Around me and inside me

[JonathanR]

Hi Susanna,

I have seen awake nothingness many times. It's not persistent. I understand I'm no self and I've seen it many times. I don't live from that perspective or from that beingness. I feel like I go in and out of delusion (consensus reality).

Its perfectly possible to see that there’s no self, so that there’s absolutely no doubt about this, that there is no self, but to sometimes forget, to sometimes identify as if there actually is some kind of separate entity “me”.

So the questions are:

Is there a self, anywhere in experience?

If not, what is it that goes in and out of delusion?


Love


Jon

[Hotpoot]

There is no self in experience. There is only reality unfolding in awake nothingness.

The mind is going in and out of delusion. Concepts, beliefs, blind spots, attention, constrictions, restrictions, unconscious conditioning. Blind acceptance of thoughts and judgements.

[JonathanR]

Hi Susanna

There is no self in experience. There is only reality unfolding in awake nothingness.

Ok, right, but can you say that this is seen beyond a shadow of doubt? Or is there some idea that this is “not enough” , not properly seen?

The mind is going in and out of delusion. Concepts, beliefs, blind spots, attention, constrictions, restrictions, unconscious conditioning. Blind acceptance of thoughts and judgements.

What mind? (I’m actually serious… find out).

Yes, there can easily be a lot of thought activity. Is it necessary to identify with what thoughts “say”?

I wasn’t going to suggest any practice, as such, but sometimes it can be very helpful to sit quietly (or walk quietly if you like, somewhere natural such as a park, nature or the seaside, where it’s possible to relax a bit. If this is isn’t possible then simply sit quietly at home when you probably won’t be disturbed. Then, just notice sensations in the body. It can be good to start by noticing sensations in the feet for a few minutes. Then, any actual sensations experienced in the body ir between “body” and “environment” ( for example sounds or whatever happens to be seen). Don’t struggle with any of this. Even if nothing is happening, or if thoughts are racing. You can’t get this “wrong”. If thoughts come, let them, but whenever there’s a gap just notice sensations in feet or arms, hands, or perhaps the breath. Just return to sensation after each passage of thoughts. It absolutely doesn’t matter whatever the thoughts are about.


Let me know if my suggestion is clear and makes sense?


with love

Jon

[Hotpoot]

There is no mind. I find no mind when I search for it. Like I can’t find thoughts when I search for them. It seems that the mind produces thoughts and emotions (maybe- all of this is a big maybe for me). No brain. No thing. Everything is an appearance in awareness or reality/no thing. I see the mind as an overlay of the source/no thing/awareness. Everything is too. The mind somehow feels more intimate to me because as far as I know no one else can hear/read or see my thoughts. But, the mind is still not there when I search for it. There is a concept of a mind that is appearing over the no thing that is eternal (maybe). Language sucks when trying to describe this stuff. It’s so inaccurate and inadequate.

As far as seeing no-self, it’s not there when I search for it. It was a huge relief for me when I discovered I’ve never been touched by anything. I meaning the source/reality/awareness. It was very liberating. However, as you’ve asked, it’s not properly seen.

The instructions you’ve given are very clear and I’m going to start this practice today. I’ll give you a progress report and discuss anything interesting that comes up.

Take care and stay well,
Susanna

[JonathanR]

Hi Susanna

There is no mind. I find no mind when I search for it. Like I can’t find thoughts when I search for them. It seems that the mind produces thoughts and emotions (maybe- all of this is a big maybe for me). No brain. No thing. Everything is an appearance in awareness or reality/no thing. I see the mind as an overlay of the source/no thing/awareness. Everything is too. The mind somehow feels more intimate to me because as far as I know no one else can hear/read or see my thoughts. But, the mind is still not there when I search for it. There is a concept of a mind that is appearing over the no thing that is eternal (maybe). Language sucks when trying to describe this stuff. It’s so inaccurate and inadequate.

I know what you mean. But thanks for trying to answer this and for looking to check on “mind”.

As far as seeing no-self, it’s not there when I search for it. It was a huge relief for me when I discovered I’ve never been touched by anything. I meaning the source/reality/awareness. It was very liberating.

