The spectator self, at the very least :)

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Thanks a lot!

Once again, sorry for delay here. Was in Amsterdam and juggling a lot of stuff. As you say, life happens...

So are there two sensations (!! without thought) – “fingers” and “cold can”? Where is the border that separates the one from the other?

There is 1 sensation - No border!

How are “brain” and “temples” experienced in DE?

They are not. It's only the label that causes them to be subject to a sensation of their own (but not a DE)!

Do sensations have a location or the location is their label?

In essence, there are just sensations emerging, then fading in awareness. Location is part of the labelling.

where are fingers?

Everywhere or nowhere, depending on whether they either pop up in 'awareness', or one focuses on them.

What are “fingers” with eyes closed and open?

Sensation with eyes closed. That which is seen with eyes open (Colour and Shape) + Sensation.

Now why is here only one sensation but two in the first exercise?

1 sensation for both. Not because Cold is distinct from 'touch-feel' that they make up 2 separate sensations.

What is a “mind”? How is “mind” experienced in DE?

Not to be experienced. Nothing. A figment of our imagination :)


Great stuff. Thanks a lot, Rali!!

All my love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Location is part of the labelling.

Very good!

In essence, there are just sensations emerging, then fading in awareness.

Everywhere or nowhere, depending on whether they either pop up in 'awareness', or one focuses on them.

Is “awareness” a container for sensations (colours, thoughts, sounds, etc)? Are there “solid” sensations floating around, “emerging and fading”? Is the knowing/being aware of sensations separate from the sensations? Is there a visible border? Where does “awareness” stop and the sensations start? Is there an entity called “awareness”? What does it look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Are there sensations without awareness? Can there be awareness without objects (sensations, sounds, etc)? Would awareness of the sensations exist without the sensations? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from teachings! What is there when you look for awareness?

There is aware/knowing aspect of the sensation. There is a noticing/noting/knowing/being aware of that sensation, which hopefully you can see. But are the senses and the knowing of them separate or it’s all one inseparable knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS)?

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being (verb)?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is there an owner of being?

Please watch this video, it might bring a bit more clarity on what I'm pointing to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_4YKU

What is a “mind”? How is “mind” experienced in DE?

Not to be experienced. Nothing. A figment of our imagination :)

Yes, there is no "mind" in DE! Actually, "mind" is a label pointing to thoughts/mental images/stories/thinking, so "mind" is experienced as thinking.
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Solid rhythm :).

Thanks a lot!

Is “awareness” a container for sensations (colours, thoughts, sounds, etc)? Are there “solid” sensations floating around, “emerging and fading”? Is the knowing/being aware of sensations separate from the sensations? Is there a visible border? Where does “awareness” stop and the sensations start? Is there an entity called “awareness”? What does it look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Are there sensations without awareness? Can there be awareness without objects (sensations, sounds, etc)? Would awareness of the sensations exist without the sensations?

I was going to tackle this one by one, but I looked and it's simple. There are only sensations. Or awareness is limited to sensations, not outside of it, not a container, it is 'it' or 'them', nothing more, nothing less. So, there are nothing but physical sensations. So, I guess, only physical pain is to be feared for the truly free. Although - and sorry for going off topic here - I cannot imagine strong emotional pain (especially the one you don't want to think about, something to do with daughter-love) to be domesticated by having integrated it's 'un-realness as DE'.

What is there when you look for awareness?

Nothing.

But are the senses and the knowing of them separate or it’s all one inseparable knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS)?

All one inseparable knowing.

Can you tell if there is a being or just being (verb)?

Just being. You cannot have awareness being limited to sensations, and having a being at the same time. I feel it strongly, in this moment...

Is life happening to a being or as being?

Life is happening as being. Clearly it takes time to de-condition the mind and decommission its theatre, so it will continue to feel like it is 'as a being' for some time and to some extent, but the reality of it is 'the happening as witnessed by the senses in sensations without thoughts' is all there is'

Is there an owner of being?

No owner, no manager. Not even a spectator as all there is are sensations. Naked, ephemeral sensations.

Getting close. Very close.

Will watch the video later (so my responses are not polluted by it).

Thanks a lot!

Enjoy the WE,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Solid rhythm :).

Getting close. Very close.

I can feel a shift is starting :)

So, there are nothing but physical sensations. So, I guess, only physical pain is to be feared for the truly free. Although - and sorry for going off topic here - I cannot imagine strong emotional pain (especially the one you don't want to think about, something to do with daughter-love) to be domesticated by having integrated it's 'un-realness as DE'.

