I Do So Exist!

[zenkitties]

I'm getting hung up on the collection of cells, which is labelled "Charles," because I'm quite certain that it exists.

We aren't here to dispute the existence of cells that comprise of a human body. Need not worry about whether those exist or not. We are here to investigate this label that is called Charles. What is this actually

Thoughts are just electrical impulses in the collection of cells labelled "brain," but they do not exist apart from that.

Are they? and You know this how? Have you experienced this yourself. The brain conjures up thoughts, are you so sure?

Lets investigate whether this is true, or if thoughts are just happening based on environment, circumstances, and conditioning? This might point you in the direction where this false sense of I is coming from.

[cfriedline]

Lets investigate whether this is true, or if thoughts are just happening based on environment, circumstances, and conditioning? This might point you in the direction where this false sense of I is coming from.

I don't think we disagree here. I didn't mean to suggest that the brain is necessarily responsible for the thoughts. When I said thoughts were just electrical impulses in the brain, I was just talking about what they are. I can agree that thoughts may just be reactions to stimulus in the environment. My eyes detect movement and the brain processes the information so I "see" the cat run across the living room. Etc.

So you are saying that thoughts are only reactions to stimulus--that they can never be created spontaneously by the brain?

[zenkitties]

I apologize if i ignore some of your questions sometimes like the one above but that has nothing to do with the inquiry we're trying to find out.

My job is to keep you on the task at hand.

What is the "I" is claiming to see. Stealing sights seeing and claiming it as its own. There is just seeing, and then something claims it afterwords.

What is this?

[cfriedline]

What is the "I" is claiming to see. Stealing sights seeing and claiming it as its own. There is just seeing, and then something claims it afterwords.

What is this?

I will have to think about this. I just wanted to send a quick note to let you know that I am on my way to Washington DC for a couple days, so my responses will be few and far between. Thank you!

[zenkitties]

my pleasure, please do investigate it. Really look at sight and see how its working, whats actually going on when seeing happens.

and all while having a safe and good trip to Washington D.C. :)

[cfriedline]

What is the "I" is claiming to see. Stealing sights seeing and claiming it as its own. There is just seeing, and then something claims it afterwords.

What is this?

The "I" is the conscious part of the being labelled, "Charles." It is the self-aware part of my mind. Just thought, perhaps, but how does it maintain a consistent identity?

[zenkitties]

The "I" is the conscious part of the being labelled, "Charles."

I think you are misunderstanding here. I isn't any different than any other thought, how can the thought of conscious and the thought of I be conscious of itself?

Like the old saying of, "Can a knife cut itself?", "Can an eye see itself?"

It is the self-aware part of my mind.

whose mind? where is this my, whos the posessor?

Just thought, perhaps, but how does it maintain a consistent identity?

Very good question! how does any thought hold consistency? It attaches to the experiencing of things such as seeing, touching, tasting, etc. and then latches on. Thus comes the apparent consistency. (its not actually consistant but thats for another day haha)

[cfriedline]

Something is doing the attaching. Isn't that "me?" If not, what is it?

[zenkitties]

Something is doing the attaching.

What is doing the attaching if you are assuming something is. Does there have to be something for things to attach? Think of two beads of water running down a shower next to each other. Do they need a sense of self to attach to each other to become one whole water bead?

Isn't that "me?" If not, what is it?

what is me? can you point this me out anywhere in reality? Give yourself the evidence to tilt the wheel either way, find out!

Sorry if i'm doing the ol answer a question with a question, but you aren't looking and investigating it. You want me to answer all the quetsions without looking for yourself. No one comes to a realization through secondary knowledge, just more concepts and beliefs to put on your shelf collection.

[cfriedline]

No, things don't need a sense of self to attach. Water drops in the shower don't need a sense of self, though I would argue that we can't prove they DON'T have a sense of self. :)

But in the case of "me," there does seem to be a sense of self. I know this because I am me and I have a sense of self. I can't show you "me." I don't know where it is. I can't touch it. If I can't see it or touch it, perhaps it doesn't truly exist--though I would argue that we don't necessarily have to see or touch something for it to exist.

