The Gate

In reality could any words capture THIS WHOLE?

No, I see this now. All words are contained within the whole so they cannot be outside of the whole to capture it or say what it is. Something that is contained in the whole cannot describe the whole.

Re the feeling of separation. Great work paying attention. Now please look more. Can you find anything in direct feeling/sensation that says it is "separation"?

No. There are just feelings and sensations but they don't say anything about separation. The feeling of tension in the body is just the feeling of tension in the body. It does not say separation. It just says there is an uncomfortable feeling in the body. Actually, there is just a feeling in the body. The thoughts say it is uncomfortable or bad or I don't want to feel this. The sensation of butt on chair does not say there is separation. It's just a sensation. I am aware of all the feelings and sensations in the body.

If not, is there anything in the feeling/sensation that actually necessitates the belief in separation, except the automatic habit of thinking thoughts that says so, beliefs?

No, there does not need to be separation for a sensation to arise. I don't know what is causing me to still think there is separation and not have this thing click. I can see that thoughts and labelling is what makes things seem separate but I can't just go around without thoughts as I can't even control when thoughts come. Even after I just wrote that last sentence I could feel the tension in the chest when I wrote about this not clicking.

Marta, much clarity here, it's a pleasure to read. Here are some more things to clarify:


"No. There are just feelings and sensations but they don't say anything about separation. The feeling of tension in the body is just the feeling of tension in the body. It does not say separation. It just says there is an uncomfortable feeling in the body. Actually, there is just a feeling in the body. The thoughts say it is uncomfortable or bad or I don't want to feel this. The sensation of butt on chair does not say there is separation. It's just a sensation."

Exactly.

"I am aware of all the feelings and sensations in the body."

In direct experience are the sensations "in the body"? And is there a "you" experiencing it or is that just a thought, a label?


" If not, is there anything in the feeling/sensation that actually necessitates the belief in separation, except the automatic habit of thinking thoughts that says so, beliefs?[/quote]
No, there does not need to be separation for a sensation to arise."

Right and you are seeing if I get you right that the interpretation of sensation is not inherent or true, just habit. Is that right?

And in that case, do you need to understand why these unreal interpretations are there or make them go away, in order to realize that the separation is illusion? Do you need to understand why the idea of Santa Claus was created or get rid of thoughts of Santa in order to see Santa is not real, not in real direct experience? Or is it enough just to see it's a fantasy?

"I don't know what is causing me to still think there is separation and not have this thing click. "

Is there anything in direct experience that tells you it has not clicked? Just because we can imagine Santa doesn't mean we are deluded and think he exists. Thoughts of Santa are welcome as long as we don't think they are reality, same with thoughts of separation and thoughts of not being there.


"I can see that thoughts and labelling is what makes things seem separate but I can't just go around without thoughts as I can't even control when thoughts come."

Exactly!!! Are there any separate self or doer that can control when thoughts arrive and dissolve and what they are? If not, are these involuntary thoughts without a thinker in any way indicators of separation?


"Even after I just wrote that last sentence I could feel the tension in the chest when I wrote about this not clicking."

This might be a good sign. Sometimes we react to lies with discomfort and to understanding and alignment with truth with peace. Spend a little time with that and see what you see.

"I am aware of all the feelings and sensations in the body."

In direct experience are the sensations "in the body"? And is there a "you" experiencing it or is that just a thought, a label?

I was looking again and no, they are not in the body. There is nothing in the body. I can see now that the sense of separation is that there is some sort of outline or border to the body but when I look with my attention there is nothing there. It is just empty space. There is no border to the body. The border is a thought. Not a thought like “there is a border around the body” but a more subtle thought or an image of there being a border, like an energetic border thought. It is the same with the objects in the room. When I look at the cup there is a subtle thought of there being a border around it. Of course when I go in to look for the border it is not there. There are no borders around anything in the room or around the body, it is just space. While I am doing this investigation thoughts were going crazy and narrating everything I am doing with the looking process x100 and it seemed like the same thought was repeating over and over again and on the highest volume possible. I have heard people use the term “being stuck in a thought loop” before and I never knew what that meant until now. I am still a little unclear about the "you" part. I mean there is something here, there is experience happening. But I do see that the word "you" is just a word or thought. Sorry if this is a little jumbled as I feel a little lightheaded and disoriented right now after seeing there is no border around the body.

the interpretation of sensation is not inherent or true, just habit. Is that right?

