Anatta, Is not self: Right View

[Bluejay]

Hello!

An ability to choose to go with the "urge", or ignore it and choose a better option. Although the "urge" guides most action automatically, without my awareness, nor control.

Pay closer attention to this ability to choose to go with the urge and you will find the a similar urge before it. It has a feeling of control, but is it there?

See if you can separate the feeling of control and actual control.

I mostly don't it seems. With the exception being when I have specific goals, the "urges" align towards achieving the goal.

Look at the causes and conditions that were necessary for that goal to be heard, accepted, and applied by your body/mind.

Did 'you' decide to take on that goal? Did you decide what information to take in, what was interesting, and what was applied?

Did you decide your personality which was open to taking and applying all that? And did you decide the circumstances necessary to trigger that to happen?

Now you could say 'No, but out of all that, I chose it,' but what exactly did you choose if even the choosing comes from genetics, personality, circumstances, mood/thoughts in the moment, and so on?

2. An example is concentration Jhana 1 (rapture, joy and happiness). To achieve that I have to control the attention as a "doer" (ie manager, controller).

There can be control of attention, but why or how does that mean there is a doer?

You could say the earth's climate manages the rain, but does it really or is it up to the right conditions to line up?

So is something controlled or is that simply how it is framed in thought, which creates self/other, inside/outside, doing/not doing?

Here's a pointer that might help explore the above:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

Enjoy and feel free to take your time with all this! :)

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri,

Thank you. This will take me into deeper waters. I am an engineer, and have confidence in efficient and effective procedures to achieve a goal, in this case, of empirical direct experience investigation.

I need time to construct an investigation procedure for myself (I can do it, as I believe I know enough about concentration and mindfulness meditation), then implement.

I will report back when I have the results.

Kind Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

I need time to construct an investigation procedure for myself (I can do it, as I believe I know enough about concentration and mindfulness meditation), then implement.

I will report back when I have the results.

All right. Whatever works for you, as long as you're not trying to grasp and understand too much with the mind.

All that is required, after all, is to look and see what's going on.

Talk soon! :)

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri, and thank you.

I have done some extra concentration and mindfulness to prepare for your questions, as I am unsure if I have the resolution of direct experience to investigate and answer. So, here is my current answers:

Pay closer attention to this ability to choose to go with the urge and you will find the a similar urge before it. It has a feeling of control, but is it there?

See if you can separate the feeling of control and actual control.

I need to work on this, it's just beyond my perceptual resolution to see the answer.

Did 'you' decide to take on that goal? Did you decide what information to take in, what was interesting, and what was applied?

It appears so, yes. A positive urge is generated to create a goal, then a goal arises, which is reviewed, modified, then accepted. Yes information is collected, based on previous typical methods and biases. Although, I am starting to see your point, as most of this is somehow automatic, with "me" having a smaller function that I previously was aware of!

Did you decide your personality which was open to taking and applying all that? And did you decide the circumstances necessary to trigger that to happen?

My personality is generally as it has developed by itself, although over the years I have attempted to modify it. No, the circumstances were inputs, which triggered the responses.

Now you could say 'No, but out of all that, I chose it,' but what exactly did you choose if even the choosing comes from genetics, personality, circumstances, mood/thoughts in the moment, and so on?

I am starting to see your point, but my view is that I have the ability choose as I am quite good at creating options, reviewing and comparing options, then choosing the "best" option based on selection criteria. I know there are feelings as part of this (likely more than I am aware of), not just logic, but I do have a strong impression that "I choose", as well as reject options.

There can be control of attention, but why or how does that mean there is a doer?

You could say the earth's climate manages the rain, but does it really or is it up to the right conditions to line up?

So is something controlled or is that simply how it is framed in thought, which creates self/other, inside/outside, doing/not doing?

My view is that "I" am the doer/controller/manager/reviewer, that controls attention. I don't know why or how.

I will do your pointer exercise in the next post. Let's see how I go!

Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

I will do your pointer exercise in the next post. Let's see how I go!

