an occurrence of the hole removed from the donut

[mpaul3]

For example, let's take volume, do you feel volume, or do you simply feel sensations and then thought overlays an image of size/volume and so on?
Close your eyes and hold the apple. How do you know the volume?

This is interesting, Henri. I held the apple and closed my eyes and stayed with it for a bit. The direct sensations were warmth, waxy smoothness, and a sense of the curved surface under my fingers. Yes, volume would be an interpretation.

[Bluejay]

Excellent :)

Now have a try with waxy smoothness and curved surface. Aren't those also interpretations? Would a newborn baby describe the apple like that?

[mpaul3]

Now have a try with waxy smoothness and curved surface. Aren't those also interpretations? Would a newborn baby describe the apple like that?

Hi Henri, I had to take a trip down memory lane and imagine myself as an infant being held up to engage with the apple on my tree. Little hands reach out to grasp the apple, what is the experience? Hands feel a warm, smooth surface. There are colors. It is hard, not soft like Mom's breast. (Would this automatic comparison be a kind of interpretation?)

[Bluejay]

What I'm trying to get at is that smoothness and curved surface are interpretations. When you close your eyes, all you feel are sensations. Anything added on top of that is thought, same as volume.

Thought adds a mental image of hands, it adds an image of a surface, of smoothness. All of it.

Can you see this?

No problem if not. We keep exploring.

[mpaul3]

What I'm trying to get at is that smoothness and curved surface are interpretations. When you close your eyes, all you feel are sensations. Anything added on top of that is thought, same as volume.

Thought adds a mental image of hands, it adds an image of a surface, of smoothness. All of it.

Can you see this?

I get this, Henri. But, once in the realm of words it seems that everything is interpretation, or pointing to something pre-verbal. Color is an interpretation of visual stimuli, right?

[Bluejay]

I get this, Henri. But, once in the realm of words it seems that everything is interpretation, or pointing to something pre-verbal. Color is an interpretation of visual stimuli, right?

Yes, in the realm of words everything is a concept, one abstraction, or more, removed from reality.

In terms of the visual, we see an image, we can go that far. And we see differences in the image, which we can call color.

So when you add smoothness and curvature, that's another layer added. I'm being picky here because precision is crucial as we move forward.

It's a slippery slope to say that in the realm of words everything is interpretation, therefore smoothness/curvature is fine, because even though we need words to have this dialogue, we still need to make sure you're looking in direct experience.

Is this all crystal clear or is there still something you want to cover? Feel free to ask :)

[mpaul3]

Yes, in the realm of words everything is a concept, one abstraction, or more, removed from reality.

In terms of the visual, we see an image, we can go that far. And we see differences in the image, which we can call color.

So when you add smoothness and curvature, that's another layer added. I'm being picky here because precision is crucial as we move forward.

It's a slippery slope to say that in the realm of words everything is interpretation, therefore smoothness/curvature is fine, because even though we need words to have this dialogue, we still need to make sure you're looking in direct experience.

Is this all crystal clear or is there still something you want to cover? Feel free to ask :)

I think I get this, Henri. When I hold the apple it is simply = touch/sensation?

[Bluejay]

I think I get this, Henri. When I hold the apple it is simply = touch/sensation?

Yes, exactly. We can explore this more later if needed. I've taken notes so I don't forget.

Here's the next pointer:

Observing Thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict the next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

Do you control where attention goes?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Let me know what you find :)

[mpaul3]

Observing Thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear.

Try your best to completely ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts arise from nowhere and dissolve into nowhere.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, although other thoughts arose about thoughts that had arisen.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No.

Can you predict the next thought?

No.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to only have pleasant thoughts?

No.

Do you control where attention goes?

No. The thought to attend to something arises like any other thought. The attending to something may or may not happen as it is really just more thoughts.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No. Picking and choosing is just more thoughts arising.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No.

It may seem like thoughts are ordered logically, but look carefully. Is there an organized sequence? Or is it just another thought that says 'these thoughts are in sequence' or 'they take content from previous thoughts' or 'one thought follows another thought'?

Thoughts come and go. At times there seems to be a sequence or theme to a flow of thoughts. But that sense of a sequence or theme is just another thought seemingly in relation to other thoughts.

[Bluejay]

Nicely done!

No, although other thoughts arose about thoughts that had arisen.

And did you make these thoughts appear or did they arise out of nowhere like the rest?

Here's the next exploration:

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Enjoy! :)

[mpaul3]

And did you make these thoughts appear or did they arise out of nowhere like the rest?

Just like the rest, arose out of nowhere nothing.

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
- How is the movement controlled?

I really didn't sense any 'control' of the movement, seem to be happening automatically.

- Does a thought control it?

Surprisingly, very few thoughts, and certainly none controlling the flipping.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No controller, just the hand flipping over and over and then stopping.

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There really didn't seem to be any decisions. There were some initial thoughts about doing the exercise, then it happened, and then it was over.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

No choice, I'm right handed, so my right hand automatically went out to do the exercise.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I really can't, it just seemed to happen.

[Bluejay]

I really can't, it just seemed to happen.

How does it feel to see that it just seems to happen?

[mpaul3]

How does it feel to see that it just seems to happen?

It feels peaceful, open, unencumbered.

[Bluejay]

It feels peaceful, open, unencumbered.

Very nice.

Let's explore this one:

Explore ‘Sense of Self'

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this sense of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by feeling it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

Does it refer to anything?

What is found?

[mpaul3]

Hi Henri, so, we're getting to the heart of the matter.

Does the sense of self have a location?

No, the sense of self is unlocalized.

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

No.

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

It seems to be 'embodied' in thoughts.

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Thoughts like "I want this, I don't want that," "This is mine," etc.

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

Other than the sense of 'I' 'me' 'mine' carried by thoughts, the sense of self is a ghost.

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

The sense of self only seems to be made of thought stuff.

Does it refer to anything?

It is utterly self-referential.

What is found?

The sense of self seems to be empty, a ghost made of thoughts, which are also empty.