose that's why some people keep inquiring after the self illusion drops.

This is so interesting.
When doing it I can notice two different scenarios; first is when the mind takes ownership over the action and tells the hand to move (or at least this is my interpretation of it)

Yes, that's a wonderful exercise. Regarding this first scenario, look again.

Notice if you can see this mind you've wrote about.
When you look, can you see mind? Is mind real?

Move a hand.

Can you see a self choosing which hand to move? Can you see a chooser?

Can you see thoughts choosing which hand to move? Can you see a thinker?

Now think about moving your hand and don't move the hand. If thoughts were the reason for the hand to move, shouldn't the hand always be moving when you think it should be moving?

Move the hand again and observe.
What can you see making the hand move? Can you find any evidence that the hand is moving because there is a self here/now causing the movement? Can you see a self when you look to the hand, while it's moving or not moving?

Let me know how this goes.

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

As you mentioned English is not my native language. Usually when I write in English I use google translate or some spelling program but this time I just wanted things to flow as they come up without any editing, corrections etc. I know there are a lot of misspellings and using the language in a non correct way. Let me know if you cannot make sense of what I am expressing :) i guess you are good at reading between the lines....

Sometimes being aware of what is going on can also be very raw and unpleasant.

Absolutely, I have been experiencing this many times and during longer periods. It is not always shiny happy and light. Most of the it is not...
The other day I faced a part of my being that was really tough to acknowledge and give space. It was around seeing the pattern of victimhood I play and how much shame there is connected to that. The most challenging part was allowing the shame to be there, or at least accept that it was there and it wasn't going anywhere without been seen. Experiencing that nothing needed to actually change, just be seen and allowed to exist.

Notice if you can see this mind you've wrote about.
When you look, can you see mind? Is mind real?

So many assumptions here. The mind cannot be seen, neither experienced. I cannot see WHAT is experiencing. Mind is a construction/assumption, a belief, a label.

Moving a hand. I cannot see a choser, nor a self chosing to move a hand. Neither can I observe any thought that is choosing. What comes up is a thought wondering what is chosing then... A thinker cannot be observed. A thought says then, surely there must be something....

Now think about moving your hand and don't move the hand. If thoughts were the reason for the hand to move, shouldn't the hand always be moving when you think it should be moving?

Yes and no, it feels like there is a subtle thought underneath the thinking of moving the hand, and then not doing it. This is not clear seeing.
There is a thought that I am not clever enough of seeing this. That the mind is not capable of seeing the processes happening and it should be.

What can you see making the hand move? Can you find any evidence that the hand is moving because there is a self here/now causing the movement? Can you see a self when you look to the hand, while it's moving or not moving?

Oh I find this tricky.
Only thing I can see is that I cannot find a self looking at the hand moving or not. No direct evidence that the hand is moving because there is a self causing the movement. Once the hand starts moving there are no thoughts/self involved but I am not sure about the choise itself - and what I can see that makes the hand move.

Be well
Sari

[Canfora]

Hi Sari! Thank you for your honest answers.

As you mentioned English is not my native language. Usually when I write in English I use google translate or some spelling program but this time I just wanted things to flow as they come up without any editing, corrections etc. I know there are a lot of misspellings and using the language in a non correct way. Let me know if you cannot make sense of what I am expressing :) i guess you are good at reading between the lines....

I also use google translate and so on. Sometimes in these conversations a adjustment period around language is needed. I think that wasn't necessary in our conversation yet. I don't have any problem understanding what you're writing about (including your last flowy post). So feel free to let it flow if it feels like the thing to do. If I have doubts about what you're saying I will ask questions.

Absolutely, I have been experiencing this many times and during longer periods. It is not always shiny happy and light. Most of the it is not...
The other day I faced a part of my being that was really tough to acknowledge and give space. It was around seeing the pattern of victimhood I play and how much shame there is connected to that. The most challenging part was allowing the shame to be there, or at least accept that it was there and it wasn't going anywhere without been seen. Experiencing that nothing needed to actually change, just be seen and allowed to exist.

How nice, you're doing trauma work. Me too.

There is a thought that I am not clever enough of seeing this. That the mind is not capable of seeing the processes happening and it should be.

