Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
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https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/viewtopic.php?t=9154
At the beginning I thought that it is me who recognizes the thought, because somehow it is known that there is a thought.A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
No, there is nobody that does the thinking. Thinking just happens. Thoughts just come and go.Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
No, I am not able to influence a thought stream, even if sometimes it appears like that. It is not possible to make a different thought appear.Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
There isn't anything responsible for the thoughts. Thoughts just appear and disappear. It is not possible to change a flow of thoughts.Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Thought appear totally in a random way from nowhere and disappear to nowhere. I was not able to spot the exact location, so there is no location at all.Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.
No, I could not predict the order of appearance.Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
No.Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
No, thought just appear when they want to.Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
This one was interesting to explore. Actually it is possible to stop thinking a thought in the middle if something happens during that thinking, for example a sudden distraction like loud music, someone shouting or so. But all this is not my intention to stop thinking, it just stopped because of distraction. Or maybe it stops because it is just an awareness shift to other things like listening.Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last?
Thoughts are always about something: the past or the future. The past is already gone and the future is still not here so all this thinking is not true at all. That is how I see this.Are thoughts 100% true?
If I don't think about myself, there is no me at all. Everything that is - just pure sensations. So it means that "I" can only be found in the thought. Wow... And thoughts are random and nobody controls them... Another wow...What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
It’s my pleasure talking to you!Thank you for your time and exercises. I really appreciate that!
It is only a thought that there is someone aware of thoughts. But in reality there is no one. Only thought recognition or just an awareness.
When you say “awareness”, how is this experienced in DE? What is awareness? Is it a container for experiences?Or maybe it stops because it is just an awareness shift to other things like listening.
How does that make you feel?If I don't think about myself, there is no me at all. Everything that is - just pure sensations. So it means that "I" can only be found in the thought. Wow... And thoughts are random and nobody controls them... Another wow...
I had to dig it deeper. When I tried to find awareness in DE, there was none. Just thoughts arising, hearing of sounds, seeing. When I wrote "awareness", it was from my past teachings, but now I see that in DE everything just happens and is done by no one. No awareness is needed for that, or there is no awareness. It is not possible to describe it using five senses. I could better call awareness more like “aware-ing” / knowing / being / living.When you say “awareness”, how is this experienced in DE? What is awareness? Is it a container for experiences?
Some kind of lone witness?
Or is witnessing too just happening, done by no one? Is awareness a container in which all arises?
Keep digging.
Does it have any observable characteristics? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Is there awareness (noun/entity) or “aware-ing” / knowing / being – more like a feature of experience?
Could not find any border, just thought arising.Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does awareness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border?
Looking deeper I could see that there is no separation between thought and awareness of that thought, so it is just "aware" thinking. There would be no awareness of the thoughts without the thought. So, "awareness" is just a label for thoughts arising, hearing, seeing, sensing, smelling?Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are the awareness and thought separate, or is there only “aware” thinking? Can there be thoughts without awareness? Can there be awareness without objects (thoughts)? Would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts?
Thank you for that video. It was really helpful.You might this video helpful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=17&t=8s
Just some small shift in seeing everything, but "me" is still here. Digging deeper :).If I don't think about myself, there is no me at all. Everything that is - just pure sensations. So it means that "I" can only be found in the thought. Wow... And thoughts are random and nobody controls them... Another wow...
How does that make you feel?
No worries! We’ll look in all the “hiding places” :)Just some small shift in seeing everything, but "me" is still here. Digging deeper :).
When I look I actually do not find “me”, but my thoughts, emotions and body sensations (tension, pain) indicate that “me” is here. Or maybe once again the thought says so: that these emotions and pain are mine. I feel it especially when somebody says something about my past (for example “you did in not right and because of that this bad thing happened… so you are responsible for this”), or about what should I do. Even my mind can get me crazy when trying to make a decision on something important for “me” and “my family” future. I know that there is no decision maker, there is no witness, everything just happens and decisions are just made somehow, but thoughts arise, intense emotions and body sensations also (heart starts beating quicker, breathing becomes more intense and it seems that I need more air, tension in the chest area). I understand that all this is just “what is” and is not controlled by me, especially when I see that these thoughts, emotions and sensations just arise from nowhere and at any time. Still most of the time I see it like all this happens to me and should be controlled by me.When you say that “"me" is still here” where did you look? Is it because thoughts says so or you actually looked and saw? Where exactly does it “shine” the brightest?
When I try to feel anything and inquire there is a feeling in the chest/heart are. At least there my focus of attention goes.Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it. Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:
Does the sense of self have a location?
No, I could not determine any shape or size.Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
I do not find any communication, just some kind of tension in the chest area rising and fading like waves.Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
No sounds, no images, no taste or smell. But a lot of thoughts and sensations. Thoughts about who I am with all my past (what I did wrong and right), my family - that I have to take care of, my friends, my business, money problems and so on.Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
What is found?
First, let’s make it clear:When I look I actually do not find “me”, but my thoughts, emotions and body sensations (tension, pain) indicate that “me” is here.
Let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the exercises below and report your findings! Remember that we’re looking for some kind of entity, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’. Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’, but remember we are not interested in “seems like” and “feels like” entities, but ones that could be described.Even my mind can get me crazy when trying to make a decision on something important for “me” and “my family” future.
No, there is nothing in raw sensations that suggests „me“ and aliveness is not personal.So let’s leave thoughts aside for a second. Stay with the raw sensations (“tension”, “chest”). Is there anything in these raw sensations that suggests a “me”? There is aliveness there – “heartbeat”, “breathing” (sensations), but is that aliveness personal? Focus on that feeling - am-ness/being, aliveness.
Just being.Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Life is happening as being.Is life happening to a being or as being?
