Thanks for existing

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan, I have this morning and afternoon off so I was able to spend a few hours on your questions

Can you see how the word "shape" is already a concept, a label that describes or is simply an interpretation of an "arrangement" of colors?

Yes, I can see that shapes are a product of consciously discriminating what I see into labels.

What happens in this experiencing?

Initially, my eyes were drawn to certain areas on the cup which the mind labeled as contrast. I turned the cup to a different side and focused on taking it all in. Noticed a subtle texturing that I hadn’t consciously perceived before. Some time passed and I noticed my mind quiet down the more I was absorbed in the colors. Eventually, it stopped being a cup to me and the hands holding it began to slip away from being hands. Notably even an hour afterwards, the cup doesn’t feel like as much of a cup anymore.

Can what is seen be in any way accurately described?

No, it feels futile and tiring to even try

Are there thoughts labeling what you see? A handle perhaps, the lip, the shape of it?

Sometimes, yes. There’s been thoughts labeling the shape as a cylinder, labeling of the brightness on some portions as light, and labeling a portion as a rim that is shiny and metallic.

Is there any distinction between seeing, looking and noticing for you?

Yes, though sometimes they’ve blended. Seeing seems to always be happening, and involves no conscious effort.

Looking feels like seeing with effort, and sometimes involves labeling what I see then matching those labels with an idea in my head. If I look for squares in the room, I will begin to see squares.

Noticing feels like a passive process. It kinda just happens.

When I first saw the texture, I felt like seeing, looking, and noticing were one.

Can you find some specific thing that we can call a "me" doing the seeing?

No, seeing is just happening

Watch thoughts as you consider who is seeing. Notice what happens to seeing as you consider this. Did the seeing change in any way or stop?

It remained constant the entire time.

After a while of watching thoughts, what happens to them?

They seem dim and alone. They constantly appear and fade but eventually don’t go anywhere or develop further.

As you watch the thoughts does the experience of seeing the cup change in any way?

Yes, towards the end the cup once again did not seem like a cup anymore. Everything that was seen was still seen but it felt more-effortless and the surroundings became more visible

What happens in your experience as you attend to the spaces?

Seeing feel more uninhibited and clear, it looks the same but different. There was a moment for only a few seconds where the space widened, and I felt a lurch of peace and bliss in my head sorta like the feeling in your stomach when you go down the first hill of a rollarcoaster. My experience feels quieter and more relaxed during the gaps.

As this seeing is happening, ask yourself "Is there a seer or a seen within or without the seeing?"

Within the seeing, there is no seer, there’s just seeing. Nor is there a seen, there’s just seeing. The “cup” I’ve been looking at this entire time is just seeing. Without the seeing, how could I know? I’m just seeing.

Or is there only seeing?

There’s only seeing and it seems abundantly clear, every time I’ve felt doubt it (and that’s been at least 10 times in the past 5 minutes) I just take a look.

Now do this with a flower (or any other object) and see what is experienced. Let me know what stands out for you.

Used it with what we call a wallet. There’s a recognition of my associations with it such as purpose and contents, and that’s all in the context of what it actually is as seeing/sense. It’s easier to notice details/it seems more detailed than usual- the attention feels cheap. There’s some hiccups w/saying it’s merely seeing in my head instead of seeing it as seeing, but that seems temporary so far.

Thank you for all of this, your questions have been a tremendous help

Jerry

[Alless]

There is joy here as I read your post Jerry.

What you report is very clear seeing. Your fidelity to direct experience is very refreshing and is the key to this exploration.

Seeing feel more uninhibited and clear, it looks the same but different.

This is part of the mystery when you say "it looks the same but different" Beautiful. 😊 Everything is the same but different when we become aware of the subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) default of experiencing life through "thinking about" which is a proxy for experiencing directly.

Consider compassion or love for instance. We often are convinced that we experience love. However if we really are aware of what is happening, when people speak of love, they are typically attending to thoughts and images about love rather than allowing love to pervade their being.
How does the truth of that feel to you Jerry?

There’s only seeing and it seems abundantly clear, every time I’ve felt doubt it (and that’s been at least 10 times in the past 5 minutes) I just take a look.

