Unraveling

[davjak]

This morning I see it's all a phantom display. I lives in and only as an imaginary fabrication. We could go on for eons pointing a me to this or that experience, and a me could have different experiences based on those pointers. But it could be endless without the recognition of the root enthrallment of being the character whose inner world this is. All of it, aside from the bare sense experience, was/is a story, ceaselessly morphing phantom display. There was just a glimpse of all this from the outside.

The habituated story was "I am thinking. My mind is too active. I'm not getting this right. I get lost in thought. I am caught because of past trauma that led me to retreat into a world of my own making. Now I must go into direct experience to work my way out of this dilemma. I'm being pointed out of this fixation."

With the realization of it being a "phantom display", the game is recognized. It was all imagination. When a pointer would come, it was merely being taken into, fitted into the familiar landscape of the enchantment. I could see or sense there was enchantment and fixation and going in circles, I just never recognized it was all nothing BUT circling, all retreading the same ground inside the one and only bubble. Every turn was just another turn within the bubble. Every thought and all the inner experience had the same center of gravity.

I will redo the exercise. I think. I kind of just want to sit and cry.

[Bluejay]

Every turn was just another turn within the bubble.

Yes. It is just endless if the answer is sought in thought.

I will redo the exercise. I think. I kind of just want to sit and cry.

If feeling is coming up, be with it fully.

I know this can be brutal at times. I spent years in resistance and confusion, but there is a way out, and that is fully facing what is here.

It rarely happens in one go, so back and forth is to be expected.

[davjak]

Much gratitude. I will keep at it and report back.

[davjak]

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

Both are labeling; in the second there is no agent presumed to be present.

2. What is here without labels?

Raw, unfiltered experience.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They just describe and distract. They are a habitual, delusional effort to manage and control or manipulate experience by an imagined agent.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Possibly less contraction, less use of imaginary force.

I get that when we are talking about direct experience, we are referring to raw perceptual data, what actually arises in consciousness as the experience. I get that there is only this arising experience, with no one to experience it, no witnessing presence, only the presence, if that is the experience, or only the seen if there is seeing. There is very little stability to this, though.

Just FYI... I work 10 hrs. Mon.-Thur., but will stay in touch as much as possible, probably, mostly in the AM.

[davjak]

Out of bed with a bit of restless energy. I see there is nothing to do but come again and again to direct experience, while the mind, like a wild horse, doesn't want to submit. It wants to persist as it has been accustomed to doing. It's being coaxed back to an infant-like state of experiencing, prior to the development of the complex of conceptual function, before it developed this constrictive, distorted interface with experience. It's just a matter of doing the dance with this mind as it needs to have it happen, some give and some take, two steps forward, one step back, and it will allow itself to come to heel. There is nowhere else to go now, as if some gravitational pull has taken over.

[Bluejay]

This is better!

Possibly less contraction, less use of imaginary force.

There is still some seeming thinking here. When you look, there is no need for guessing. Either it is less contraction, or it is not. Thinking ponders, contemplates and compares.

There is very little stability to this, though.

This is to be expected in the beginning. If you notice any evaluation your own progress, you can let that go as best you can. You can surrender progress to life, presence, or whatever feels best. It's not something that can be controlled, and it will have to be given up at some point.

All that can be done is what is done. If that leads somewhere, great, but it's not in any of our hands.

It's just a matter of doing the dance with this mind as it needs to have it happen, some give and some take, two steps forward, one step back, and it will allow itself to come to heel. There is nowhere else to go now, as if some gravitational pull has taken over.

Great, and what is the mind in direct experience?

Does the mind have an intention to do something?

[davjak]

This is to be expected in the beginning. If you notice any evaluation your own progress, you can let that go as best you can. You can surrender progress to life, presence, or whatever feels best. It's not something that can be controlled, and it will have to be given up at some point.

All that can be done is what is done. If that leads somewhere, great, but it's not in any of our hands.

This anticipates my experience this morning. The sitting was quiet and focused, but dry, yielding nothing to report. Afterwards this brings to mind the issue I mentioned at the outset, the concern with being smart, insightful, etc. There is this concern in the background that this thread should be a good read for imaginary others, like a good novel, with a great, successful ending. There is a concern that it will run dry, be a tedious boring slog, that I will fail and be of no interest or worth.

This is all deep programming. If I ask who is this watchful ghost this character has been trying to please and impress his whole life, I'm led inevitably to the cold, unavailable, critical mother.. The ever-present evaluation of my own progress and need to cast it in a positive light is driven by this internalized figure.

I see now, this is the time to let go of this story, though, and be with the sensations the experience elicits. There is no ghostly mother living in the adult child's head, and there is no one whose thread this is, whether it flops or has a wonderful outcome. There is no one to be responsible for it. This runs against a flowing current, but I do see it.

[Bluejay]

You didn't answer the questions in my last post. Here they are again:

What is the mind in direct experience?

Does the mind have an intention to do something?