It’s great to hear this. When did this happen, if you can remember ? What were the circumstances?

However, as you’ve asked, it’s not properly seen.

I’m glad you have said this because in most other respects what you say about there being no self comes across as an extremely confident and definite position.

We need to focus, then, on what remains unclear, which often has to do with what we really want and don’t want from this investigation.

The instructions you’ve given are very clear and I’m going to start this practice today. I’ll give you a progress report and discuss anything interesting that comes up.

That’s great Susanne. Whilst you call it a “practice” there’s no need to practice as such. Don’t make it a chore at all, just relax and luxuriate in the sensations .


Love

Jon

[Hotpoot]

Hi Jon,

When I did the Finders Course the first time - we did a week of study on enquiry. I’ve taken the full Finders Course 4 times. The first time with two facilitators and the other 3 with one teacher. The first time, during enquiry week, it was a painful and uncomfortable experience going through the questions, “Who am I?”. I was very reluctant to admit there was “no self”. I mourned that week for the loss of myself, my family and everything known and unknown. We each performed dyad enquiry with each other and separately with the facilitators. When I was doing enquiry with one of the facilitators, everything fell away. My past disappeared and became irrelevant, everything was at zero distance and I recognized everything we just objects appearing in awareness, including the object that is my vessel (body). hearing was hearing, seeing was seeing, and feeling was feeling- not attached to the susanna character. I realized because I’ve never existed that the “bad things” that happened to me in my past never touched “me” - the source, awareness, the great what’s it, etc… This liberation lasted for at least a year. I had total equanimity. Then in July 2022, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I was still in equanimity through everything, the surgery, the radiation, the chemo, etc… What was happening was just what was happening. I felt more liberation and besides the equanimity, I also felt deep love and compassion for everyone and everything that was really a reflection of the my vessel. The doctor’s prescribed a hormonal chemotherapy that I will take for the rest of my life. I went from equanimity to dark night of the soul or something like it. I reverted to fear, panic, suffering and a realization that everyone I love, including my vessel (body/unit) will die and nothing matters. Nihilism. I reverted to the “mind layer”. I spoke to several teachers and then took the Finders Course 3 times. I’m now in a limbo state I think. Most of the time, I’m lost in consensus reality - now attention to anything - just another Muggle who lives in the mind state believing everything is real and suffering appears now and then. Very frustrating. When I practice the path- meditation, enquiry, etc… I momentarily no-self - living in equanimity. Then poof, Muggle again.

Then I started talking to you and it’s helped me immensely. I’m so grateful to be able to work with you. Thank you!

I hope some of this clarifies where I’m at or where I’ve been. I just don’t understand why I vacillate back and forth between no-self and being a Muggle. I guess that is what I want/need- of course striving for - I understand how striving creates suffering. Maybe, I only understand it intellectually. I guess writing this out, I also feel some imposter syndrome about the times that no-self and liberation were my existence. I wish it was a persistent state.

I do love luxuriating in sensations. My feet disappear - there are no feet, just sensation - it happens to any body part I move to and I’m just floating in awareness without a body. It’s so nice. I’ll keep you updated about what else happens.

xoxo, Susanna

[JonathanR]

Hi Dusanna

Thank you so much for giving me that really helpful account of what you’ve been through. Much of it resonates here too, including the dark night stuff.

It certainly does help to clarify “where you’re at”. Thank you. I’m glad you included the more painful, difficult and and frustrating stuff as well as the wonderful insights.

One of the things, probably the greatest thing that I love about no self is the lack of duality, the lack of separation between an apparent self and apparent external world. How many years were spent believing that there is a “me” that is somehow separated from everything else and subject to all sorts of problems?

Nowadays I can still wake up at night, at 3am, unable to get back to sleep, and confronted by the darkness. This used to really bug me. Anything to make it go away, but looking right into it and even welcoming this experience has allowed it to be seen as non-separate from whatever it is that “I” am There’s real peace in this. Nothing has to be artificially separate from anything else. Thoughts about separation, wrongness, about needing things to change into some other experience just melt away!