You have described so beautifully the antidote to doubt ! Simply look ! And (you may have done this already) take a look at what this doubt actually is.
Is it not simply a thought that when recognized simply fades as we look at it?




I could comment on so much of what you write Jerry. However as I am just soaking it in and since there is nothing that I feel I can add to, I sense that we can move on. We'll go back to what you reported on the green / red exercise

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN', what is your actual experience?

Seeing red lines, and a feeling of confusion with a very mild headache. Looking at it long enough, the word itself looks uncanny and unreal.

You are seeing green, right? Or as you look at the word green are you actually seeing red but believing the minds interpretation of the word green?

I’m seeing red and the minds eye has an image of green when the thought of green comes up, but the redness remains the same. I can clearly see it’s red but the fact that the redness is arranged in such a way that I think of a color I do not associate with red when I look at it makes my eyes hurt.

My take on what you say here is what this exercise tries to demonstrate. It demonstrates the confusion that is experienced when there is conflict between actual experience and what the mind interprets as the truth. Reading the words claims our attention even when they contradict what is actually being experienced. And you say it so well here ...

The word green appears as a label that overlays any experience of color.

And you so rightly say.....

The labels have no effect on reality.

And yet in the conventional world it is the labels (thoughts, stories, concepts) that are believed. No wonder there is suffering !


So let’s take this a step further.

In the light of what has now been seen......... here is a sentence from the Label-Reality Correlation exercise again

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?



Just this simple exercise for today.


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

How does the truth of that feel to you Jerry?

It resonates, and the truth of it feels directly experienced.

Is it not simply a thought that when recognized simply fades as we look at it?

It is just a thought, and it always fades. What’s here stays, and thought itself may not fade but its form certainly does.

As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?

Seeing, that’s it. Thoughts and labels of color and words will come up but those just feel like thoughts and labels.

Jerry

[Alless]

Hello Jerry,

What’s here stays, and thought itself may not fade

Can you tell me a little more of what you're pointing to here Jerry?

Seeing, that’s it. Thoughts and labels of color and words will come up but those just feel like thoughts and labels.

Let's take this "SEEING what is" a little further.

For ease of reference here is the sentence again

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggest?

As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?




So, looking at the sentence again what do you actually SEE? What is directly seen here is red, black and white is it not? It can actually feel like a trick question because while it's such a simple exercise, it can powerfully demonstrate how quickly thoughts can sabotage and hypnotize

As a side note (and you may have experienced this already) if you show someone the page of any book and ask them what they see, invariably they will say something like words or letters. Rarely does anyone say "I see the white of the page." And yet the white is what takes up most of the page and we could not read the words without it!

And I'll ask you to look again because in fact what we really notice when we are looking at the sentence in this exercise, we also see blue (the color of the text in the question) even though we are not focusing on it per say, it is still seen.

Now hold your gaze on the sentence again and without moving your eyes or your head.
Are you not also aware of the oranges, greys, blacks of the LU website background behind the white text panel?




Now again without moving your eyes or head let your gaze soften even more and notice your peripheral vision.
Can you see more colors which are part of your computer screen and out into the room where you are?




Take a couple of minutes with a really soft gaze to simply notice all that is seen in this moment.
How would you describe what you are experiencing? As you let your gaze soften and your eyes de-focus even slightly, what happens to thoughts?




What happens to alertness?




Watch what happens ATTENTION as you move between SEEING, LOOKING and NOTICING.
Anything in particular to report here?




Now let’s remind ourselves what this exploration is all about. It's to look for the “me.”
So right now can any specific thing that we could label the “me” be found?




Now, turn your attention to the SEEING ITSELF as you LOOK.

Can you find a specific place from which it arises?




As you continue to look can you find a “me” that is in control of the SEEING?




Can you choose to stop SEEING?




While what we are LOOKING AT is continually changing does the SEEING ITSELF change in any way?





So if you can take a few moments now and again throughout the day explore the SEEING that is happening with these questions in mind and tell me anything else about your DIRECT EXPERIENCE that you are noticing




Being aware of the qualities of this SEEING “capacity” plays such a vital role in this investigation.

And have some fun with all this !!



Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Can you tell me a little more of what you're pointing to here Jerry?