This is all deep programming. If I ask who is this watchful ghost this character has been trying to please and impress his whole life, I'm led inevitably to the cold, unavailable, critical mother.. The ever-present evaluation of my own progress and need to cast it in a positive light is driven by this internalized figure.

It's good that you are aware of this.

Close your eyes, imagine your mother and say: I am okay as I am or I am loved as I am

If something comes up, welcome it, and sit with it over and over until it is done. This could take days or longer.

Don't engage in thoughts or story. Feel.

I see now, this is the time to let go of this story, though, and be with the sensations the experience elicits. There is no ghostly mother living in the adult child's head, and there is no one whose thread this is, whether it flops or has a wonderful outcome. There is no one to be responsible for it. This runs against a flowing current, but I do see it.

There is no mother, but the emotional charge is there. The method above is the way through that.

It's great to say that this is no one's thread, but if it's not experiential, then it is intellectual, and that can become an obstacle.

Also, just to be completely blunt here, you keep saying that it is time to let go, to be with experience, but you aren't doing the pointers or answering questions.

You need to sit down and inquire and feel. If there's avoidance, there's likely some feeling you're avoiding. The solution is to feel whatever is there, no matter how scary.

Cheerio :)

[davjak]

You didn't answer the questions in my last post. Here they are again:

I realized this later and have been working on it. On lunch now. Will respond tonight.
Thanks for the pointers!

[davjak]

You didn't answer the questions in my last post. Here they are again:

What is the mind in direct experience?

Sorry to overlook them. I am very pressed for time from Sunday night to Thursday night.

Direct experience is seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling and thought. By this measure mind is a label, a concept imposed on DE. We could say mind is awareness of what is present in DE, but it isn't necessary to add another conceptual layer.

Does the mind have an intention to do something?

In keeping with my answer above, a concept cannot have an intention. So, how does intention arise? It's a product of the totality of conditions.

It's great to say that this is no one's thread, but if it's not experiential, then it is intellectual, and that can become an obstacle.

It's both intuited and intellectualized. I am hazy on this and would like to explore it.

Also, just to be completely blunt here, you keep saying that it is time to let go, to be with experience, but you aren't doing the pointers or answering questions.

Yes, it is accurate to say attention is habituated to thoughts and avoidant of immediate experience. It feels like addiction.

You need to sit down and inquire and feel. If there's avoidance, there's likely some feeling you're avoiding. The solution is to feel whatever is there, no matter how scary.

I don't have the impression something big and scary is lurking subconsciously, I agree, being frequently lost in thought is indicative of avoidance. I will do this inquiry.

[davjak]

Ironically, something just happened to show me what I didn't see. In my relations with people I am largely numbed. With my pets, the attachment and feelings are intense. The first time I lost one, I was sick with grief and missed a week of work. The symptoms were similar to a flu. So, the issue is with experiencing intense emotions and detachment in relation to people. So, from seeing nothing a few minutes ago, here is the 800 lb. gorilla.

[davjak]

Usually I would be in bed by now so I can get up at 5, but I figure if I don't do it now it will probably get me out of bed to do it in the middle of the night when things usually tend to surface. What happened was a pet who is having a health issue yelped with pain, and it triggered my typical response when an animal becomes sick, which is to scream F! and pound a fist into the palm of my other hand. The first time I lost a pet, it was the most intense grief I've ever felt. I wasn't able to look at his picture for 3 years, until not long ago I forced myself to do it. When such an intense emotion occurs with a sense of absolute powerlessness it feels like a black hole collapsing.

I am impressed that you spotted the avoidance so quickly. This isn't how I expected this to go. When I stopped therapy after 8 years I always thought it was because I recognized I'd gotten as far as I was going to get with it. About two weeks ago the real reason hit me out of the blue. At the 8 year point the therapist said "It isn't supposed to be this hard. There has to be something more to it. I would like you to get evaluated for Asperger's." But this was in no way part of my plan.

I was an artist in NYC. I spent my college time consuming one psychology book after another. So, I was going to diagnose and fix myself, more or less. My plan was that I would be a textbook case, show how smart I was, put in the work and be a successful therapeutic outcome. It would all be part of my journey to fame as a painter. Now, after all this work, though, this therapist wanted to label me with this horrible sounding condition and have my go sit in support groups with defective types. Somehow I blocked out the fact that this is what marked the end of my time in therapy.

I've brought that same attitude here I now see. I will show intelligence and insight, and it will be a good example of how this is supposed to happen. There is this straw man I've fashioned, a complete phantom image I've hung onto all this time.

Now I'm seeing other issues too, but I know this isn't talk therapy or a virtual couch, so I suppose that is for me to do the inquiry. I am wondering how we proceed on all this now? In my ignorance, I was ready to continue overlooking the character-based issues. Now I see the picture of what is actually here taking shape, with all the stuff that has remained unexamined. I recognize now, the way forward is to feel everything that has been stuffed under the rug, but how much do I spew about it here? Is going into detail as above the thing to do, or do we go about it in another manner?