Please do let me know how you’re getting on?

Sending love,

Jon

[Hotpoot]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your understanding for my delay. I've had a rough week at work and home.

It really resonated with me that you spoke about non-duality. That has been my goal for at least the last 3 years. I've vacillated between very strong practice to no practice and that openness and silence has never disappeared. However, it's in the background most of the time. I've been striving to bring it to the foreground and feel I've put way too much emphasis on the outcome instead of really relishing the path itself. The practices are so incredible and amazing. They stand alone. However, I want the liberation that Ramana Maharshi experienced. I must incorporate the practices with my world. This week, I worked 13–14-hour days while total mayhem was happening at home. I work from home, so it was impossible to not be sucked up into the craziness.

Looking back at this week and trying to deal with the issues that came up with my 17-year-old daughter, I can confirm that I lost the senses of "no self" many times. However, I was able to really look at my thoughts and ask who is upset? who is worried? etc... I searched and couldn't find a sense of self or "self". I've also been consistently practicing noticing sensations - mostly at night when everything has quieted down. I'm not getting much sleep because of work and the stuff happening with my daughter. She started having panic attacks, then heart issues, then 2 weeks ago she refused to go to school, doesn't want to go to college and is just angry and mean. I'm not trying to solve her issues, but I am trying to support her. I'm worried for her and her future. But, who is worried? no one. I'm not just giving that answer because it's expected. I truly see no one is worried. I truly see there is no feelings such as worry, etc...

I'm so very tired.

That's what's going on with me. The practices you've given me has been my refuge - thank you.

Susanna

[JonathanR]

Hi Susanna


I’m sorry that you had such a tough week. 14 hours a day sounds very demanding and with mayhem at home. I hope that things ease up a bit for you soon.

The practices are so incredible and amazing. They stand alone. However, I want the liberation that Ramana Maharshi experienced.

I think Ramana emphasized silence, didn’t he? If I’m not incorrect he embodied that approach, often remaining silent.

can it be known what Ramana’s liberation was like? It’s possible to speculate and to have strong notions about what
his experience was like. But these are ideas. what if his realisation could not be expressed using words?

I've put way too much emphasis on the outcome instead of really relishing the path itself

Then it’s a very good idea to “ just be” for a while, not making any particular effort but just noticing whatever is happening. Particularly with sensations and with the area around the heart.

It is very often the busy mind that is agitated, finds that there’s “something wrong” , needs something to change, demands this or that type of experience. It goes on thinking about what “should” be happening. In its restlessness it cannot notice what’s here already.

Love

Jon

[Hotpoot]

I do believe no one can know what Ramana’s experience was exactly. He did emphasize silence. I thought about that last night while I was laying in bed doing the sensation exercises. In the Finder’s Course and the alumni Group/Awakening community POK - Perfectly Okay, we do something called Group Awareness exercises where we all take terms describing awareness, reality, who the essential I really is. I know those practices have helped me reach a state of silence and beingness where there is no I. Being able to exist as human outwardly and divine inwardly. Yesterday, I was doing the see, hear and feel exercises that Shinzen Young has teachings about. I just concentrated on feeling - the sensations practice you graciously given me. I just concentrated on the sensations and then my body disappeared, starting at my feet and went up. I floated in aware nothingness. Even now, I can think of how it felt and I feel this calmness go through my whole being.

When asked about his experience, I believe Ramana always pointed people toward silence. I always thought he meant to deeply fall into being conscious of the silent and still (peaceful) place at one’s center. I will try silence more often. I really do love see, hear and feel practices too. The more I feel my body the less real it feels. I say that knowing that’s not always true. I have some heart issues and they’ve had to add me on 3 new meds within the last week and whenever I feel my heart acting up or pain in my knees, I feel completely grounded in the body and deeply identify with my character.