OK, I will answer what you posted so far.

I need to work on this, it's just beyond my perceptual resolution to see the answer.

Isn't going with the urge another urge?

Look at different urges/impulses during the day. Can you predict each one of them before even a hint of knowing where it will go?

What makes the ability to choose with urge to go with different from the urge arising?

A positive urge is generated to create a goal, then a goal arises, which is reviewed, modified, then accepted. Yes information is collected, based on previous typical methods and biases. Although, I am starting to see your point, as most of this is somehow automatic, with "me" having a smaller function that I previously was aware of!

'Me' has no function at all :)

What you wrote in the above quote is a description of what happens. This urge to create a goal is assumed to be created by 'self', but see if you can find it, and can you find the link between the urge and a 'self'?

My personality is generally as it has developed by itself, although over the years I have attempted to modify it. No, the circumstances were inputs, which triggered the responses.

Isn't this modification also a part of the conditions already at play?

What creates this distinction that suddenly you can modify it?

Another personality might watch sports, or another might dance, yet another might write about it.

I am starting to see your point, but my view is that I have the ability choose as I am quite good at creating options, reviewing and comparing options, then choosing the "best" option based on selection criteria. I know there are feelings as part of this (likely more than I am aware of), not just logic, but I do have a strong impression that "I choose", as well as reject options.

Thank you for being honest. This is what we are exploring. It can take repeated looking. And remember, when you look, the absence of an answer is the answer.

Being good at creating, reviewing, and comparing options is also included in the brain, conditioning, that is there.

This 'I choose' is added after, which likely comes with a 'sense' of self, such as sensations somewhere in the body. We'll explore this in a future pointer.

For now, just be curious about this choosing and how it works.

My view is that "I" am the doer/controller/manager/reviewer, that controls attention. I don't know why or how.

That's absolutely fine :)

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri, and thank you. I am enjoying this and learning.

Isn't going with the urge another urge?

I laughed hysterically and fell back in my chair when I read this! Thank you, I can see that now!

Look at different urges/impulses during the day. Can you predict each one of them before even a hint of knowing where it will go?

I can see this now: No.

What makes the ability to choose with urge to go with different from the urge arising?

If I have an urge (a) (and an aware of it), then an alternative urge (b) (which i am aware of, and can compare), then another urge (c) arises which drives the selection between a or b. Choosing is also an urge. The difference is that the choosing urge is conditioned by historical habits/goals/values. But all urges are, so there is little difference!

This urge to create a goal is assumed to be created by 'self', but see if you can find it, and can you find the link between the urge and a 'self'?

I can't find it, but the "self" seems to be a "software overlay" that "I" look through. No link, the self appears to be a "software addon" of perception, which simplifies the mental processes, and hides the detail, such as urge related processes.

Isn't this modification also a part of the conditions already at play?

What creates this distinction that suddenly you can modify it?

Yes.
I have a sense of free will where I can be an architect, and redesign my goals, values and behaviours. Which means I can redesign my mind/body and achieve a new vision.


Thank you, I will do the pointer exercise now.

Kind Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

I laughed hysterically and fell back in my chair when I read this! Thank you, I can see that now!

Great :-D

If I have an urge (a) (and an aware of it), then an alternative urge (b) (which i am aware of, and can compare), then another urge (c) arises which drives the selection between a or b. Choosing is also an urge. The difference is that the choosing urge is conditioned by historical habits/goals/values. But all urges are, so there is little difference!

Yes. Exactly!

I can't find it, but the "self" seems to be a "software overlay" that "I" look through. No link, the self appears to be a "software addon" of perception, which simplifies the mental processes, and hides the detail, such as urge related processes.

Or that is what it tells you. I've saved this in my notes. We can come back to this in a later pointer.

I have a sense of free will where I can be an architect, and redesign my goals, values and behaviours. Which means I can redesign my mind/body and achieve a new vision.

There can be a sense of choice, or a feeling of choice, but that doesn't mean there is someone choosing. The pointer exercise will look closer on decision making and choice.

