Wondering...

[LizLibU]

Thanks for your patience with my reply. I was out of internet range for a few days.

This idea that you can control life is part of the knowledge and concepts learned.

And then a thought comes in and labels other thoughts and say it should be different.

Is there a 'you' in any of this?

There is no predicting or controlling thoughts, so is there controlling "I" or "me"?

I can't find a 'me' in any of this but 'I' still believe 'I' should be able to do something about all of my thoughts, change the trajectory of 'my' life. Seemingly, predicting of controlling thoughts doesn’t happen and still, 'I' believe 'I' am making it all happen and generallly that 'I' should be doing it differently. Are the decisions about what to do or not do, how to proceed with life just happening??? Didn't 'I' decide that now was the right time to respond here? How do we both take and not take responsibility for our actions based on thoughts? Is my worry about any of this just an attempt to keep the nonexistent 'me' alive?

[Bluejay]

I can't find a 'me' in any of this but 'I' still believe 'I' should be able to do something about all of my thoughts, change the trajectory of 'my' life

Yes, it's a habit that has been practiced for many years.

What I'd like you to do now is break down this sense of "I" in to building blocks (5 senses + thought).

For example, if I feel like there's a sense of "I" behind my eyes, perhaps the building blocks for that experience would be sensations behind the eyes, thought that says 'there's an "I" here' and an image of what the inside of my head looks like.

So this "I" that believes things, break it down and write down how the experience is created, just like if you'd have to teach an alien how to have the sense of an "I".

Here's a list of the building blocks:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Seemingly, predicting of controlling thoughts doesn’t happen and still, 'I' believe 'I' am making it all happen and generallly that 'I' should be doing it differently.

Yes, and can you predict this thought that says "I believe"? Even it is happening.

Are the decisions about what to do or not do, how to proceed with life just happening??? Didn't 'I' decide that now was the right time to respond here?

Did you? Look for yourself.

What conditions had to be in place for the decision to arise to respond right this moment? Your genetics, personality, circumstances, maybe food, weather, having a computer/phone, knowing how to use it, language, and so on.

Do you even know where the decision to post came from?

There may be a thought after the fact that says "I chose this," but any thought is already in the past. Neuroscience confirms this with the fact that decisions become conscious 2-6 seconds after they're made.

Interesting video on this: https://vimeo.com/90101368

Can you find the exact decision point for deciding?

Now you might say you don't control everything 100% but you can redirect, but that itself is the illusion of control. What decides when and where to redirect? Is that just not another thought you cannot predict that arises from past conditioning and current circumstances?

How do we both take and not take responsibility for our actions based on thoughts? Is my worry about any of this just an attempt to keep the nonexistent 'me' alive?

It is not an attempt by anyone, but simply thoughts arising from conditioning.

Responsibility happens by itself, just like a mother cat takes care of her kittens, and there are also some cats that don't take care of their young. It is programmed into the system, or not.

This is the whole thing about the separate self; there is a belief that there is something/someone separate from life that has free will and can decide whatever it wants.

Any questions? Ask away :)

[LizLibU]

Here's a list of the building blocks:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

The building blocks of the sense of "I"
Sitting here I feel there is an "I" writing this post.
I see "my" phone and fingers typing.
I hear the fan in the room.
I feel thumb taps on screen and tight jaw.
I taste inside of mouth.
I smell neutral scent.
There is thought "I" am typing.

Believing in an "I" is a VERY ingrained habit- yes!

I love this-
Thoughts are happening from conditioning.
Responsibility happens by itself.
Conditions are in place leading toward what occurs.

The neuroscience video was fascinating. The belief in making something happen that has already been set in motion to happen.

My conditioning tells me it would be helpful to re-remind myself when thoughts arise, "There’s another thought you could not have predicted that is occurring due to past conditioning and current circumstances."

Is everything just like the weather arising?

[Bluejay]

The building blocks of the sense of "I"
Sitting here I feel there is an "I" writing this post.
I see "my" phone and fingers typing.
I hear the fan in the room.
I feel thumb taps on screen and tight jaw.
I taste inside of mouth.
I smell neutral scent.
There is thought "I" am typing.