I sometimes don’t understand when people on the path say that “nothing is real” or “my body isn’t real” - I know at my center there is an unchanging absence of feeling and capacity for everything seen, felt and heard. But fear arises. I woke at 5am with my heart beating very fast and bang, I was me again. The me that will die one day and the fear set in. Thankfully it passed quickly and I practiced following my breath and feeling the sensations in my feet. I feel like when I go straight into practices, I’m quickly trying to change the way I feel and what I’m thinking about. Is that bypassing?

I will pay more attention to what’s here already instead of quantifying and qualifying “my reality”.

I’m not sure if you’ve taken the Finder’s Course or you’re a part of POK, but if you’re interested in joining the POK community, let me know. There are meetings many times a day about everything on the path. Also, there are several meetings of Group Awareness Exercises a day, which I never seem to be able to fit into my schedule, but yearn for it so badly. I will prioritize it.

Lastly, I want to thank you again for your guidance. I’m not sure what I’m writing to you is the way this is supposed to be done, and I’m happy to course correct if need be.

love, Susanna

[JonathanR]

Hi Susanna

That’s so weird… I posted last night but now it isn’t here.

I will write again.

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi again…

Hi Susanna

I just concentrated on the sensations and then my body disappeared, starting at my feet and went up. I floated in aware nothingness. Even now, I can think of how it felt and I feel this calmness go through my whole being

Well that’s wonderful. It’s great, not really having to make an “effort” to do this.

Who would have to be making effort in any case?. It’s just a willingness to notice these sensations. The calmness is lovely.

I always thought he meant to deeply fall into being conscious of the silent and still (peaceful) place at one’s center.

Yes. but what if it isn’t even necessary to think in terms of a being, or a center? What if it’s HERE RIGHT NOW AND ALWAYS, no matter what you do, or say or think ?

I feel completely grounded in the body and deeply identify with my character

Oh yeah. That happens too :-) Is there someone who worries about this identification? Should it not happen?

I sometimes don’t understand when people on the path say that “nothing is real” or “my body isn’t real”

Well , sometimes the seeming permanence of everything can drop away for moments, just as it’s possible to notice that there’s no self. But people saying these sorts of things need to be aware of the context. . Maybe they are deluding themselves, or maybe they are talking from their genuine insight. But saying these things out loud can sometimes lead to thoughts of inadequacy in the minds of other seekers who may, at that moment, not be seeing things in that way.

I feel like when I go straight into practices, I’m quickly trying to change the way I feel and what I’m thinking about. Is that bypassing?

Quite possibly. But it’s not a sin. It can happen, like thoughts. (I’ve noticed this “bypassing” word being used quite a lot in the spiritual community and not always very helpfully). It’s good to notice if you’re doing it though.

I will pay more attention to what’s here already instead of quantifying and qualifying “my reality”.

Sounds good. Attention is helpful, in a relaxed, inquisitive spirit.


I haven’t taken the Finders course. Thank you for inviting me to join POK. Actually I’m so busy with work that I haven’t got spare time at present. But thank you.

Lastly, I want to thank you again for your guidance. I’m not sure what I’m writing to you is the way this is supposed to be done, and I’m happy to course correct if need be.

Im delighted to be working with you Susanna. You can’t get this “wrong”. If there were anything that needed changing I would say so.


With love


Jon

[Hotpoot]

Hi Jon,

Hope you’re feeling groovy.

When I learned Sailor Bob died, I posted on the non duality subreddit. I said He is the center of his being now. Good for him. my husband immediately said to me. he was always the center. Someone wrote a response to my post saying something similar- “But notice that we all are, all the time, and never were not.”. They wrote more - “The confusion is only due to illusion. We were never separate, only in the persistent dream, identifying with the apparent main character. All the while we are entirely in the center of our being, right now. It cannot be lost, it cannot be hurt, it cannot not be. We only “need” to realize what is already fact. That the dream is only a dream.”