The first part was about how regardless of any thoughts of doubt, the direct experience of seeing remains the same, there’s a prevailing feeling that what’s been seen cannot be unseen. Looking at it today, I didn’t word the thought part entirely accurately. I’ll rephrase it to “thought itself may not fade for good”. I look at thought and it comes and goes, but it hasn’t disappeared forever (and I don’t expect it to, I’ve just observed it hasn’t).

As you LOOK at the sentence above and without any reference to thought, what is actually SEEN? What is your Actual Experience here?

Ahhh, now I see what you’re getting at. Yes I do see black, whitish-orange (screen has warm light turned on), pale orange, red, and blue. In the peripheral I see purple, tan, sky blue, and grey with all of these colors in different shades.

Are you not also aware of the oranges, greys, blacks of the LU website background behind the white text panel?

I’m on my phone so that doesn’t show, but I am aware of the quote colors nearby.

Can you see more colors which are part of your computer screen and out into the room where you are?

Yes, too many to describe

How would you describe what you are experiencing? As you let your gaze soften and your eyes de-focus even slightly, what happens to thoughts?

It’s immediate, spacious, there’s color but it’s seldomly labeled. It feels nearly timeless, 25 minutes passed without it feeling like a long or short time, and then another 10 passed when I went back in to verify some details. It feels difficult to describe as it is. Feelings of relaxation and peace is experienced. Occasionally the eyes flicker around in a small area since they’re not focused on anything.

What happens to alertness?

Alertness feels more present, there’s more sensations in terms of sights, body feelings, and sounds. The alertness is also not tinged with anticipation or anxiety.

Watch what happens ATTENTION as you move between SEEING, LOOKING and NOTICING.
Anything in particular to report here?

Attention seems to move as I switch between those modes. I’m seeing, then I’m looking around and my attention will move into what I notice.

Now let’s remind ourselves what this exploration is all about. It's to look for the “me.”
So right now can any specific thing that we could label the “me” be found?

No, not even after looking some more

This is all I managed to get through this morning, I’ll keep at the next questions during any breaks today. Also wanted to let you know I’ll be backpacking on Friday and into this weekend. Friday and Sunday I’ll probably have some downtime that I could use for more inquiry and posting responses.

Jerry

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Was a very busy day today, have observations but don’t have the time to type them all up before bedtime. Should have a few hours in a car tomorrow morning where I can write everything.

Jerry

[Alless]

I think I've got what you're saying here Jerry but let me make sure.

I’ll rephrase it to “thought itself may not fade for good”. I look at thought and it comes and goes, but it hasn’t disappeared forever (and I don’t expect it to, I’ve just observed it hasn’t).

Am I right in saying you find that Individual thoughts arise and disappear however the phenomenon of thought doesn't utterly disappear? Thought(s) always seem to be around like clouds in the sky?




There are no other questions about the rest of the post. Good, clear seeing again I sense.

Also wanted to let you know I’ll be backpacking on Friday and into this weekend. Friday and Sunday I’ll probably have some downtime that I could use for more inquiry and posting responses.

Was a very busy day today, have observations but don’t have the time to type them all up before bedtime. Should have a few hours in a car tomorrow morning where I can write everything.

No need to push this Jerry. And I do appreciate you keeping me in the picture as to where you are up to. Whilst it's important to keep momentum going please make sure you don't let this be a burden. Life goes on and I hope you thoroughly enjoy the backpacking. It's a chance to be really curious about what we're exploring here as you are out and around for the next couple of days.
I'd love to hear of anything you would like to report when you get back.




What say we do this. I'll send this now and I won't expect a response for the remaining questions until after the weekend. If you get to respond earlier, great, and if not, great !! 😊

We'll most probably turn our attention to the phenomena of thought next.

Have a wonderful weekend


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan, hope you had a nice weekend

Now, turn your attention to the SEEING ITSELF as you LOOK.

Can you find a specific place from which it arises?

I can’t, it’s like it’s here but also nowhere in particular.

As you continue to look can you find a “me” that is in control of the SEEING?

No, I can’t find anything that’s in control of seeing, let alone a “me”

Can you choose to stop SEEING?

Seeing appears to happen regardless of choice, and when it stops during periods of sleep it doesn’t feel like there’s a me choosing to stop that seeing.