Great!

Now watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwAVOYVMac

Follow along with the inquiry and then come back here and do it on each of the building blocks you listed above.

Please write out your process here.

My conditioning tells me it would be helpful to re-remind myself when thoughts arise, "There’s another thought you could not have predicted that is occurring due to past conditioning and current circumstances."

That's fine :)

Is everything just like the weather arising?

You could say that

[LizLibU]

Unfindability- thank you!!

Keep looking...."like a child looks for an Easter egg". Not the habiting of what I think I know but experiencing.

Follow along with the inquiry and then come back here and do it on each of the building blocks you listed above.

There was first noticing and then further experiencing:

Seeing: coaster, cup, pen, flowers, water, glass, blocks, wood, foam, rock, table, metal, window, tree, humming bird, sky, statue, wood pecker

then:
color, shape, line, texture, density, shadow, angle

Hearing: birds, dog, airplane, door opening, gate closing, squirrel, wood pecker

then:
chirp, bark, motor, door, squeek, peck

I feel/see that even this is labeling...

Feeling: buttocks askew on chair, back against chair back, legs on seat, feet on cushions, forearm on wood

then:
pressure, contact, space

Tasting: honey

then: mouth

Smelling: air

then: neutral smell

Thoughts arising: I am noticing these things. I will have to poop soon.

then: pressure, movement

When I did the exercise I felt most bound in my eyes, jaw, forehead- the habit of me feels like it is there and "I" am holding tightly to it. Can "I" be with the sensation of that? welcoming, allowing, being...the weather is emerging. The habit of "I" thinks it can hold or manipulate it but the "I" is unfindable.

There is being or thinking about the self.....selfing. The habit of selfing. I will sit for awhile and steep.

[Bluejay]

You kind of went off and did your own thing here, but it's good that you noticed all that.

So with the unfindable inquiry...

When I did the exercise I felt most bound in my eyes, jaw, forehead- the habit of me feels like it is there and "I" am holding tightly to it. Can "I" be with the sensation of that? welcoming, allowing, being...the weather is emerging. The habit of "I" thinks it can hold or manipulate it but the "I" is unfindable.

If there is a sensation that the "I" is in the eyes, you would separate those into building blocks / senses.

For example:

The thought 'the "I" is in the eyes', is that the I?
The sensation in the eyes, is that I?
The image of the eyes, is that I?

Does that make sense?

Maybe all this just didn't come across in your post, so let me know.

[LizLibU]

If there is a sensation that the "I" is in the eyes, you would separate those into building blocks / senses.

For example:

The thought 'the "I" is in the eyes', is that the I?
The sensation in the eyes, is that I?
The image of the eyes, is that I?

Does that make sense?

Yes, this makes sense. I think I just didn't explain myself well. Wasn't trying to do my own thing so not sure what happened.

With each sensation or thought, checking to see- is that the me I think "I" am?

With each aspect...none of it is the thing I am looking for.

Does that clarify?

Thanks for your assistance,
Liz

[Bluejay]

Yes, this makes sense. I think I just didn't explain myself well. Wasn't trying to do my own thing so not sure what happened.

Yes, I figured something like this happened :)

With each sensation or thought, checking to see- is that the me I think "I" am?

With each aspect...none of it is the thing I am looking for.

Does that clarify?

Exactly. With each sense (see, hear, feel, smell, taste) or thought, you look if that's the "I".

And then you said:

When I did the exercise I felt most bound in my eyes, jaw, forehead- the habit of me feels like it is there and "I" am holding tightly to it. Can "I" be with the sensation of that? welcoming, allowing, being...the weather is emerging. The habit of "I" thinks it can hold or manipulate it but the "I" is unfindable.

There is being or thinking about the self.....selfing. The habit of selfing. I will sit for awhile and steep.

Did you further explore all this with the inquiry? Any obstacles?

What did you find?

[LizLibU]

I have been taking my time with this. When I inquire "I" am not there. The obstacle is my belief in the thought over my experience of nothing being there. Staying with the experience vs. my thinking about experience. I am continuing to look, continuing to experience.

