Uncertain - I'd love to clarify on whats next

[Bananafish]

You are doing a beautiful inquiry, Louise. :). Please enjoy what the process brings about.

Ok, we'll work steadily but not in a hurry. You could slowly review our dialogue
so far and write freely about what comes to your mind. You could also continue
observing the sensations and attention going to lots of places.

Relax and be curious. :)

Let me know in case you need a bit more input or questions, rather than output.

I'll see you tomorrow. Have a wonderful day!

Kento

[SaLou]

I am enjoying :)

I woke up with attention with sensation, not apart. I'm feeling fresh and at the same time nothing changed but more as it is. Seems subtle

There's less seperation, more neutral being, width. Before there was more division, narrowness.

Initially when asked to observe sensations where attention goes naturally I thought sensations and attention were seperated by something or me directing attention on sensation.

Also, attention on thoughts was not "me" and attention on other stuff felt "more me".ppI wasn't seeing how attention fuses w⁵p, resistance arises = suffering so i labelled that as "not me" to get away from it. Sneaky selfing...

Yesterday i re-reflected on your question:

What is the nature, the characteristics of what
you call attention?

- that, struck me. Do "I" have some special way of relating to attention? What is attention anyways? Confusion. At the edge I kept seeing where attention goes, energy/attention flows... then starring at my laundry basket it was less directional (from me to it sticking to or grabbing the color and shape) and more direct seeing - spacious, less narrow, less getting yanked around, again subtle

Further reviewing our discussion: i was starting to notice a kind of "transition". From attention with thought+sensation = emotion towards eyes open seeing of bed. I got curious about why it seemed like a transition. Again, exactly where i had the thought "emotion is not me" - is where selfing was happening. And looking with eyes is "more me" was also selfing

Who? No one is attending to sensations
What? More true is that attention is attending to sensation. I'm not entirely sure..
- how could one inquire here? Or do you suggest something else

I've been mostly sitting quietly with eyes mostly open for this inquiry so i'll continue the day and observe attention and sensation

I'm so grateful for this, thank you Kento
- louise

[Bananafish]

Beautiful observations and insights coming from it. :)

Yes, slowly and gently, but steadily, keep observing in that way.
It seems to me that now you are also able to do inquiry yourself now.

In that case, go for it!

About the attention inquiry, inquire as yo have done so far, by observing attention,
and wait for for clear seeing to come.

And please let me know how it went, and ask questions, so that in the next post
I could offer some inputs based on it.

Hope you have a great day, Louise. :)

Kento

[SaLou]

Hi Kento,
Thank you for the encouragement. It's good to have you as a guide

This process is subtle..

In observing attention with sensations, what comes and goes is awareness. I'm defining awareness as direct experiencing. Eg im biking for some time but at a certain point, I become aware that im biking and aware of sensations. Then there's so much more being-ness of what is seen, heard, felt directly. When attention is fused with thoughts there's loss of awareness with bodily sensations. Another way i'm experiencing what i call awareness is non-identifying with thoughts. When identifying with thoughts is happening, awareness with attention/sensations is not present.
-> Am i on track?

-> I'm noticing a something that has been sticky and im curious what you think and if you have suggestion on further direction: awareness of thoughts arise and the thought is "thoughts aren't me, the real me is bodily sensations".

Yet my direct experience is: there's sight, sound, feeling and i find no real self. And my direct experience of thoughts is that there's no "I" there

The sticky point i can see here is a thought.. so i will inquire more haha, keep observing whats happening here.

Again, that fusing with thought and dissasociating with body is becoming more clear. What discomfort. I'm excited and grateful this mysterious inquiry has led me here

Louise

[Bananafish]

Hi Louise! :)

It's great that you don't lose excitement even if there is discomfort in inquiring.

Yes, inquiry is not always relaxing and comfortable; we might have to confront something
we don't want to feel. But don't worry, going through a path is far easier if you have
a good friend that has gone through the same path. And that's why I'm here as your guide. :)

My little suggestion when observing thoughts is not to observe the content of thoughts,
but rather observe their quality, as they come one by one.

For example, when the thought "I'm tired" arises, see what kind of bodily sensation it brings
with it. Also, it's good to see where thoughts come from and where they go.

Please give this a try, and let me know how you felt. :)

Have a great day, Louise!

Kento

[SaLou]

Goodday Kento,

Please give this a try, and let me know how you felt. :)

Noticing what's going on is happening more often. More moments of experiencing life, looking and feeling sensations. Thoughts are less frequent than say 3 weeks ago. I'm working. Then i'm not working. I'm playing, then i'm eating etc. All weekend was full of visiting with family. I tend to need more time alone. Instead I enjoyed being with everyone while easily and naturally doing a little work and kept inquiring/noticing throughout the days. Less reacting going on, even when a situation arose that has normally had a chain of fused sensations and thoughts

For example, when the thought "I'm tired" arises, see what kind of bodily sensation it brings
with it.

When i read this i notice eyes feel tight and heavy and the thought "I'm tired" appeared. Attention goes back to sensations then another thought etc.