While what we are LOOKING AT is continually changing does the SEEING ITSELF change in any way?

No, seeing itself does not change

So if you can take a few moments now and again throughout the day explore the SEEING that is happening with these questions in mind and tell me anything else about your DIRECT EXPERIENCE that you are noticing

When I’ve explored the seeing, I feel closer to seeing like I’m standing at the forefront of my eyes instead of back inside my head. Whenever I get into seeing the previous questions fade away since they exist in thought.

Sometimes there’s a feeling of familiarity and belonging even in completely new environments, similar to how I feel about the concept of a home.

Am I right in saying you find that Individual thoughts arise and disappear however the phenomenon of thought doesn't utterly disappear? Thought(s) always seem to be around like clouds in the sky?

Yes, you are correct.

I'd love to hear of anything you would like to report when you get back.

I feel more conscious of how my heart rate quickens and my muscles tense up when I get wrapped up in a stream of thoughts, and it feels easier to take a step back. There were moments when I would look around and see no boundaries between this body and the bodies of my friends

Also generally feel like seeing is gradually being integrated into everyday experience, and there’s a growing curiosity towards what’s really being experienced with feelings.

Even during strenuous activity, a lot of actions feel more effortless, and intuitive.

Jerry

[Alless]

Hello Jerry,

Good to see you back on deck and yes, had a lovely weekend here and hope the backpacking was thoroughly enjoyable.

I can’t, it’s like it’s here but also nowhere in particular.

Beautiful !! Here is such a mystery !!

No, I can’t find anything that’s in control of seeing, let alone a “me”

Great.

Seeing appears to happen regardless of choice, and when it stops during periods of sleep it doesn’t feel like there’s a me choosing to stop that seeing.

Yes, it's just happening. And does it really stop during sleep? Consider this.
What about when you are asleep and are dreaming? Is not seeing still happening?



Right now has feeling stopped in, say, your right knee?




( I'm assuming you don't have discomfort there right now !!) Feeling doesn't actually stop. It simply "tells" us when something need to be felt. Same with all the senses including seeing.
Does this ring true for you?

There were moments when I would look around and see no boundaries between this body and the bodies of my friends.

Same as saying there is no separation?

and there’s a growing curiosity towards what’s really being experienced with feelings.

OK. I mentioned earlier that we might investigate thought next. However now that feelings have piqued your curiosity let's go there now by looking at felt sensation.

First we'll back up a bit.

In this investigation with Direct or Actual Experiencing we can identify 6 "aspects" of experiencing, PURE

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

I hadn't spelled out this map, for want of a better word, earlier of the "territory" we are attending to in this exploration of no self.

So here is an exercise to dig into sensations Jerry.

Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that appear and put them aside.

Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.

Now 'go to' the Sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and answer from what you can FIND.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – AE of sensation.



2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?



3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?



Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and Sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?



Can a ‘feeler’ ever be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?



If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be other than a concept/idea/thought?




Enjoy!


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

What about when you are asleep and are dreaming? Is not seeing still happening?

While dreaming there’s seeing, though I’ll double check the next time I have a lucid dream to see what it’s exactly like.

Right now has feeling stopped in, say, your right knee?

At your mention, no, I feel the right knee quite distinctly now.

( I'm assuming you don't have discomfort there right now !!) Feeling doesn't actually stop. It simply "tells" us when something need to be felt. Same with all the senses including seeing.
Does this ring true for you?

Yes, though I want to double check if we’re on the same page. Without you mentioning my right knee, I wouldn’t have felt it in quite the same way. There’s not a me moving around my attention, but rather my attention moving around in response to stimuli.

Same as saying there is no separation?

Yes, we were all in seeing where there’s no separation to be found.

1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one thing – AE of sensation

One thing, it’s one sensation of both

2) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?

There’s just a sensation at the spot they meet

3) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?

There’s just a sensation, there’s no “I” feeling that’s independent of the sensation

Look very carefully. Where does ‘feeling’ end and Sensation begin? Can a dividing line between ‘feeling’ and sensation be found? Or is there just sensation?

This one took over two hours of on and off looking. I didn’t find a dividing line. There’s just sensation, but I’ve only caught brief glimpses of it since categories rapidly return.

Can a ‘feeler’ ever be found in 'what is being felt' – AE sensation?