[Bluejay]

When I inquire "I" am not there. The obstacle is my belief in the thought over my experience of nothing being there. Staying with the experience vs. my thinking about experience. I am continuing to look, continuing to experience.

Thought is part of the experience. The belief is also included in nothing being here. It is simply what is happening in this moment.

So here we can again look at the building blocks / separate the senses:

Who or what is believing the thought over experience?

What is thought in direct experience?

Who is continuing to look? Please write down what building blocks are required for this (see, hear, feel, smell, taste, thought)

[LizLibU]

Who or what is believing the thought over experience?

I don't know. I cannot find someone who is believing thought over experience. Thought arises, "There is someone looking." I don't find someone continuing to look...looking is happening.

What is thought in direct experience?

Arisings

Who is continuing to look?

I don't know.

Please write down what building blocks are required for this (see, hear, feel, smell, taste, thought)

I see an image of a self- my body in the chair.
I hear the words in my head, "I am gripping/clenching/holding on."
I feel jaw and face.
I hear the words "tight, stuck".
I see the imagined vision of myself.
I feel the sensations tight/stuck.
I smell the air.
I taste mouth.
I think, "This is me. I am here. I am doing it wrong."

There is the thought "stuck".
I feel energy in cheeks and base of skull.
Is that the me I am looking for?
No, just sensation.
Thought, " I am not letting go."
Then, "Who is the "I" who would let go?"

Thought, "I am frustrated."

Who or what is frustrated?

Who is continuing to look?

The space where senses + thoughts arise

[Bluejay]

I don't find someone continuing to look...looking is happening.

Is looking separate from that which is looked upon? Are there two things?

The space where senses + thoughts arise

What is this space in direct experience?

I see an image of a self- my body in the chair.
I hear the words in my head, "I am gripping/clenching/holding on."
I feel jaw and face.
I hear the words "tight, stuck".
I see the imagined vision of myself.
I feel the sensations tight/stuck.
I smell the air.
I taste mouth.
I think, "This is me. I am here. I am doing it wrong."

Did you find an "I" in anything in this list?

[LizLibU]

Is looking separate from that which is looked upon? Are there two things?

No, if just looking there is not more than pne thing.

What is this space in direct experience?

The space, all space, everything and also nothing.

Did you find an "I" in anything in this list?

I did not find an "I" in my experience.

[Bluejay]

No, if just looking there is not more than pne thing.

In your everyday life, do you feel like there is an "I" doing, thinking, experiencing?

I think, "This is me. I am here. I am doing it wrong."

Why is it wrong? What would happen if you did it right?

Thought, " I am not letting go."
Then, "Who is the "I" who would let go?"

Thought, "I am frustrated."

What is it that is going to happen if everything is let go of successfully?

You can also bring KI into this. Frustration and "I am doing it wrong" are landings. What is the emotion at the core of those?

[LizLibU]

In your everyday life, do you feel like there is an "I" doing, thinking, experiencing?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.When I experience, I do not find it. The thinking feels like me. Trying to form these words...if I pause and consider vs. just responding. But who is considering? When I can re-remember/feel presence I sense that it it is all taking place.

Why is it wrong? What would happen if you did it right?

This is a good question! It would be exactly the same! Only the imagined not good enough self desires this to be different. It is just what is happening, the thought/feeling coming through. So then when "I" feel lost or overwhelmed or whatever, again, this is the magined me. Quiet by myself I sense this more. With more life happening around me- being in the world interacting I notice more sensation and thought.with the more of it, it feels more real- there is something right/wrong, better/worse- in my mind though...in thoughts.

What is it that is going to happen if everything is let go of successfully?

If everything is let go successfully nothing will happen. I have the belief that perception will change.

You can also bring KI into this. Frustration and "I am doing it wrong" are landings. What is the emotion at the core of those?

What is at the core? I just heard someone speak about landings yesterday that made me aware of this habit as a landing.

Seeing it as a landing helps open up more curiosity.

Hurt. Fear. Overwhelm, Despair.