[Bluejay]

Direct experience is seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling and thought. By this measure mind is a label, a concept imposed on DE. We could say mind is awareness of what is present in DE, but it isn't necessary to add another conceptual layer.

What is awareness in DE?

So, the issue is with experiencing intense emotions and detachment in relation to people

Notice that intense is a label. Emotions themselves are not a problem. What makes them intense or unbearable or anything like that is the resistance to them.

I am impressed that you spotted the avoidance so quickly. This isn't how I expected this to go. When I stopped therapy after 8 years I always thought it was because I recognized I'd gotten as far as I was going to get with it. About two weeks ago the real reason hit me out of the blue. At the 8 year point the therapist said "It isn't supposed to be this hard. There has to be something more to it. I would like you to get evaluated for Asperger's." But this was in no way part of my plan.

Almost everyone avoids by going into their thinking and imagination, so this is not uncommon.

Now I'm seeing other issues too, but I know this isn't talk therapy or a virtual couch, so I suppose that is for me to do the inquiry. I am wondering how we proceed on all this now? In my ignorance, I was ready to continue overlooking the character-based issues. Now I see the picture of what is actually here taking shape, with all the stuff that has remained unexamined. I recognize now, the way forward is to feel everything that has been stuffed under the rug, but how much do I spew about it here? Is going into detail as above the thing to do, or do we go about it in another manner?

I don't need any detail at all on the specifics. I only really need to hear answers to my questions, and then if I need more, I can ask.

It would be a good practice to get used to feeling the body and spending time in the senses during the day, noticing when you get pulled into thinking and what is being avoided. You don't need to do this 100% of the time. Just here and there. And it won't be perfect. The goal is simply to become aware of what's going on, not to be perfect right away.

(This trying to be perfect is also a diversion of feeling, which could be sadness, hurt, or something else. Up to you to investigate).

There are also some great therapies that could help with trauma, such as EMDR, Brainspotting, or TRE by David Bereceli (he's on YouTube. If you try TRE, start very slow, 1 minute per day max).

Here's the next pointer. Focus on finding the answers through looking instead of what you already know. You may already know some or all of the answers, but forget knowledge, and look directly.

Actual/Direct Experience - Apple

Have a look at an apple (or any fruit you like.) If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Actual experience does not refer to thoughts about something, because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, color, smell, taste, sensation and the fact of thought arising, but not its content.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk about can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by "looking in actual experience." What you know for sure, and, is always here.

- Taste labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Color labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labeled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labeled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

Enjoy and let me know what you find out :)

[davjak]

What is awareness in DE?

It is nothing other than the DE. There is only DE, with no awareness standing apart from from experience. In full disclosure, though, this is new to me. I only heard this in a video not long ago. But it clicked right away. I had always conceived of awareness as unnameable, but existing, ready to know what appears within it. I see how this was a conceptual construct.

Notice that intense is a label. Emotions themselves are not a problem. What makes them intense or unbearable or anything like that is the resistance to them.

Got it. I am always a larger space, always able to accommodate DE. There is no alternate to DE, other than retreating into thought, which is no longer an unconscious, reflexive habit.

Almost everyone avoids by going into their thinking and imagination, so this is not uncommon.

(Sigh of relief)

It would be a good practice to get used to feeling the body and spending time in the senses during the day, noticing when you get pulled into thinking and what is being avoided. You don't need to do this 100% of the time. Just here and there. And it won't be perfect. The goal is simply to become aware of what's going on, not to be perfect right away.

(This trying to be perfect is also a diversion of feeling, which could be sadness, hurt, or something else. Up to you to investigate).

On it.
I have been doing TRE for about a month now. Was doing 10-15 min. I'm not sure how to do it in a minute?

What about the content of thoughts, what do they describe?

Thoughts describe our ideas of or resistance to DE. The world of thought is a circumscribed, conditioned loop and at a distance from sense experience.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought about ‘apple’?[/quote
There is only color and thoughts about it. There is no 'apple' existing in DE.

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

In actual experience, there is only the seen, the heard, the tasted, the smelled, the felt and thoughts. Apple falls in the thought/label class.
Thanks for being here.

[Bluejay]

It is nothing other than the DE. There is only DE, with no awareness standing apart from from experience. In full disclosure, though, this is new to me. I only heard this in a video not long ago. But it clicked right away. I had always conceived of awareness as unnameable, but existing, ready to know what appears within it. I see how this was a conceptual construct.

Exactly!

I have been doing TRE for about a month now. Was doing 10-15 min. I'm not sure how to do it in a minute?

If you've already been doing it for 10-15 min then ignore what I said. Keep doing what you've been doing.

In actual experience, there is only the seen, the heard, the tasted, the smelled, the felt and thoughts. Apple falls in the thought/label class.
Thanks for being here.

Thank you for going where it's uncomfortable :)

Now time for thought exploration. Again, direct experience and share what you see in this moment. If you know the correct answer, but see/feel something different, please only share the latter. Your experience is what's important.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Let me know what you find :)