In what is being felt, I haven’t found a feeler

If that is all, and no INHERENT FEELER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the feeler be other than a concept/idea/thought?

It wouldn’t be anything but an idea or concept. The feeler exists in thought.

Jerry

[Alless]

Hi Jerry

Yes, though I want to double check if we’re on the same page. Without you mentioning my right knee, I wouldn’t have felt it in quite the same way. There’s not a me moving around my attention, but rather my attention moving around in response to stimuli.

Yes, there is no me to be found. Attention does move in response to stimuli in experience. None of the senses turn on and off. There just are. For instance, with tasting when there is nothing in our mouth we hardly notice the taste sensation. However if you feel into it now the normal taste of the mouth is being experienced. In contrast consider if we're involved in some activity and taste food or drink the tasting experience immediately makes itself known, becomes far more prominent. Same with hearing.

Otherwise how could a noise such as an alarm clock stir us from sleep if hearing wasn't hearing? 😊



What you report on the hand exercise is very clear.

And when you say “There’s just sensation, but I’ve only caught brief glimpses of it since categories rapidly return.” that's a wonderful example of how quickly the mind kicks in and labels. It's not that we expect this to really stop, (obviously it can in deep stillness) however, we see it for what it is. Just thoughts. As you said earlier thought never really goes away. The difference now is that what was unconscious in the past is now conscious.



Let's dive further into sensation this time with the body

Here is something that we can look at to further investigate PURE SENSATION.

Sit with EYES CLOSED for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the PURE SENSATIONS, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?



Does the body have a weight or volume?



In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?



Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?



Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?



Is there an inside or an outside?



If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?



If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?



What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?



What is the ACTUAL experience of the body with eyes closed?



FEEL AND LOOK very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look/feel several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Remember this statement a few days ago?

There is no separate self, never has been, and never will be.

What happens now when you sit with that statement?



Describe any differences now experienced to when you first saw it a few days ago?




Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Investigated your questions several times throughout the day

Otherwise how could a noise such as an alarm clock stir us from sleep if hearing wasn't hearing? 😊

That’s true, it couldn’t

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, that would require defining the body

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, that would also require defining the body

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No shape or form, there’s feeling but no shape or form

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No, there’s a feeling where the clothing is but no boundary

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, there’s a feeling where the chair is but no boundary

Is there an inside or an outside?

Only as a category in thought

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?

That would be up to the thoughts, they call what I see a room and I would be inside of a room, they call what I feel a body and I would be inside of a body

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

That would also be up to thoughts as well, they call what feel a body and then anything I don’t feel would be outside of this body.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

A conception of self

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body with eyes closed?

With closed eyes there is no body, there’s touch sensations, sound sensations, and thoughts but no actual experience of a body.

Remember this statement a few days ago?

There is no separate self, never has been, and never will be.

What happens now when you sit with that statement?

It’s calming to read, and it brings me deeper into the current experience of typing this and watching my fingers move. There’s thoughts questioning what this really is, and the past feels unreal. There’s some surprise at how different it feels to read after less than two weeks.

Describe any differences now experienced to when you first saw it a few days ago?

Now the message feels less like a belief and more like a direct observation. The senses feel more engaged and thoughts are quieter as well as more distant.

Jerry

[Alless]

Jerry,

Investigated your questions several times throughout the day

So good to know you're making time to do this.

There’s some surprise at how different it feels to read after less than two weeks.

This is the fruit of your willingness to dig in.



Your report of direct experience is a joy to read Jerry. I don't have anything else to add in response

With closed eyes there is no body, there’s touch sensations, sound sensations, and thoughts but no actual experience of a body.

We'll take this a little further and look at direct experience of an "object" now. This has similarities to the cup exercise but then leads into looking at everyday direct experience of "things" This might be repeating some things that are already clear Jerry but it does no harm reinforcing things.


Actual/Direct Experience - Apple
Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
Tell me about the content of thoughts as you look at the apple, what are they describing?



But what is known for sure as you look at the apple?



Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought.
Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?



Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?




While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.
Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?



Have fun and let me know what you find out.




Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities
In this exploration I would like you to try as many times as you can throughout the day to label daily activities in their simplest form as one of the aspects of AE - whether you are experiencing either color or sound or smell or taste or sensation or thought.

