HI Rali,
Yes we are still doing this. The questions this time felt like they needed a bit more attention to do justice to and I wasn't able to get around to it in the last few days :)
You say there are sensations. Are those sensations somehow linked to the thinking or are they simply appearing together with thinking?
These sensations don't have any inherent linkage to the thoughts other than co-dependent arising. They come into my experience when I look for that "me".
There is aliveness, there are sensations (“heart beating”, “breathing”) but what in these sensation suggests “thinker” or a “me”?
When I observe these physical sensations, nothing about them suggests a me, they are just existing of their own accord.
However when I look for "me", then certain thoughts and sensations come up in response, and those get associated.
Also when you say silence is this the lack of an answer or the fact that there is nothing separate from thought doing the thinking?
It is a lack of an answer - when I continue to recursively look for "me" or the "observer" of everything that comes up, I find nothing coming up in my AE/DE in response.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No, I cannot ensure that only pleasants thought arise. Nor can I guarantee that I will be free from painful thoughts at any moment.
Can you choose to have only happy thoughts all the time? If it happens that sometimes you have happy thoughts and sometimes you have sad thoughts doesn’t this suggest that they just happen on their own?
True, there are moments that "should" be happy where there is sadness and moments that "should" be sad where there is happiness. It does suggest that I am not in total control of my thoughts. And there is another thought that arises - the thought that I can partially direct my thoughts.
Look at the clouds in the sky. Are they moving according to anyone's direction? How is the movement of thoughts different from the movement of clouds?
In the past there have been experiences where - for example - while trying to work on a project I have noticed the mind is a bit busy and chaotic so I have made the decision to sit and meditate and then I have been able to keep the mind focused on the project better. This, to me, feels distinctly different from the idea that the thoughts are like clouds completely out of my control because there was some direction that I was able to provide to the clouds.
While I have evidence of thoughts not totally being in my control, there is still the thought that they can at least be partially guided in some direction by actions.
Why did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know?
I do not know why I chose the number that I did. It simply arose. I cannot say why that specific number arose, but is there not still some agency there? Ultimately it was a number that came up, and not a color or a smell or an object. Which number specifically wasn't consciously directed by me, but the fact that only a number should come up seems intentional or 'controlled' on my part.
Maybe repeat the questions with your favourite team vs eating chocolate. Why did you choose to think of the team? Did it come out of the blue or you planned to think of your team? Did you plan about this yesterday and you named the time and place when it will happen?
Yes, in my example I gave the idea of a sports team and that choice was quite random (perhaps influenced by the fact that I was reading a blog article about a sports team before writing that post). I had not planned it explicitly.
Also, it seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
Yes, even the thought/belief that I have some control or that I am directing the thoughts is in itself another thought.
How did you bring awareness to thoughts?
Hmmm.. "bringing awareness" to a thought simply just felt like that thought coming into my AE/DE more prominently. If I had lost track of the exercise then there was a process of
"oh I have lost track" -> "I should bring my attention back to the exercise" -> (the exercise of observation and related thoughts are back at the forefront of my experience).
Can there be thoughts without awareness?
No.. if I am not aware of a thought and it never enters my AE/DE then it is like it never existed.
Can there be awareness without thoughts (object of awareness)?
This is something that I experience at times during meditation when there is simply awareness and the flow of thoughts has reduced - there are moments where there is awareness and no prominent object. I might be missing something there but to me it is as if there is awareness without thought (briefly).
Or perhaps what I am experiencing in that moment is a thought about awareness.
Are they separate entities? Is awareness like a container for thoughts, are there solid thoughts floating around? Can awareness see, speak, hear…? Are you awareness?
Conceptually they are separate to me in that awareness is like the space in which the thoughts arise, or the thing that directs itself towards different things and results in different thoughts arising. But I understand this may just be a learning or abstraction.
Practically I cannot see any evidence of that space of 'awareness' in my AE/DE, anything that comes up as a response to looking for awareness is just a thought that is itself in that space of awareness.
Because I cannot find awareness anywhere in my direct experience, it does not have any ability to see, speak, hear, etc. I don't think "I" am awareness because if the idea of "I" can be contained in my awareness as a thought or a sensation, then awareness must be "larger" than I, or encompassing it.
Focus on focusing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
The attention moves by itself. When trying to keep the attention on the breath, different thoughts become the center of attention on their own.
When you ask "is this something you can control", my answer would be no in response to the random thoughts arising as I try to focus on the breath. But when I realize I am distracted and I bring the breath back into focus, is that not an intentional or controlled act? Even in that situation actually it unfolds as if the breath was sort of brought back into focus on its own and any sensations related to the negativity of having realized I am distracted arise on their own, there is just a thought present that "I" have done this.
What moves attention? Can anything be found that moves attention, or does attention/focus move on its own?
Is thought in control of attention?
Attention moves on its own, I cannot find anything in my direct experience that is moving the attention. Only a remnant thought that "I" have moved it after the task is done, and perhaps some physical sensations connected to that thought - situationally positive or negative.
Since this thought comes after the attention actually moves, it leads me to believe that thought is not controlling the attention, rather that thought is justifying the movement that attention did on its own.
Are there two things – focus and objects of focus (experiencing) or one indivisible knowing_seeing_tasting_hearing_sensing_smelling_thinking (THIS)?
There is only the experience (knowing_seeing_tasting_hearing_sensing_smelling_thinking). Any thought/idea of the self or a physical response to looking for the self also falls within THIS. If I look for someone doing the focusing then that thought or response becomes the THIS experience, and if I look for what is focusing on that, then that also becomes the THIS experience.
Yes this video was helpful in understanding the idea of being stuck on finding a 'pilot for the ship' so to speak, and that the seeker and knowledge are just appearances or constructs.
We are talking on a fundamental level. But also how many times your thought even when not checked with DE have been wrong? Back to the inquiry…Think of it in terms of the “apple” exercise. Your thought says that there is an object called “apple” with certain characteristics. Your DE says a different story – there is only seeing, tasting… labelled “apple”.
So which one is correct?
Thoughts are wrong all the time even from the relative level without looking through AE/DE. When observed empirically, the apple only exists to me as the elements of DE - seeing, tasting, labelling/thought etc. But these happen fast enough and quickly enough together that they are not picked apart or constructed if the effort is not applied, and the illusion of the 'apple' as a separate entity continues.
Does the label "I" contain an actual I...does it contain an actual person?
No there is no actual tangible separate person in that label, it is a combination of thoughts and sensations in DE that are being bundled as I.
Does the label "I" itself, suggest in any way that it is an I? Does the label "I" know anything about an I?
Unsure what these questions mean, the label "I" is just an idea or a thought. How can a thought suggest anything or know anything about something else?
What does the label "I" point to? In other words, what does the word/label "I" actually refer to?
All the thoughts, sensations, etc. that arise in DE arise and are experienced by some"thing". If this something is looked for then more thoughts and sensations are found in DE. There is a thought that "there is something experiencing all of this".
The word "I" refers to the space or vessel experiencing all the elements of THIS, though I cannot find evidence of it directly in my DE. For example, if "I" prick my finger then the sensation of pain is arising in my DE, but not in yours. So there is some sense of me having "my" own unique DE and you having yours. "My" "THIS" is being labelled as "I".