Looking for a guide who works with the Fetter Model

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

sorry for the dely in replying - we are traveling these days

Thank you for your reflections.

I don't think there is full clarity or confidence at this point, but certainly there seems to be an interesting movement. Luchana I appreciate you for walking with me, and want to keep going, hoping/aiming for unshakable clarity in the matter. It's still not there, but who knows, maybe it will be soon,

Clarity comes with looking. When you look directly there is an experiential recognition, which is far more different than intellectualising.

So look the questions bellow and reply from experience

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

Can a thought experienced another thought?


Do not rush in replying, look for a whole day, many, many moments during the day.


Sending love,
Luchana

[Elad]

What can a thought do?

Can a thought think?

Can a thought experienced another thought?

Thoughts cannot think or do or experience. Thoughts are imagination. Imagination of talking, imagination of images or other sensations. Just like a movie cannot do or think or experience, thoughts cannot do or think or experience. Just like a movie can be a documentary about things that happened or a fantasy movie, so also thoughts can be about things that are in the world, or not. Thoughts can represent something that can be found (cat) or something that cannot be found (unicorn) or another thought or complex of thoughts (mathematics for example). In any case, thoughts cannot do or think or experience.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

sorry for the delay in reply.

Thoughts cannot think or do or experience. Thoughts are imagination. Imagination of talking, imagination of images or other sensations. Just like a movie cannot do or think or experience, thoughts cannot do or think or experience. Just like a movie can be a documentary about things that happened or a fantasy movie, so also thoughts can be about things that are in the world, or not. Thoughts can represent something that can be found (cat) or something that cannot be found (unicorn) or another thought or complex of thoughts (mathematics for example). In any case, thoughts cannot do or think or experience.

You did a good looking.

So the question is
How something which can't do or experience create something else? Is possible for a thought to create something?
A separate entity, me, self?


And here is an exercise to take a closer look at thoughts especially at thoughts about me.

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Sending love,
Luchana

[Elad]

So the question is
How something which can't do or experience create something else? Is possible for a thought to create something?
A separate entity, me, self?

Let me know how you go and what you notice.

Dear Luchana, thank you and I respect you take the time you need.

Thoughts cannot create anything by themselves and they cannot create a separate entity, me, self.

Re exercise, did it two times. First time 16 self-thoughts, 11 not-self thoughts. Second time 26 self-thoughts, 11 not-self thoughts.

Right away when I read your exercise I practiced informally, and noticing and acknowledging in this way how the majority of thoughts are about self, created a sense of opening and relief, a sense of disidentifying from self-thoughts and being more at easy and content.

During the two 5 minute exercise rounds most self-thoughts were just a seeing and feeling of the body together with identification as me, or thoughts about what I would tell you I saw in the exercise. Not self thoughts were mostly either analysis of what is going on without self-thought, or spontaneous associations without self-thoughts (for example hearing sound of bird and then seeing image of bird). Thoughts that do not have self-identification and focus often have an ease in them, they feel light and spontaneous just like sensations. Both self-thoughts and not-self thoughts come and dissappear instantly without control.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,
you did a good observation.

Let's look closely the seemingly 11 not-self thoughts. It seems that those are not about me, but actually :

"for example hearing sound of bird and then seeing image of bird"

To whom sound arising? To whom image appearing?
In actuality there is a sound happening and that's all.
But when there is a a self-centered idea of someone It feels like:

I, me is hearing the sound of bird and the image appears to me.
Can you see the subtlety here?

Upon closer investigation what are seeming other thoughts are also related to the self, to me just in a hidden way.
You can give some more example of "other" thoughts or if you like make this examination now...


And what if actually ALL thoughts are about me.

How does this feel?

Strange, normal, both, neither?

Sending love,
Luchana

ps.And just a reminder that there is a meeting today, starting 5 pm UK time.

[Elad]

Upon closer investigation what are seeming other thoughts are also related to the self, to me just in a hidden way.
You can give some more example of "other" thoughts or if you like make this examination now...


And what if actually ALL thoughts are about me.

How does this feel?

Strange, normal, both, neither?