So let's use the activity of having breakfast as an example.

You're sitting down having breakfast and you see a cup of coffee in front of you. As you look at the cup what are you simply experiencing here? As we know from the previous cup exercise you are experiencing color.

So that would be described thus:

Seeing a cup, (you would label it as) simply = image/color

Then, for example, you find yourself wrapping your hands around a hot cup of coffee. Which aspect of AE are you experiencing here? It would be sensation. It is then described this way.

Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation

So for example, when having breakfast, the complete experience would be described this way:

Activity: Having breakfast
Seeing a cup, simply = color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought


Let’s take another example. This time it could look like this:

Activity: Vacuuming
Seeing metal vacuum cleaner, simply = color
Smells of dust, simply = smell
Feel of smooth, slippery (electric) cords, simply = sensation
Tasting (nothing to report) = taste
Sound of “whoosh”, loud, ringing, simply = sound
Thought of “is this clean enough?” simply = thought

Just choose some daily activities and break them down into these aspects / categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations of daily activities in a list *exactly* like the one above, please. Same word forms. Same order. EXACTLY.

Please let me know if this is not clear.


Now Jerry I know I've packed a lot into this post so please take your time. If you want to split it up or take a couple of days to answer then by all means do that.


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Here’s what I got for today. Might make a second post later tonight. Thank you as always!

Tell me about the content of thoughts as you look at the apple, what are they describing?

Waxy-ness of the surface, small white spots, bright redness with some yellow, white, and brown, the fact that these thoughts are being noticed.

All of these thoughts are describing what I see when I focus on the image.

But what is known for sure as you look at the apple?

That there’s seeing, thoughts, and that “seeing” and “thoughts” are also just words themselves.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

There’s no apple. Remove the concept of apple and there’s only a color and a thought.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

No it can’t

However, is an apple actually known?

No it is not, we could call it a brick and it wouldn’t make any difference in actual experience.

Have fun and let me know what you find out.

There’s something that’s been making itself apparent over these past few posts. There’s taste, color, sensation, smell, thought, and while the labels of these things may change, they themselves remain constant and always have been. This is briefly seen. Forming and identifying with the labels seems to invite the opportunity to get mentally tossed around as the labels constantly change around. There’s a feeling that if labeling and identifying didn’t happen then everything would feel very still and peaceful.

Jerry

[Alless]

Hello again Jerry,

All of these thoughts are describing what I see when I focus on the image.

So good Jerry ! We SEE and THEN thoughts come in like a commentator to tell us what we've already seen. Thoughts are always a mere "symbol," or could we say at best, an abstraction, about a past event or about an imagined future that never happens the way thought says it will.

But what is known for sure as you look at the apple?

That there’s seeing, thoughts, and that “seeing” and “thoughts” are also just words themselves.

And we can say two things are know for sure as we look at the apple - color and thoughts arising

No it is not, we could call it a brick and it wouldn’t make any difference in actual experience.

Indeed. Oh I found myself laughing at this !😊😊😊 And if you actually did call it a brick you likely would be told you are wrong !! Unless someone was wise enough to ask you what you meant. Such a good example of conditioning through language.

Forming and identifying with the labels seems to invite the opportunity to get mentally tossed around as the labels constantly change around. There’s a feeling that if labeling and identifying didn’t happen then everything would feel very still and peaceful.

What you've described here is the root of suffering - mentally being tossed around. Just keep noticing the peace when thoughts are not identified with.

Herein is the joy in "guiding." Reading what you report about YOUR direct experience Jerry. Authentic reporting of direct experience reveals such unique ways of describing things.

And consider this in having a conversation. Direct experience is translated into thoughts and thoughts are expressed in symbols and become words, and words become stories - all of which have such potential power in experience. Then as I listen to the words you are saying (and often not very well at that and with the overlay of my own interpretation) those symbols becomes thoughts and I create an imaginary experience of your reality. No wonder there is so much scope for misunderstanding and conflict !

We can thus remind ourselves that the aim is not to get rid of thoughts - they come and go like clouds in the sky - but to see them for what they are.


And it's Thanksgiving for you all in the US. So I can understand if you are a couple of days till you finish your responses.


Alan