I'm noticing thought appears after sensation. Default thought habit is to confirm what's happening, like thoughts are claiming the experience. But thoughts are information not making anything real. I have seen this clearly before but over the past 4 years, clarity, balance and concentration became lower. Seeing recently is becoming sharper. I notice more auditory or visual mental content as it is. Thoughts are more dull, less vivid and more like a tv screen. Thought arises, stays for some time then disappears.

Without looking, i tend to believe thoughts seems to precede action and claim authority or explain selfing. When i look, this isn't the case. Sometimes thoughts arise in close timing with sensation and further influence sensation or not. A thought can arise and when heard or seen, goes away or not.

I was biking again and a thought arose to lead me to a different direction. The thought passed away and i didn't follow thought. The whole time i noticed no thought about how to bike. Yet a million movements and sensations where happening. Amazingly thought is not required for biking or anything to happen. Im seeing that thoughts are happening and can have value but they aren't real, neat! And at other times visual thought would appear and yet eyes seeing out was still helping to steer the bike, no crash.

Also, it's good to see where thoughts come from and where they go.

i don't know where they come from or where they go, they just do

Good reminder to drop the content and observe the nature of thoughts.. it can be so easy to get sidetracked by some sticky thoughts

[Bananafish]

Great observation as usual, Louise! How does it feel to see that?

Another piece of advice: thoughts, regardless of how many of them arise, are neither
good nor bad. It's thought themselves that has the contents of good and bad, but none of
them are inherently so.

So, please note and again observe when you are trying to judge the result of
inquiry according to the amount of thoughts that appear. This is extremely subtle,
but it's definitely possible to find out what's behind that.

Now, it's your turn, Louise.
Please tell your "sticking point" e.g., something that you have a gut feeling that is
unprocessed.

You're doing very well, Louise. Please keep the good work! :)

Kento

[SaLou]

Kento :)

How does it feel to see that?

Seeing this feels normal, present, content. Also relief.

thoughts, regardless of how many of them arise, are neither good nor bad. It's thought themselves that has the contents of good and bad, but none of
them are inherently so.

Initially i understand this but i'm seeing this more now. The piece that just came to me is this: during this inquiry i would look back at the day and evaluate the overall thought quantity. Then this thought "oh i was lost in thought a lot today, where was I?". I was buying into that last thought as important, needing my attention and didn't see it was also another thought. That was confusing. Conversely i thought "today was good bc thoughts were low". And that thought existing is neither good nor bad

I'm starting to distinguish between thought content and thought nature more. Which thoughts can have correct information or usefullness and which thoughts do not (most of them:). I was identifying thoughts with false or bad/good content to be real. And then i suffered. Big breath... oufff.

And now as i write i see that even seemingly correct thoughts like "cross the road now" so as to not get hit by a car, is not real nor validates a sense of the "I" crossing.

So, please note and again observe when you are trying to judge the result of inquiry according to the amount of thoughts that appear. This is extremely subtle, but it's definitely possible to find out what's behind that.

Ok so i was believing that less thoughts=less suffering. That's incomplete.

Observing thoughts as they are=just seeing/hearing which is neutral happening

Judging the result of inquiry based on quantity of thoughts...
Now that i'm able to see thoughts as they are more often, resistance or attraction and believing is reduced along with suffering. And the liberating part is that i can inquire into the nature of thought regardless of the quantity of thoughts :) thank you

Years ago i experienced several weeks of very very low quanity of mental content. I can see how that made me equate no thoughts = no suffering. And so it is with great gratitute that i say you've help me see beyond this. Im grateful i got a taste of that silence and peace and also see how i clung to it when it left and i seeked it in the wrong places. But now i see that, regardless of quantity of thought or sensation, it is how it is seen that is liberating. Ah the longing to be free of thought and the resisting of it arising were centered on a central "me" progressing or not in awakening. What a trap...

Please tell your "sticking point" e.g., something that you have a gut feeling that is unprocessed.

I've reviewed old sticking points but don't find any sticking now. Just thought, feeling.. The common ones before were "am i there yet? Nope, still lots of thoughts and thoughts are suffering" in regards to awakening. This was the thought I brought forth in my introduction and i'm not noticing any sticking or confusion. If I do, i will enquire. And perhaps i could reach out if you are available?

What a neat process, thank you :)

[Bananafish]

Sure, Louise! :). Let me ask some questions to see where we are at now.

Do you still feel that there is a subject here (somewhere here) looking at the world out there?

Do you still feel that there is something concrete and continuous (born in the past, living presently, and will
continue to the future) that is controlling actions or thoughts?

Please consider these questions and be 100% honest to yourself when answering.

Have a wonderful day!

Kento

[SaLou]

Hello hello Kento,

Do you still feel that there is a subject here (somewhere here) looking at the world out there?

I feel feeling but I don't feel a subject. There isn't someone somewhere in here looking out there. There is seeing

Do you still feel that there is something concrete and continuous (born in the past, living presently, and will
continue to the future) that is controlling actions or thoughts?

I'm not feeling a solid unchangingness that is directing the show. I had been referring to something that seemed to persist and be directing actions and thoughts. That feeling of something was made up of sticky thoughts and i mistook them for a sense of me directing attention

It's hard to explain what it feels like for something that was never there to now be seen as not there.