I am looking if all thoughts are about me. I did another 5 min exercise, this time 20/2 (20 clearly self-related thoughts, 2 seemed not to be). Some thoughts are explicitly about me. Many thoughts are not explicitly about me, but upon testing, there is sense that there is a subtle me-thought together with them (an image - and subtly "my experience", a philosophical idea - and subtly "my effort to understand"). I will look more if all thoughts contain a subtle me reference. At the same time, there is the sense that upon closer inspection all these thoghts and the self reference is happening by itself. In direct looking no me is seen.

What if all thoughts are abbout me? This now looks very likely. There is mainly an experience of openness in looking at it. Because life in looking is open and spontaneous and fresh. The me-thoughts happen. And they are thoughts, not more or less.

There is a sense of relief in the idea all thoughts are me associated thoughts, in the sense that it normalizes something I have been partly aware of for a long time.

It is meaningful to give caring attention to "my" body, "my" feelings, "my" thoughts, "my" needs. In direct experience there is no separate self that has this body, feelings, memories, etc. They/it just are/is. Good psychotherapy can still makes sense, the only difference with seeing no-self, is that it is not believed that that there is an ultimately separate self doing any of it.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

so lovely to meet you last night :-)

I am looking if all thoughts are about me. I did another 5 min exercise, this time 20/2 (20 clearly self-related thoughts, 2 seemed not to be). Some thoughts are explicitly about me. Many thoughts are not explicitly about me, but upon testing, there is sense that there is a subtle me-thought together with them (an image - and subtly "my experience", a philosophical idea - and subtly "my effort to understand"). I will look more if all thoughts contain a subtle me reference. At the same time, there is the sense that upon closer inspection all these thoghts and the self reference is happening by itself. In direct looking no me is seen.

Right. Upon closer investigation the seemingly other thoughts are also about the self and they all are happening by itself.
Nice :-)

In direct looking no me is seen.

What "no me" points to in that sentence?
What is the direct experience of "no me"?
Was there a me and than a no me?

There is a sense of relief in the idea all thoughts are me associated thoughts, in the sense that it normalizes something I have been partly aware of for a long time.

Is this an idea, or it is directly experienced?
An idea comes as what?

It is meaningful to give caring attention to "my" body, "my" feelings, "my" thoughts, "my" needs. In direct experience there is no separate self that has this body, feelings, memories, etc

What is the direct experience of a body?

What the word body points to at direct experience?

Sending love,
luchana

[Elad]

No-me in direct experience is this: that direct experience always only contains sense impressions and thoughts. None of that is a seperate self/I, none of it in direct experience is controlled by a seperate I. And it has always been so.

What can make it seem otherwise, is that some ideas, including that of the seperate self, are normally strongly believed to be true. This belief is no more than a belief.

A belief can seem more rational (there is intelligent life on other planets) or less rational (Santa Claus exist). Often we don't ultimately know if a belief is true or not, we can only have a more or less evidence based hypothesis and openness to change it if new evidence comes.

The body in direct experience is sense experience without bounderies. The experience of clear bounderies in the body is based on thoughts.

My challenge now is this: the earth doesn't seem round in direct experience, it takes thinking to get to that there is an earth that revolves around the sun. Also while I have never seen an alien, I do not assume they don't exist (as opposed to Santa Claus and Batman). Even if I look 100.000 times and don't see aliens, it doesn't mean I conclude they for sure dont exist.

Direct experience in the here and now doesn't logically necessarily tell ultimate truth.So even if it is clear that it has always been the case and will be the case that there is no seperate controlling self in direct non-conceptual experience, how do we know this is the ultimate truth?

[Elad]

And thank you! Warmly, Elad

[Elad]

Did one more 5 min self/no self: 23 self thoughts, 0 no-self thoughts .

Did one 5 min same principle just with thoughts that are chosen/in control versus thoughts that are not chosen and not control: 0 chosen/in control, 43 not chosen/not in control.

These experiment results and experiences support the experiential feeling and the hypothesis that that a seperate self in control is an illusion and that the investments in the self-illusion is central to suffering.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

My challenge now is this: the earth doesn't seem round in direct experience, it takes thinking to get to that there is an earth that revolves around the sun. Also while I have never seen an alien, I do not assume they don't exist (as opposed to Santa Claus and Batman). Even if I look 100.000 times and don't see aliens, it doesn't mean I conclude they for sure dont exist.