I am reading this sentence but for some reason I am having a hard time thinking / understanding it. They are just sensation. Thought labels the sensation as being something but it's really nothing.

Is there anything in direct experience that tells you it has not clicked? Just because we can imagine Santa doesn't mean we are deluded and think he exists. Thoughts of Santa are welcome as long as we don't think they are reality, same with thoughts of separation and thoughts of not being there.

I can read this sentence and I know it's not a long or complicated sentence but for some reason I am having a hard time understanding what it means and it feels like so much effort to try and understand it.

Sorry Elad, I think I need to answer to rest of your post later. My thinking process feels a little off right now. It's 11am here, I will try to come back and answer the rest later this evening or tomorrow morning.

"I am aware of all the feelings and sensations in the body."

In direct experience are the sensations "in the body"? And is there a "you" experiencing it or is that just a thought, a label?

I was looking again and no, they are not in the body. There is nothing in the body. I can see now that the sense of separation is that there is some sort of outline or border to the body but when I look with my attention there is nothing there. It is just empty space. There is no border to the body. The border is a thought. Not a thought like “there is a border around the body” but a more subtle thought or an image of there being a border, like an energetic border thought. It is the same with the objects in the room. When I look at the cup there is a subtle thought of there being a border around it. Of course when I go in to look for the border it is not there. There are no borders around anything in the room or around the body, it is just space. While I am doing this investigation thoughts were going crazy and narrating everything I am doing with the looking process x100 and it seemed like the same thought was repeating over and over again and on the highest volume possible. I have heard people use the term “being stuck in a thought loop” before and I never knew what that meant until now. I am still a little unclear about the "you" part. I mean there is something here, there is experience happening. But I do see that the word "you" is just a word or thought. Sorry if this is a little jumbled as I feel a little lightheaded and disoriented right now after seeing there is no border around the body.

the interpretation of sensation is not inherent or true, just habit. Is that right?

I am reading this sentence but for some reason I am having a hard time thinking / understanding it. They are just sensation. Thought labels the sensation as being something but it's really nothing.

Is there anything in direct experience that tells you it has not clicked? Just because we can imagine Santa doesn't mean we are deluded and think he exists. Thoughts of Santa are welcome as long as we don't think they are reality, same with thoughts of separation and thoughts of not being there.

I can read this sentence and I know it's not a long or complicated sentence but for some reason I am having a hard time understanding what it means and it feels like so much effort to try and understand it.

Sorry Elad, I think I need to answer to rest of your post later. My thinking process feels a little off right now. It's 11am here, I will try to come back and answer the rest later this evening or tomorrow morning.

You are doing well Marta, lots of real attending. Give it all some more time, rest, look, and write more.

Thanks Elad.

Okay, let me try this again.

"I am aware of all the feelings and sensations in the body."

In direct experience are the sensations "in the body"? And is there a "you" experiencing it or is that just a thought, a label?

No, the sensations are not in the body. I saw clearly this morning that the body is just empty with no boundaries so nothing can be in the body. Right now I am looking and I still cannot find a boundary to the body. Interestingly, when I close my eyes I could not even say there is a body. I would have to use thought to say there is a body there when all I see is blackness. "Me" experiencing is also just a lablel / thought. The body uses the word Me to talk about itself but that is all it's referring to. It's just language.

The only issue I'm having with this is if I am truly seeing this clearly, shouldn't there be a more startled reaction or some fear. There really is none of that. When I saw everything is without boundaries earlier there was some disorientation and maybe dizziness but nothing even close to fear or any strong emotion at all...sort of like I knew all this already. This is making me question how clearly I am actually seeing all of this and if I am deluding myself.

you are seeing if I get you right that the interpretation of sensation is not inherent or true, just habit. Is that right?