So, I can't prove it to you. I can even see how this "I" does not truly exist--that it is only a thought. But then I don't know what's next. I'm not sure how everything is supposed to change. Whether there is an "I" or not in reality, I think there is.

[zenkitties]

But in the case of "me," there does seem to be a sense of self. I know this because I am me and I have a sense of self.

Sense of me doesn't mean that it is real. A good example of this is a pile of envelopes with a small dab of glue in the middle of each separate envelope. As they are stacked in a pile you can feel this huge lump as if its a marble. Even if you know its just the glue there, you could swear there is a marble, but there is not and you know this.

This is what you're seeing with the SENSE OF SELF. Do you see this? There are thoughts, beliefs, and concepts built up, to give you a sense that you are "Charles." However it isn't so.

I can't show you "me." I don't know where it is. I can't touch it. If I can't see it or touch it, perhaps it doesn't truly exist

You have no evidence of yourself to say or pinpoint you, so why do you go on believing in Santa Clause? the sense again is just a thought after it is felt.

though I would argue that we don't necessarily have to see or touch something for it to exist.

very true, the senses are very fleeting, the mind can be very clever in its reasoning or resistance, which is why we are investigating it, and finding evidence for the self to exist. So far you and I have found none.

I'm not sure how everything is supposed to change. Whether there is an "I" or not in reality, I think there is.

Contradicting thought, it can't find itself yet it still wants to say there IS an I, so which is it?

Look back on all the past experience of you and tell me if you can find anywhere in that experience where you are. Are you anywhere?

the shift is different for everyone, it would be better to let go of any expectation of what should or should not happen. The shift won't happen unless you investigate this "whether there is an I or not in reality, I think there is." is investigated further. You don't exist, you never have.

Whether there is an "I" or not in reality, I think there is.

You're running from doing any work, this again is just another thought not wanting to leave its "grasping" to the false sense of self. You have no evidence that you exist again.

What kind of reaction do you have when you see my above statement; feeling sensation, resistances, body tensions, etc?


You're doing very good btw, thank you for sticking with it.

[cfriedline]

You're running from doing any work, this again is just another thought not wanting to leave its "grasping" to the false sense of self. You have no evidence that you exist again. What kind of reaction do you have when you see my above statement; feeling sensation, resistances, body tensions, etc?

My first reaction was to bristle. I don't feel I'm running from doing any work at all. I'm still trying to figure out what the work IS, but I'm certainly not running from it.

My reaction to "You have no evidence that you exist..." is calm and logical. I agree. There is no evidence. Just thoughts that have accumulated (called "memories?") and have become attached. But attached to what? What is doing the grasping and attaching? I can't see it or touch it. I'm looking, but I don't see anything.

[zenkitties]

But attached to what?

Each other. The I thought, the small misunderstanding snowballed. You know why they say something snowball effecet right. A snowball doesn't start out like a huge mass, but like in the cartoons the more it rolls down the hill the more those small snow flakes attach to each other. Nothing causes this other than that they are snowflakes and that is part of their nature yeah? So this is the same with thoughts.

I can't see it or touch it. I'm looking, but I don't see anything.

Well thats good, because there is nothing there to see, haha. You don't exist. There is literally nothing there, and no one to see it. Thoughts are happening, sight is happening, etc. but no one to do any of it. The story just plays out based on what environment, circumstances, beliefs, concepts, and ideas that have taken hold in that body like a snowflake turns into a snowball. Pretty neat magic trick yeah? :P

My reaction to "You have no evidence that you exist..." is calm and logical. I agree. There is no evidence.

So this same thing for example for Santa Clause, we had no evidence as a child that he existed, what happened to this notion? We drop it right? We see the evidence behind the fact that there is no santa claus.

[cfriedline]

OK. So now I have to get used to this idea, I guess. I'm not sure I feel it yet, but I understand it.

So, what's next?

[zenkitties]

OK. So now I have to get used to this idea, I guess. I'm not sure I feel it yet, but I understand it.

So, what's next?

Now you test it in your everyday life and then get back to me in a day or two. Tell me if you can find evidence of something actually existing. This is experiencing it instead of intellectualizing. Investigate it in your everyday life and really look hard.

Let me know what you find after 48 hours hows that sound? We will continue from there.