Evidence, so far, suggest im 100% sure

Wishing you a beautiful day,
Louise

[Bananafish]

Beautiful, Louise. :). Very nicely put!

Would you like to try a set of questions that are asked to everyone to
for our fellow guides to check whether nothing is left uncovered in our dialogue?

Wishing you a great day, too.

Kento

[SaLou]

Sure Kento let's try :)

[Bananafish]

Ok, Louise, here are the questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for?

6) Anything to add?


Enjoy!

Kento

[SaLou]

Hi Kento, here we go :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There seemed to be a form of seperate something of self but upon examination i found beleif in the content of some thoughts. There is no "I" now nor before

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of seperate self... hmm. I'm not sure but i'll try. As i was born I experienced. As I grew up, language, norms, ideas, traditions, environment shaped what sensations and thoughts meant around a central me. There's constant complex overlapping validation of "me" from the surrounding environment. It builds. Thinking "i'm good" or "i'm bad", the content is deemed important, it is beleived and it forms seemingly real self. And other people are in on it too. The words, labels "I" or "mine" reinforce the beleif of a seperate self. It's uncomfortable to live a lie and this discomfort leads to pushing and pulling through life, seeking and hidding..

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I'm finding writing this odd because words don't seem to be coming but also im not so interested in this topic anymore, if that makes sense. I mean I am very grateful. Seeing this just seems very ordinary, subtle.

The main difference is that when I started this inquiry, there was a sense of a mild something lurking at every turn that i was trying to get away from. I don't feel that central focal point anymore where i'm moving awareness on things out there then back to me

Coming to LU I generally experienced sensations as sensations and i thought i was experiencing thoughts as thoughts. But through inquiring into the nature of attention and thoughts, I saw that there were some special thoughts/stories that i was blind to. It was an icky feeling to look. But I continued to look gently and i saw that sticky thoughts were holding up this something... that upon closer examination was believing the thoughts.

A good chunk of "I" dissolved 4 years ago. Seeking diminished and i also dropped some activities that had previously been propped up by the suffering self. Life went on. Over the last few years seeking slowly returned and peaked last month and thats when i heard about LU. Very grateful to have this opportunity

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was a movement really but something that sticks out is when you Kento asked me to observe the nature, the quality of thoughts rather than their content. As I sat there, a familiar thought arose "so many thoughts today means I have not arrived yet, i'm not awakened". Not taking much care for the content, i saw how it arrived, stayed, then left. Oh yes thought, just thought. It occured to me that i'd become so confident or comfortable observing thoughts that i was blind to how i was beleiving this story. It was an invisible release. Beleiving was sticking thoughts to form "me". After that i saw thoughts as thoughts easier. I also got clarity that thoughts are happening but they aren't real. Furthermore, thoughts can be useful but they are not necessary. What a releif

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is a story made up of thoughts and actions. Things are happening. A recent example of decision that took the form of a thought: "i need to decide what i'm doing today. I decide i will do x, y, z" Can thoughts affect actions? They can but they don't control whats happens nor what i do or not. today is just happening somehow

My thumbs are typing on the phone. Thumbs started moving and thought about thumbs and this question arose. Was that a decision? Thinking about it makes it seem like I decided but my thumbs are just feeling.. There's a lot of things happening together for what we call decision to happen. I'm not sure how it all works and that's okay

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention sounds similar to decision.
Intention is thoughts. I've used the word this way: "my intention for the year is zestful ease or light and deep". Its a thought. Does it have an effect on actions? It can. But does thought or intention have some magically power? It's happening but the content isn't real

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will is... hmm i don't know. People talk about free will as the perceived ability to have control over what is happening.
There's the statement: humans have free will or they don't. People talk about having free will like they are an agent in control which can be beleived to be a good thing. Eg. I have free will and i can choose to be kind. I'm getting the sense that free will is a beleif about how the universe works and it reinforces the individuals belief as the actor. It's a validating thought. But again its a thought and does not control the universe

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Wow not much is coming to mind... ok so choice is the selection among perceived seperate things. I could say that "I am choosing between ice cream and something else". Choice is a thought. If ice cream is "choosen" by the time im eating it it would appear like the choice/the thought made that happen. But its just tasting, feeling, smelling, thinking. All that is labelled "choice"

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control can be thought of as having power over something. Saying "you can't do that" may result in some action happening or not but it is a story made up of thoughts about whats happening.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

I don't know what makes things happen or how it all works. I remember being more interested in this but at the moment things happening somehow is good enough

What are you responsible for?

Being responsible for something.. hmm this is pointing to the idea that thoughts and action are towards something. Pulling. Like i could say i am responsible to care for all our relations. Caring for all my relations happens. Thoughts and actions get labelled "responsibility"

6) Anything to add?

:) in awe and wonder of how it all happens, I thank you :)

[Bananafish]

Thanks Louise. :) No more questions at the moment from me!

Let's see if my fellow guides have anything they would like to ask ...

Hope you have a wonderful day. :)