Natestari

[Natestari]

Hmm… it feels separate. Like I know when it’s on and when it’s off. I like when it’s on and ‘Natalie’ is out of the way. Phew! It’s not separate… it’s everything…it’s just not always like that.

[Natestari]

Centre-wise….feels like it comes out of my eyes but feels from my solar plexus

[Elad]

Hmm… it feels separate. Like I know when it’s on and when it’s off. I like when it’s on and ‘Natalie’ is out of the way. Phew! It’s not separate… it’s everything…it’s just not always like that.

Did I get you right that you saw that it's in fact always there, not separated, including not separated from thoughts and experiences of Natalie?

You didn't answer all questions, in particular the ones about agency and control. Please review my last message and make sure to answer every point, thank you.

Centre-wise….feels like it comes out of my eyes but feels from my solar plexus

So there are places of experienced intensity and maybe identification. Fine and normal. However, does that REALLY show that this is where presence come from and that presence have a location? Can you really find any place or anything that is not "part of" presence? Can you find any borders in the presence?

After answering all that, ask and answer as lovingly as possible from intution: How does my heart feel with this process at this point? Is there anything my heart needs or wants?

[Natestari]

Hi Elad,

So i've reviewed the questions again and here are my answers:

a) in direct experience, It can't be separated from awareness and from all of experience, it's all of it.

b) Regarding the centre, i initially felt there was more intensity from solar plexus/behind the eyes....this has dissipated, i can't find it now.

c) I don't control it - it's happening by itself, it's beyond 'me'. It's expansive.

d) this presence/vastness, is there no real reason to call it noun (a subject or object) rather then a verb (presencing/vastnessing) and it is fair to say that THIS is beyond subject/object, noun/verb

e) After looking into these questions I feel more awareness that everything is just happening all at once with no separation...and that there is no control over any of it. It just is.

My heart feels warm with this process. Accepting that all is just happening and it's really nothing to do with me at all. More acceptance....so a new feeling of be able to love more of what is. That's new.

[Elad]

Wonderful! Lots of clarity. Please keep attending to the heart and tell me again how it feels tomorrow 🤍

[Natestari]

Hi Elad,

Heart feels good today. Open. Non judgemental. Free.

Natalie.

[Elad]

Hi Elad,

Heart feels good today. Open. Non judgemental. Free.

Natalie.

Dear Natalie, wonderful. Please answer these following questions. Only answer what you can directly see and what seems really clear to you, nothing from theory or belief systems. If you feel something is unclear, just say it is so and how it is so. These are questions we ask in LU when it seems like the seeing is happening. If you feel it is premature when you read them, just let me know what makes you feel so, what is not clear, and we will attend to that.



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past couple of days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Natestari]

Thanks Elad,

1)So there still feels like there is a separate self at times ....but it's not constant. There are moments when i am everything all at once, and then mind will come in and the separate self seems to be there. But there is awareness beyond that - that is always there - so actually, as i write this, i see that awareness was always there and always is. So no separate self.

2) The illusion of separate self evolves over time as conditioning happens in childhood and the environment may feel unsafe or apparent needs must be met, so adaptations begin. When aspects seem preferred, those aspects become exaggerated and the personality/character and mask arrive. I believe this starts in early childhood. So for Natalie, being a performer was encouraged and a low mood wasn't acceptable, so the mask of being fun happened which became exhausting. As beliefs have been undone, the character/personality with all the judgements and beliefs and traits is eroding and coming back to it's true nature. Phew!

3) It feels beautiful to see this. To actually recognise the huge changes that have happened in the last 12 months, and how just being is such an under-rated state. We are all so busy trying to be something that we really aren't. Inner peace is it. It's not constant but it's there more than not. The difference from us starting this dialogue is just more seeing it. Experience was happening but the dialogue is deepening the experience. I'm also looking around a lot more.....so much more present and it's becoming more and more - longer periods.

4) Can you clarify what you mean by this question please Elad around what pushed me over and made me look?

5) Regarding decision, intention, free will, choice and control - we really don't have any, we just think we have. If I had that, i wouldn't have done some of the stuff i have done. Like in the moment, the apparent moment of decision, even if you feel you are ruminating, even that isn't a decision. You were only ever going to make the decision you made. No free will.
I guess as a whole, things are happening and the only thing you are responsible for is your peace of mind and how you choose to see the situation - radical acceptance or to go against what is, which essentially going to disrupt your peace of mind. I believe a higher power (God) and life is happening and it's really nothing to do with us. It's predetermined. If you are meant to be in the car accident, you are meant to be in it and there is no point regretting setting off that bit earlier. In the same vain, if you are late, accept that too because that could be the reason you aren't in the car accident.....that kind of thing. We don't know what anything is for. Trying to defend against what is is the cause of all suffering. What i am responsible for is shifting my perception. Choosing to see things differently if i'm not in peace. And relinquishing control.

Another example - I didn't drink any alcohol for a week because i couldn't stomach it even though usually i like a drink once or twice a week. It felt unusual - i thought i was possibly over alcohol and perhaps didn't want it anymore. Then on Monday, wine happened.....i liked it :-). There was no choice in it,

Deep gratitude in the shift thats happening here. The initial idea of becoming no one was terrifying and it's actually
incredibly beautiful!