Yes, just because there are sensations in the body or feelings in the body, that doesn't mean separation. I am just used to thinking it means that.

And in that case, do you need to understand why these unreal interpretations are there or make them go away, in order to realize that the separation is illusion? Do you need to understand why the idea of Santa Claus was created or get rid of thoughts of Santa in order to see Santa is not real, not in real direct experience? Or is it enough just to see it's a fantasy?

No I don't need to understand. I just need to see one time that Santa is not real - when I found my presents in my parents' closet when I was a kid - and then I just knew. Even if I have thoughts about Santa that doesn't mean he is real. Once you know, you just know. I could think about Santa all day but I will never think he is real again.

Is there anything in direct experience that tells you it has not clicked? Just because we can imagine Santa doesn't mean we are deluded and think he exists. Thoughts of Santa are welcome as long as we don't think they are reality, same with thoughts of separation and thoughts of not being there.

No there are just thoughts about it not clicking, or, as I mentioned above, thoughts about there should be some fear or more of a strong emotional reaction in the body.

Are there any separate self or doer that can control when thoughts arrive and dissolve and what they are? If not, are these involuntary thoughts without a thinker in any way indicators of separation?

Right, there have been so many thoughts today about this process and narrating what is happening every second but there is no thinker behind those thoughts. I am thinking is just another thought and the "I" part is not referring to anything, it's just another thought. Even now thoughts are coming in narrating what is happening. Thoughts coming and going do not say that anything is separate it's just another thing that's happening. Sitting on a chair, typing, thoughts about sitting on a chair and typing.

Thanks Elad.

Okay, let me try this again.

"I am aware of all the feelings and sensations in the body."

In direct experience are the sensations "in the body"? And is there a "you" experiencing it or is that just a thought, a label?

No, the sensations are not in the body. I saw clearly this morning that the body is just empty with no boundaries so nothing can be in the body. Right now I am looking and I still cannot find a boundary to the body. Interestingly, when I close my eyes I could not even say there is a body. I would have to use thought to say there is a body there when all I see is blackness. "Me" experiencing is also just a lablel / thought. The body uses the word Me to talk about itself but that is all it's referring to. It's just language.

The only issue I'm having with this is if I am truly seeing this clearly, shouldn't there be a more startled reaction or some fear. There really is none of that. When I saw everything is without boundaries earlier there was some disorientation and maybe dizziness but nothing even close to fear or any strong emotion at all...sort of like I knew all this already. This is making me question how clearly I am actually seeing all of this and if I am deluding myself.

you are seeing if I get you right that the interpretation of sensation is not inherent or true, just habit. Is that right?

Yes, just because there are sensations in the body or feelings in the body, that doesn't mean separation. I am just used to thinking it means that.

And in that case, do you need to understand why these unreal interpretations are there or make them go away, in order to realize that the separation is illusion? Do you need to understand why the idea of Santa Claus was created or get rid of thoughts of Santa in order to see Santa is not real, not in real direct experience? Or is it enough just to see it's a fantasy?

No I don't need to understand. I just need to see one time that Santa is not real - when I found my presents in my parents' closet when I was a kid - and then I just knew. Even if I have thoughts about Santa that doesn't mean he is real. Once you know, you just know. I could think about Santa all day but I will never think he is real again.

Is there anything in direct experience that tells you it has not clicked? Just because we can imagine Santa doesn't mean we are deluded and think he exists. Thoughts of Santa are welcome as long as we don't think they are reality, same with thoughts of separation and thoughts of not being there.

No there are just thoughts about it not clicking, or, as I mentioned above, thoughts about there should be some fear or more of a strong emotional reaction in the body.

Are there any separate self or doer that can control when thoughts arrive and dissolve and what they are? If not, are these involuntary thoughts without a thinker in any way indicators of separation?