No, it is not an object or subject, nor a human.Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Earlier I have taken it as „me“, but now I see that this is just „aliveness“ and is just happening.Is it what you've taken as "you"?
I did not manage to discover how it is controlled. No control found.1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
How is the movement controlled?
No. A thought is just a thought, and it can’t control anything.Does a thought control it?
NoCan a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
I could not discover any real decision maker or any decision point as sometimes a thought appears and hand turns, but other times the hand just turns without any thought or thought appears after hand turn to just label that movement.How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
No, I was not choosing any qualities, they just appear. I also did not choose any preferences. They just pop up by themselves.In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
No choosing entity and I did not choose the sequence of event. It just happened.In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience an entity doing the ‘choosing’?
No, nothing arose that announced - ‘I am the chooser’. Choice just happened.In step 3 where you made a choice, did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does it look like?
It was not like a ‘biggish’ decision, but just one of recent decisions. I was driving a car and a thought came up to go to the shop and buy a doorway carpet that I forgot to buy some days ago. I had to turn from the way that I was driving to reach that shop so throughs started to appear that said: ‘Is it worth to turn from my way now’, ‘Maybe there will be a traffic’, ‘Maybe next time’, ‘But why not today, I have time’ and so on. At the same time, I was looking around to evaluate the traffic, looking to the clock to see what time it was. Thoughts were just appearing till I reached the point of the road where I had to turn to the shop or just go straight where I was going. And… I just turned and went to the shop. I have no idea why and who made this decision. It just happened spontaneously. I have no idea if the outcome could have been the same or different if any of those conditions were different as I cannot find who and how decided to turn this time. According to thought everything was under its control, but I see that nothing was under anyone’s control.3. Please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently - not something very personal so you are able to share more details about your decision making...
How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
It’s really my pleasure! Thank you for your diligence and perseverance!Thank you for being with me.
How does that make you feel?Earlier I have taken it as „me“, but now I see that this is just „aliveness“ and is just happening.
Yes!! Thought comes with the action announcing how there is an “I” that did it. You’ll find this video interesting:I could not discover any real decision maker or any decision point as sometimes a thought appears and hand turns, but other times the hand just turns without any thought or thought appears after hand turn to just label that movement.
Did the thought make this happen or it happened and thought came along trying to "make sense" of whatever was happening?It was not like a ‘biggish’ decision, but just one of recent decisions. I was driving a car and a thought came up to go to the shop and buy a doorway carpet that I forgot to buy some days ago. I had to turn from the way that I was driving to reach that shop so throughs started to appear that said: ‘Is it worth to turn from my way now’, ‘Maybe there will be a traffic’, ‘Maybe next time’, ‘But why not today, I have time’ and so on. At the same time, I was looking around to evaluate the traffic, looking to the clock to see what time it was. Thoughts were just appearing till I reached the point of the road where I had to turn to the shop or just go straight where I was going. And… I just turned and went to the shop. I have no idea why and who made this decision. It just happened spontaneously. I have no idea if the outcome could have been the same or different if any of those conditions were different as I cannot find who and how decided to turn this time. According to thought everything was under its control, but I see that nothing was under anyone’s control.
The best way to describe it would be – „Less ups and downs, or more calmness “. If everything is just happening so, why worry too much or at all, or why to be too happy or too much excited. I feel like everything is slowing down.How does that make you feel?
Thank you for this video. It was very interesting.Yes!! Thought comes with the action announcing how there is an “I” that did it. You’ll find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3
It just happened and thought came afterwards to “label” or “make sense” of it.Did the thought make this happen or it happened and thought came along trying to "make sense" of whatever was happening?
Yes, that is right.So, there is no “decision” at all, but it’s plain cause and effect playing out and thought announcing and claiming the “decision”, right?
Yes, I see that!Or to word it differently, thoughts self-organise around experience based on previous conditioning (old thought content). Can you see it?
Without thought cause and effect are not possible, because these are thought content and cannot be experienced directly.But!! Do cause and effect exist without thought? How are ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ experienced directly?
It is not possible to directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’, ‘1 min ago’ or even ‘1s ago’. Direct experience is only what is happening now. So, cause and effect cannot take place as they can’t both be now.When could possibly cause and effect take place when there is only NOW/ what is happening? What is time without memory (thought content)? Can you directly experience ‘past’ or ‘future’? Can you directly experience ‘1 min ago’ or ‘1s ago’?
‘Now’ is just ‘what is’ or Reality, or ‘Life’, or ‘Aliveness’. I can give it whatever label, but it does not change the essence. There is no experience of ‘now’ moving along the timeline. The line of time appears only with a thought. I was not able to find time in direct experience. So no ‘past’, no ‘future’, no movement, no start and the end, no sequence in time. It is not so easy to digest, but it is true and it changes everything…But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Good! :)The best way to describe it would be – „Less ups and downs, or more calmness “. If everything is just happening so, why worry too much or at all, or why to be too happy or too much excited. I feel like everything is slowing down.
No, there is not.Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?
That movement is not outside of me nor inside of me, as there is no "inside" and "outside". There is no 'here' or 'there' too.Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”? Is there ‘here’ or ‘there’?
There is no space. There cannot be space because if there is a space there should be something separate in that space. Also space can not be located or found in DE. Everything: space, me, others, trees, birds and so on are the same interdependent movement as a whole that is just happening every moment.Is there space?
No.Is there an owner of being?
No, there are no others and there is no an 'I' in others. Others can only be experienced as the same interdependent movement or 'aliveness' happening as 'others'.Are there others? Is there an “I” in others? How are “others” experienced?
No, there is no 'me', just aliveness happening as me.Is there a “you”?