I’ve listened to a lot of his recordings and read many of his pointers. All so helpful. What the person wrote who responded to me wrote something I’ve experienced and “seen” several times… more than several even. Yesterday, I worked way too long and hard. I noticed Susanna disappears a lot. There is just living, moving, actioning… there is no out there or inside here. But I sense this is not non duality. I feel that maybe my attention is just directed to tasks and thinking, eating, living etc… time passes unseen and felt, and moving disappears, time gaps too. Like walking from room to room, not present to see and feel that I’ve used my body to move myself. Is that non duality? When both my husband the anonymous person corrected me or maybe it wasn’t correcting, but reminding me and pointing me back to the open center (words, words, words). I’ve been doing Headless experiments. I grok the no self - that I am capacity for everything - no self and no face. But it still feels fleeting. Just talking to you inspires me to keep pealing away my own layers and to keep working experiments. I want to burst through an get to fetter 2. wanting and striving, wanting and striving… good for me, I know.

In the Finders Course each week it is a different path - they have you experiment with each path of enlightenment and you see which one fits with you that propels you into Fundamental Wellbeing. I really love the course. I remember just loving The Headless Way week so much. It was very soothing and freeing for me. Then we got to the Direct Enquiry week and it felt like my brain got hurt asking the questions. and the dyad enquiry was also difficult. I was angry at the facilitators because they seemed so happy when I did grok no-self - that I’m awareness, in no space and no time, perpetually in the present. They congratulated me and seemed genuinely happy! But, I had just lost myself, my family, my dogs and my whole past. I was bereft for a very long time.

What helped me? More direct enquiry. In POK, Eric Lindo, did a series of meetings where we read ‘The Direct Path” by Greg Goode and did his experiments all together each week until we finished the book. Gosh, it helped immensely and slowly I started living in a persistent state of “awareness, no-self, inner space and like you said, Right Here and Always. Then the cancer and the meds that confined me in the mind layer. This work we are doing has been fantastic,. I am still doing the sensations exercises. I love the calm silence that takes over while I’m floating without a body in sweet nothingness. Every time, I feel it, I say a word so when I’m feeling stressed out, I silently say the word and I remember when I was no thing. Instant stress reducer for me, but I also feel so happy a genuine loving sweetness felt encompassing everything that is also me.

I think doing these exercises and writing to you, has brought into focus that the trauma I thought I had worked through and let go of is still right here - right now. I’m not afraid to look at it. I just see it and think or say, oh okay this needs attention so let’s run this through to the end. My body dysmorphia is very strong right now too. It’s funny because I feel like I don’t have a body most of the time, unless I’m in severe pain and then the pain is just strong sensations floating in space.

Do I just keep doing what we are doing now for awhile to work through the trauma or do I do anything extra.

I appreciate you so much! xoxo,
Susanna

[JonathanR]

Hi Susanna

As a matter of fact groovy is how I feel today , pretty much. thanks. I hope you’re feeling well too :)

This work we are doing has been fantastic,. I am still doing the sensations exercises. I love the calm silence that takes over while I’m floating without a body in sweet nothingness. Every time, I feel it, I say a word so when I’m feeling stressed out, I silently say the word and I remember when I was no thing. Instant stress reducer for me, but I also feel so happy a genuine loving sweetness felt encompassing everything that is also me.

This is good to hear Susanna.

I think doing these exercises and writing to you, has brought into focus that the trauma I thought I had worked through and let go of is still right here - right now. I’m not afraid to look at it. I just see it and think or say, oh okay this needs attention so let’s run this through to the end.

Ok. So it’s very good to not be afraid of witnessing, greeting, possibly even communicating with whatever, “whoever” is traimatized. Notice that heart is big enough to accommodate traumatised or painful emotions.

A couple of posts back you mentioned occasional fear. Is there ever fear in relation to looking at no self? If there is please let me jnow about it.


With love

Jon

[Hotpoot]

Jon,

I have the flu so this may not be a long post. i never feel fear when looking at no self.

I had a realization the other day that I’ve a lot of the search for no self much more complicated than it needs to be. i hope I feel better tomorrow to share more. i reread one of the passages in the LU book and it felt like my mind unraveled and i felt so much lighter. i even realized that i do grok no self deeper than originally thought when we first started working together.

more to come when Im feeling better.

stay well! Susu