Right, there have been so many thoughts today about this process and narrating what is happening every second but there is no thinker behind those thoughts. I am thinking is just another thought and the "I" part is not referring to anything, it's just another thought. Even now thoughts are coming in narrating what is happening. Thoughts coming and going do not say that anything is separate it's just another thing that's happening. Sitting on a chair, typing, thoughts about sitting on a chair and typing.

Beautiful, very clear. While fear come for some it's not universal. Can you see any expectation about how this should be could never be reality, only a story, at best helpful sometimes, never universally helpful or ultimately true? Can any concept or pointer be the reality?

Please now look at so-called free will, intention and choice. What is that? Is there a real chooser or doer?

Can you see any expectation about how this should be could never be reality, only a story, at best helpful sometimes, never universally helpful or ultimately true? Can any concept or pointer be the reality?

Yes any expectation would just be a thought and when I hear other people describe it, those are just words, it's not the actual truth of what they are seeing. No concept or pointer could be the reality because all concepts / pointers are in reality and made up of reality so they can't actually point to it.

Please now look at so-called free will, intention and choice. What is that? Is there a real chooser or doer?

If I start with my hand moving left to right, I don't know how I am actually doing that. I mean If I turn to science I could say it's because of brain signals or something, but I don't even understand the science of it and that would just be a story anyways. If I look in direct experience I see my hand moving left to right and I don't actually know how that is happening or how I am making that happen - it is just happening is all I can say about it without going into thought.

Choice is also thought. If I am sitting on the couch and my stomach starts to grumble, then there is a thought of I am hungry and then the body walks to the fridge. I didn't choose to make my stomach grumble, I didn't choose to make the thought come and I can't say that I chose to make the body walk to the fridge.

Free will appears to just be an idea or words that point to the idea that we have control over our actions. Something like an after thought. In direct experience there is just this body that is doing stuff with thoughts narrating everything it is doing. If the body does something and a thought comes in and says "I shouldn't have done that, I should have done this instead" - that is where the idea of free-will comes from.

So intention, free-will and choice are just ideas.

[quote=Marta40 post_id=378587 time=1698420369 user_id=15643]
[quote] Can you see any expectation about how this should be could never be reality, only a story, at best helpful sometimes, never universally helpful or ultimately true? Can any concept or pointer be the reality?[/quote]
Yes any expectation would just be a thought and when I hear other people describe it, those are just words, it's not the actual truth of what they are seeing. No concept or pointer could be the reality because all concepts / pointers are in reality and made up of reality so they can't actually point to it.

[quote]Please now look at so-called free will, intention and choice. What is that? Is there a real chooser or doer?[/quote]
If I start with my hand moving left to right, I don't know how I am actually doing that. I mean If I turn to science I could say it's because of brain signals or something, but I don't even understand the science of it and that would just be a story anyways. If I look in direct experience I see my hand moving left to right and I don't actually know how that is happening or how I am making that happen - it is just happening is all I can say about it without going into thought.

Choice is also thought. If I am sitting on the couch and my stomach starts to grumble, then there is a thought of I am hungry and then the body walks to the fridge. I didn't choose to make my stomach grumble, I didn't choose to make the thought come and I can't say that I chose to make the body walk to the fridge.

Free will appears to just be an idea or words that point to the idea that we have control over our actions. Something like an after thought. In direct experience there is just this body that is doing stuff with thoughts narrating everything it is doing. If the body does something and a thought comes in and says "I shouldn't have done that, I should have done this instead" - that is where the idea of free-will comes from.

So intention, free-will and choice are just ideas.
[/quote]

Yes! :) So, would you say there is a seeing through the illusion of a separate self? Any doubts, questions, things you want support looking into?

Was there ever a real separate Marta?

So, would you say there is a seeing through the illusion of a separate self?