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri,

Here is my response to the pointing exercise.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

"...choose the qualities?": No, the qualities arose when looking.
"...appear by themselves?": Yes, the longer I looked, the qualities arose.
"...preferences?" It seems no, they pop up by themselves. An urge made the choice.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No, and no.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

LMAO!!! No! and no. The urge did the choosing.


I

n step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Hahahahah, I am seeing this now...
No, no. The urge did the choosing, I can see it now. It's actually amusing to see for the first time!

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?

"...can a feeling choose?": I don't think so, as the feeling is a result of a calculation process.
"Is it in the nature of a feeling to choose?": As above.


Very interesting, thank you. These exercises are working, as it seems my direct experience perceptional resolution is high enough to start to see what you are pointing too!

Kind Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

Hello Nate (almost midnight here!)

No, no. The urge did the choosing, I can see it now. It's actually amusing to see for the first time!

Yes, it is :)

Very interesting, thank you. These exercises are working, as it seems my direct experience perceptional resolution is high enough to start to see what you are pointing too!

That's awesome. Sometimes it takes repeated looking, just like 'you' did.

Going to bed here, but I'll leave you with this one on the sense of self.

So let’s say that you've lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there.

You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken.

This is just like that. You may have gotten glimpses that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this sense of self. Not by thinking about it, but by feeling it. Just notice how it shows up.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[Nate]

There can be a sense of choice, or a feeling of choice, but that doesn't mean there is someone choosing. The pointer exercise will look closer on decision making and choice.

Yesssssssssssssss, I am seeing this ever more clearly! Thank you so much!

Since we are communicated in written format, we are using "I" alot. Does this reinforce the "I" belief, just due to language repetition? Perhaps we should use language to express "I" differently, which may help this whole process? eg "I see what you are saying" could be written differently eg "The experience was observed"? And perhaps "my" everyday language should also change similarly?

Kind Regards,
N8

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri,

FYI when I first read these questions, I found it amusing for a reason I don't know! Perhaps "my self" is using laughing as a defense mechanism so it's not discovered as spurious!

Does the sense of self have a location?

Yes, in my head.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No. It's more like a software layer, that is not physical.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Yes. It talks alot, using language in my mind, silently, with minor tongue movements sometimes, as if my mouth is about to say it out loud. It chatters with nonsense, as well as "me" talking to myself when "I" am constructing thoughts/ideas/goals/options/dialogues. It also criticizes "me" and circumstances. It feels like the majority of "my sense of self" is silent verbal in the mind.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Unknown. It's been happening all day every day for years. It seems normal. It seems as if there is:

Body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. But, an additional element of "self" which is the experiencer and controller. It's like a software layer.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

I think I can only answer in terms of my sense of it's function and results:

1. It's like an overlay over direct perception, which funnels direct experience into a story of "me".
2. It calculates a difference between "what is" and "what should/could be", and then causes mostly negative emotion.
3. It feels emotions, and assigns emotions to "me", as an owner.
4. It creates a filter, which makes me look at myself and the world through a primitive story, which reduces awareness of the present moment.
5. It feels like it's the core controller/manager/feeler/sufferer, similar to the main character in a movie.
6. It craves for reality to be different.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Hmmm... none of the above, yet my "self" becomes and identifies with all of these.

Kind Regards,
N8







What is found?

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri,

FYI when I first read these questions, I found it amusing for a reason I don't know! Perhaps "my self" is using laughing as a defense mechanism so it's not discovered as spurious!

Does the sense of self have a location?