[Elad]

Lovely Natalie, just a few questions here:

1) Do you actually in direct experience even have control over if you accept or don't accept what is happening? Is there any controller to decide if the understanding and equanimity to accept, is there or is not there in a given moment? If a misunderstanding that "this shouldn't be happening" is there in a given moment, could we choose for it not to be there in that moment?

Or is this all an organic process of the whole, even the misunderstanding, understanding, not accepting and accepting, and so awakening is also happening by itself with no separate self?

2) This "awareness that was always there" is that in any way separate from experience and the rest of life, or would it be fair to say that it is all one whole with no separate self and no separate awareness, as seen in direct experience?

3) As for the question of "what was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look" this question comes from LU writing. What would be helpful here is for you to share what in this exchange we did together and in this process that helped you move from the sense of unclarity and frustration you expressed when we began, to the clarity and peace that has become more and more pronounced in your sharings over the last days?

[Elad]

Oh, a little more clarification: It is exceedingly normal to still have a sense of self after seeing. Some would say it is universal and you need to have access to it to function on the human level. Experiences of oneness for most of us come and go. So the seeing through the illusion of self does not mean to experience no sense of self whatsoever on-goingly but rather that it is clearly seen that the sense of self is a kind of practical illusion that is constructed by non-self elements and that no truly separate self exists.

In light of this, is there or has there ever been a separate self/controller/doer?

This video from one of the founders of LU helps clarify this last point further:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=zon7rVnOb2Jq6iZd

[Natestari]

Hi Elad,

1) Hmm so i think a reaction can happen that feels unconscious but i think there is a choice in looking at what's happening and how to react to it, albeit after the event. Sometimes it takes you by surprise but the more conscious you become, the more you can watch as an observer and not get involved in the happening. However this is still just a happening - like an evolving more into acceptance of the present moment, but if there is a feeling it shouldn't be happening, thats just happening too. With awareness, that can be looked at though and can be seen another way. This is all organic process. An evolving so awakening is also happening by itself with no separate self.


2) Not sure on this one - So awakening is happening by itself but the 'separate self' that feels it's separate can be searching...wanting to awaken - unless thats consciousness too, giving the nudge?? It feels like theres 2 at this point.

3) So what has helped me move from the sense of unclarity and frustration I expressed when we began, to the clarity and peace that has become more and more pronounced in my sharings over the last days is that i feel like i get it. I wasn't sure about what the Gate even was before i signed up. I was recommended to do it. I purposely didn't look into it as i didn't want to try and work out what it was about. I think i was worried the not knowing would go against my process but these questions have eased me into the process with an understanding that i'm in this process and there's nothing to get wrong. And its really shown me that i am having these experiences of oneness. Good to know that it doesnt mean i'll ever be in that state all the time. I can release any need/expectation on that one.


Thank you for the video - totally resonates. I've spent the last year undoing and handing over beliefs. And i also have days where i'm in such peace/no thought and then a day of what i call 'durge'. I now welcome those days as i know it's opportunity to release more darkness to light.

In light of this, there has never been a separate self/controller/doer - it's an illusion.

[Natestari]

Just to make you aware Elad - i'm on a retreat from Friday morning to Sunday night with no access to the outside illusion so it's likely there will be a delay in my responses.

[Elad]

Hi Natalie, seems like there is still some things that can get clearer in your answer:

1) Look in direct experience, not in ideas and concept, can awareness in ANY WAY be found separate from this whole, all of experience?

2) Given that there is no separate self at all and there never were, is there anything that can choose or control anything, or is "choice" and "control" just stories we put on top of the flow of the whole?

Try this:


Think of a number between 1 and 53. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared? Did you decide the moment of choice? Do it several times.

Now do a whole sequence, numbers and words, something like this:

14, 34, 2, 15, bum, funny, 3, happy, sad, love, lucy, 2, 3, 17

Be still and attentive between a new number/word appearing. Is there a controller or chooser that makes it appear? There might be the experience of themes in the words, or numbers, etc. Also if that happens, is there a separate self/doer/chooser that made exactly this theme appear now? Is there any choice happening really, or is there a spontaneous unfold and on top stories of choice?

Write to me about what you see.

Feel free to answer after the retreat and have a good time there!
Elad

[Elad]

Please also do this exercise to clarify further. Again, feel free to do it after the retreat.

Stream Exercise

Imagine for a moment a scene, one of a little mountain stream which is tumbling down a hillside gully, not far from its source. It has been raining and so the level is quite high. Consider in your mind's eye, if you can, how it flows to the right over a little rock (where, had the level been lower, it would probably have gone around the rock), then the flow goes to the left over a tree bow, and then slows a little in a broader place, before splashing over a small cascade into a pool, and so on down the mountain side. Does it choose any of its directions? Is it even really a separate entity different from the water deposited in it, the rocks, the depressions in the ground etc? Is it even the same entity moment by moment, or more the product of weather conditions and water, like an ever-changing pattern?

1. Can you find anywhere where 'insert name' autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

2. Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

3. Can anything be found for which 'insert name' is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

[Elad]

Just to make you aware Elad - i'm on a retreat from Friday morning to Sunday night with no access to the outside illusion so it's likely there will be a delay in my responses.

Hi Natalie, it's been a few days, how are things moving?
:) Elad