No I don't think I have seen through it as nothing has changed. When I see videos of people that have had this seeing (even videos of people from LU) they always have this relaxed smile on their faces and are looking around the room in amazement and wow. That hasn't happened here. Is this something that takes a few weeks or months to sink it? It doesn't feel like I am done. I do realize that I am comparing in thoughts but I mean there has to be something...some sort of recognition moment, there can't just be nothing. This isn't even just a thought as when I watch these vidoes or read these posts there is clearly some sort of change or shift. There is a huge feeling of disappointment right now if this is it.

So, would you say there is a seeing through the illusion of a separate self?

No I don't think I have seen through it as nothing has changed. When I see videos of people that have had this seeing (even videos of people from LU) they always have this relaxed smile on their faces and are looking around the room in amazement and wow. That hasn't happened here. Is this something that takes a few weeks or months to sink it? It doesn't feel like I am done. I do realize that I am comparing in thoughts but I mean there has to be something...some sort of recognition moment, there can't just be nothing. This isn't even just a thought as when I watch these vidoes or read these posts there is clearly some sort of change or shift. There is a huge feeling of disappointment right now if this is it.

Stay with the disappointment. Sometimes disappointment over unfulfilled fantasies is the strongest initial reaction to seeing. Allow for it, invite it, give it your full loving attention for as long as it's there, then write me more on what is seen/felt/experienced.

And also answer the other questions. But take some time with the feeling of disappointed dreams first.

Oh: and we are in no hurry. We have all the time until it's clear to you the seeing is there and no questions/wishes for support .

Stay with the disappointment. Sometimes disappointment over unfulfilled fantasies is the strongest initial reaction to seeing. Allow for it, invite it, give it your full loving attention for as long as it's there, then write me more on what is seen/felt/experienced.

After sitting with the disappointment…I have just been balling my eyes out for the past hour. I’m so heartbroken and disappointed. There is a feeling of being ripped off and wasting the past almost 4 years of my life. I’ve lost so much – all of my friends, my hobbies, my interest, my looks just over this stupid non-duality awakening thing. And all for nothing. I didn’t even get any glimpse or awakening experiences, no merging with oneness or being in awareness. I see now that I had all of these expectations. I don’t even know what I was doing that whole time, I was stuck in some weird non-duality thought world. This just feels so soul-crushing. Thoughts were saying that I was doing something but I wasn’t doing anything. I didn’t want to admit it to myself but I had so many expectations of what awakening was and even that last expectation that it was going to be a loss, not a gain. I didn’t even lose anything. It’s just nothing. It’s like someone has been playing a cruel joke on me. Is there even such a thing as non-duality...I feel like I have been in some weird dream.

Was there ever a real separate Marta?

No, it's just a name. Marta is just the name of my body. Every body has it's own name.

So, would you say there is a seeing through the illusion of a separate self?

Yes.

Any doubts, questions, things you want support looking into?

I don't know yet. This is all just so fresh and so shocking. This is not what I thought we were talking about at all. I thought this had something to do with spirituality but it's nothing to do with that....I just can't stop crying. Is this why people cry on the videos. I just need to take a day...I'll write again tomorrow if that's okay. Thank you.

Hi Elad!!!!!!!!
I just had to write an update further to my previous message. After I wrote it I went downstairs to cut some vegetables and all of a sudden the tears of heartbreak and disappointment turned into uncontrollable laughter. The cruel joke is now the beautiful joke!! There is so much gratitude and joy. I feel like the weight of a million worlds has been lifted off my shoulders. I can't stop crying (in a good way now). I have so much energy I feel like I could run a marathon. There is so much energy in my body I feel like I am going to explode (in a good way). I don't even know what's going on. I just feel so happy. I haven't felt happiness in so long I totally forgot what it felt like. This is what happiness feels like!! I didn't even know I was unhappy!! There is just so much release and crying, I don't know what is going on. I have never had this much energy in my life! There is just so much energy!! I don't know what happened - this is all very confusing but oh my god thank you so much! I will write again tomorrow when I hopefully calm down LOL...I just wanted to give an update! T

Yes!! 🥰♥️🌷