All right...
Can you notice that the statement above is content of thoughts? Thoughts about thoughts about other thoughts?
We are looking to see what here can be directly experienced with 5 senses. We are not interested in content of thought.
So tell me:

IS there a REAL Santa?
Is there a REAL Batman?
Out of a thought about them?

Self, Santa, Batman,
How are they experienced right here right now?
As an image, a sound, a sensation?
OR as an imagination?

Sending love,
Luchana

[Elad]

The self is an imagination. This has always been the case. In direct experience no self can be found.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

The self is an imagination. This has always been the case. In direct experience no self can be found.

All right,

Can you say something more about that?
Was there a moment when it was clearly seen without doubt that there is no inherent separate self choosing, deciding and navigating life?
How that moment/shift itself felt?
Was is energetically?

Also take a look at these questions and reply from experience:

What makes things happen?

How does it work?

What are you responsible for?



Sending love,
Luchana

[Elad]

"Can you say something more about that?"

In direct experience no one is in control, no one is needed to be in control. Naturally there is alertness and wisdom, actions happen spontaneously. The identifications with thoughts as me "the inner voice, me" happens as a process of identifying with and believing the thoughts to be me. The moment the identification with thoughts as me is not there, it is experienced that things unfold by themselves, and make sense by themselves in a way that is more vivid and whole and inherently satisfying than could be experienced when there is identification as me with thoughts and trying to understand with thoughts.

"Was there a moment when it was clearly seen without doubt that there is no inherent separate self choosing, deciding and navigating life?"

I think there have been several moments of clear seeing in the past and now in the last days including today. But the mind introduces doubt and re-identification. This evening, now it is seen that the sense of an I in control comes from believing thoughts to be reality itself. It is like a self-perpetuating and self-validating story telling process. This evening there are moments of clearly experiencing that actions flow freely, and that the identification with inner voice/thoughts as me is a habit that dulls reality.

And yet.... Even as I write now it feels as if there is identification with the "inner voice" - i.e. thoughts - as me, when I write. In this moment it feels as if the inner voice is me. It feels as if I am choosing to write you now and what to write. Looks like there is more looking to do...

"How that moment/shift itself felt?"

The experience in the moments of seeing is clarity and peace and relief. Also it feels very natural.

"Was is energetically?"

The energetic oneness of the whole is felt, it is vivid, it is easeful.

"What makes things happen?"

I don't know, they just do. Direct reality comes without a story, without explanation. In presence it is seen.

"How does it work?"

Again, I don't know. And at the same time there is a natural wisdom and intimacy.

"What are you responsible for?"

In real presence everything takes care of itself and there is no I. However: I seem to only glimpse this for short periods or even moments sometime, more looking is needed...

How is some belief in self maintained here now? How is belief in inner voice and body as me happening here now? Let me look....

Yeah when I become still it is seen that the thinking/inner voice is not who I am. Yet the moment I start writing about it, there is again some doubts.

Looking forward to see what your inputs will be after you read this.

Warmly,
Elad

[Elad]

Ps. We could also say there is responsibility for everything. Not in the sense that there is a seperate d self choosing or acting, there is not. But rather in the sense that everything is naturally imbued with care and respect, as part of the whole.

This is felt and in looking for a seperate self none is found. The sense of identification as me with thinking/inner voice could probably easily return and doubt could easily return.

There is not 100% trust. So I guess just more looking: no one controls and plans and chooses any of this, is it true?

It is what feels most true and most in allignment with direct observation in the question. And yet the mind still doubts.

I guess also, having a mind that is very trained philosophically, psychologically and scientifically is both an advantage and a challenge. Advantage since it can support observation and clear thinking. Disadvantage the mind can bring many examples that just because something feels and seems very true it doesn't mean it is, which fuels the experience that:

In the end I don't know anything, I'm not sure of anything. Except that this experience right now is. What it is, how it is, I can only say what seems right and feels right and what seems to be supported by direct experience, but it doesn't mean it is scientifically and logically true in the end.