Yes, in my head.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No. It's more like a software layer, that is not physical.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Yes. It talks alot, using language in my mind, silently, with minor tongue movements sometimes, as if my mouth is about to say it out loud. It chatters with nonsense, as well as "me" talking to myself when "I" am constructing thoughts/ideas/goals/options/dialogues. It also criticizes "me" and circumstances. It feels like the majority of "my sense of self" is silent verbal in the mind.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Unknown. It's been happening all day every day for years. It seems normal. It seems as if there is:

Body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. But, an additional element of "self" which is the experiencer and controller. It's like a software layer.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

I think I can only answer in terms of my sense of it's function and results:

1. It's like an overlay over direct perception, which funnels direct experience into a story of "me".
2. It calculates a difference between "what is" and "what should/could be", and then causes mostly negative emotion.
3. It feels emotions, and assigns emotions to "me", as an owner.
4. It creates a filter, which makes me look at myself and the world through a primitive story, which reduces awareness of the present moment.
5. It feels like it's the core controller/manager/feeler/sufferer, similar to the main character in a movie.
6. It craves for reality to be different.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Hmmm... none of the above, yet my "self" becomes and identifies with all of these.

Kind Regards,
N8







What is found?

[Nate]

Good Morning Henri,

FYI when I first read these questions, I found it amusing for a reason I don't know! Perhaps "my self" is using laughing as a defense mechanism so it's not discovered as spurious!

Does the sense of self have a location?

Yes, in my head.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No. It's more like a software layer, that is not physical.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

Yes. It talks alot, using language in my mind, silently, with minor tongue movements sometimes, as if my mouth is about to say it out loud. It chatters with nonsense, as well as "me" talking to myself when "I" am constructing thoughts/ideas/goals/options/dialogues. It also criticizes "me" and circumstances. It feels like the majority of "my sense of self" is silent verbal in the mind.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Unknown. It's been happening all day every day for years. It seems normal. It seems as if there is:

Body, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness. But, an additional element of "self" which is the experiencer and controller. It's like a software layer.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

I think I can only answer in terms of my sense of it's function and results:

1. It's like an overlay over direct perception, which funnels direct experience into a story of "me".
2. It calculates a difference between "what is" and "what should/could be", and then causes mostly negative emotion.
3. It feels emotions, and assigns emotions to "me", as an owner.
4. It creates a filter, which makes me look at myself and the world through a primitive story, which reduces awareness of the present moment.
5. It feels like it's the core controller/manager/feeler/sufferer, similar to the main character in a movie.
6. It craves for reality to be different.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Hmmm... none of the above, yet my "self" becomes and identifies with all of these.

What is found?

It cannot be found, as it is my primary perceptional lens eg a camera can't look at itself.

Kind Regards,
N8

[Bluejay]

Since we are communicated in written format, we are using "I" alot. Does this reinforce the "I" belief, just due to language repetition? Perhaps we should use language to express "I" differently, which may help this whole process? eg "I see what you are saying" could be written differently eg "The experience was observed"? And perhaps "my" everyday language should also change similarly?

No, language is not a problem once the self is seen through. It's simply an efficient use of language, especially with people who are not into awakening.

FYI when I first read these questions, I found it amusing for a reason I don't know! Perhaps "my self" is using laughing as a defense mechanism so it's not discovered as spurious!

Laughter usually follows shifts into no self, so nothing to be worried about :)

No. It's more like a software layer, that is not physical.

This is a thought if it doesn't refer to any senses.

Now, the reason I wanted you to outline the sense of self was for this next pointer, which is to separate the sense of self into the five physical senses (see, hear, feel, smell, taste) and thought.

Here's a video example of how you can do it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwAVOYVMac

For example, when there's a thought "The self is a software layer, it is not physical," you break it down:

- The thought "the self is a software layer", is that the self?

Then you would likely have objections like "No, of course not, it's not physical," to which the response is "So where is the evidence that the self exists?"

It might be this funneling like you said, which would help you go deeper into what it feels like, such as being in your head. Then you would separate it:

- Image of the head, is that the self?
- Sensations in the 'head', are those the self? Do the sensations know anything about a self?
- The thought 'Self is in the head', is that the self?

You keep going like this with whatever comes up.

I'll leave this here. Please write out your process (or a part of it) here so we can explore.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[Nate]

My 2 posts at 12:31 were glitches, I can't delete them, can you please delete them?