Oh... it seems there is an underlying assumption that mind/thinking can see what is going on?
Can thoughts see or can you see thoughts? :)

I would like you to read what Ilona wrote about Thinking: https://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012 ... nking.html

After reading that text and looking at the thinking for a while, let me know what is happening at the moment, in the thinking, that makes you believe that a self is real. In other words, what kind of thoughts are making you believe a self exists? Which arguments is the mind using? If it feels ok, make a list of those arguments.

Take care,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Thank you for your reflections. I just read your post and the blog by Ilona. I will read it again and dive deeper into what you asked me to do.
Today I've been really tired. Falling a sleep while sitting. It feels like this investigation is absorbing energy.
I am working 13 hours tomorrow so wont be able to post. I'll be back Friday for deeper investigation again. I hope this is fine.

Spent my day with watching my hands. Keeping one hand in front of me and looking at it. Experimenting with if I can see something else than a thought telling it to move or not. Nothing moves unless there is somekind of decision to move the hand. I cannot see that it is anything else than a thought. I've been sitting with the hand in front of me for long periods but nothing gets clarified or clearer... During my walk I tried to be observant of what made the body move, stop moving etc. I cannot see that thoughts are not involved. I will continue this practice and see what happens, if anything changes in perception.

Oh... it seems there is an underlying assumption that mind/thinking can see what is going on?
Can thoughts see or can you see thoughts? :)

I can see thoughts, thoughts cannot see. And you are probably right that there is this assumption that mind/thinking can see what is going on. Looking at it now it seems pretty clear that thinking cannot see what is going on. Thoughts are reflections, constructions and there is no awareness in them. They are like empty air, mirrors.
Even though there is a forgettfulness of them not being real.
Like a road that has been walked many times and is very familiar..... and feels safe... :)

with love
S

[Canfora]

Hi Sari!

Thank you for your reflections. I just read your post and the blog by Ilona. I will read it again and dive deeper into what you asked me to do.
Today I've been really tired. Falling a sleep while sitting. It feels like this investigation is absorbing energy.
I am working 13 hours tomorrow so wont be able to post. I'll be back Friday for deeper investigation again. I hope this is fine.

Of course it's fine is, there is no need to rush!

I can see thoughts, thoughts cannot see. And you are probably right that there is this assumption that mind/thinking can see what is going on. Looking at it now it seems pretty clear that thinking cannot see what is going on. Thoughts are reflections, constructions and there is no awareness in them. They are like empty air, mirrors.
Even though there is a forgettfulness of them not being real.
Like a road that has been walked many times and is very familiar..... and feels safe... :)

Yes :)

I will wait for your next post. If needed rest for a while. Resting may be helpful, there is no need to get overwhelmed.

Take care of yourself,
S

[Gingerbella]

Hi Sandra,

Thank you for your kindness. This has become so important to me, and also one of the reasons I decided to move on from some of the teachers I used to study with. The harshness made me close down. I see how important the loving kindness is for this process to evolve and deepen. I am grateful for being shown this.

Reading the blog was spot on and very much needed to see that I've been tying to reject, resist and judge thoughts as bad. Recently starting to see how much tension this created and even more resistance. A fools game that never lead to less thoughts nor calmer mind. It is a welcoming feeling to have the other way around approach and actually tell them that they can be there and they are accepted as they are. Puh! I mean why not?

After reading that text and looking at the thinking for a while, let me know what is happening at the moment, in the thinking, that makes you believe that a self is real. In other words, what kind of thoughts are making you believe a self exists? Which arguments is the mind using? If it feels ok, make a list of those arguments.

I wrote a list of things and then deleted it. It didn't make sense after reading it. Now sitting looking at the screan not knowing what to write.
Nothing seems to want to be expressed. Notivcing I cannot make a list of the doubts because when looking at them I see that they are only labels of confusion and thoughts added to a happening.

Still I haven't seen how what is happening is not caused by the self. Only by logic can I understand that this is not possible as the self is only an illusion.

Returning to my hands moving over the screan... writing this - I cannot distinguish what is making the operation working if not the self. So I am watching the hands.... nothing comes to clarity.

Today there has been a sensation of being a bit disconnected from the body. Not in an airy way, more like in a non existing way. Cannot explain it properly.

With love
S