Well, “physical” is another label coming from the belief that the “body” is physical/material. We already saw that “body” is just a label for sensations and colours/seeing. “Pain” is a label for “unpleasant”/ “dangerous” sensations. But does the actual raw sensation know anything about “unpleasantness” or “danger”? Next time you experience pain, sit with it and explore the raw sensations (provided that it’s not life threatening of course ;)). There are people that actually experience pleasure from “painful” sensations. When it comes to emotional pain, it is actually experienced as a “physical” pain – there are still sensations related to the “body”. The similarity, when looked (DE), is that there is only raw sensation there. The only difference is the conditioned thought content that appears with it – be it primal (survival) or more complex version (emotional conditioning). Also, “physical pains” serve a purpose - there seems to be thoughts that are useful in helping to negotiate the illusion of ‘a person in the world’ (the survival/the continuation of life), so in the world of cause and effect they warn for consequences. These thoughts in and of themselves are not a problem, however, when you don’t notice the difference between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to actually be, that is when thoughts become tricky. Basically all thoughts are empty – they try to explain the inexplainable. Labels point to experience but they are not the experience. The word “experience” is a label too :).
Thoughts self-organise around the experience (conditioning) – sometimes reflecting reality and sometime not, but at the end of the day they are still not 100% true. And here is where the problem with “suffering”/emotional pain lies - when thought content is taken to be truth. More specifically the existence of “I”. Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick. Whatever happens feels okay. Even being miserable.
Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening—with or without the word “I.” The self is not needed for frustration to arise, nor for happy, joyful feelings. It all flows freely, as a response to a situation.

Life is happening as being. Clearly it takes time to de-condition the mind and decommission its theatre, so it will continue to feel like it is 'as a being' for some time and to some extent, but the reality of it is 'the happening as witnessed by the senses in sensations without thoughts' is all there is'

When the core belief has been busted, a lot of other beliefs will still be hanging around. What you want to do at this point is LOOK and LOOK again. Keep your eyes open, let the beliefs come to the surface. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it’s gentle, but there is no finish line, only falling deeper and deeper into peace. Looking is the tool that has to be used over and over again. “Crossing the gate” is only the beginning of a long integration and re-evaluation. All this old conditioning has to be seen for what it is. The best part is that the cleaning happens on its own – it takes care of itself ;)

Let’s examine thoughts more closely…

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Great stuff, thanks!

I went question by question and you may find it lacking in coherence, as first I seem to get 'it' or 'there', to then be thrown off balance a bit with the final 2 questions. Wanted to leave it exactly as I worked through it. Thank you so much!!

But does the actual raw sensation know anything about “unpleasantness” or “danger”?

Definitely not. Yet, that clearly doesn't mean I feel I could now experience 'painful sensations' and experience them as I would the sun and breeze on my skin...

when you don’t notice the difference between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to actually be, that is when thoughts become tricky. Basically all thoughts are empty – they try to explain the inexplainable. Labels point to experience but they are not the experience. The word “experience” is a label too :).
Thoughts self-organise around the experience (conditioning) – sometimes reflecting reality and sometime not, but at the end of the day they are still not 100% true. And here is where the problem with “suffering”/emotional pain lies - when thought content is taken to be truth. More specifically the existence of “I”. Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick. Whatever happens feels okay. Even being miserable.
Life is happening. Looking is happening. Getting lost in the story is happening—with or without the word “I.” The self is not needed for frustration to arise, nor for happy, joyful feelings. It all flows freely, as a response to a situation.

Great one; That's it. Everything is happening, happening, happening, flowing, jumping around, transforming, whatever'ing; nothing to do with me; what me? No me, since all there is is happening; nothing to do with me; what me? No me, as everything that emanates from me is again just 'happening perceived by senses'; outside of me, or all there is of me.

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

No, it simply 'pops'

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No, just thinking, no thinker.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No and no; not even in the slightest. It just happens.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

Definitely not. No free will there.

Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

Out of absolutely nowhere; and in totally random fashion.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No; not even if I try thinking about a very specific subject that generally generates a very structured response.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No and No!

Are thoughts 100% true?

Tricky...
Thinking is a label, as all I feel are some sensations around my head.

Thoughts... hmmm
True as in 'real'?
They are not 100% real as they cannot be experienced directly (as such). Yet, they are (to some degree) real/ true, for they appear then disappear (in consciousness) as well as consisting of content and being specific - thinking is happening; thinking is real -; and they often produce an effect that can be experienced directly and is 'real'.

True as the label 'true'?
The content of thoughts is all but true (as in 'giving a true representation of its subject-matter'), but that's irrelevant here I guess.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

My thoughts (unfortunately) as stuck in my head which is the experience; not the content, but the sensation related to falling from thought into thought (which can be experienced directly in a myriad of different forms depending on both content and 'set and setting', but somehow the 'label' associated with incessant thinking is a rather 'negative' one; and it seems that before one pops out of it, some of that 'negative sensation' has left a mark; or is that the implicit judging that comes right after falling out of it. The opposite side of the 'mediation' coin or post-exercise or open green spaces coin, where one feels that the 'positive' that has coursed through us lingers and persists somewhat.)

In the absence of thought: Blissful non-thought: Nothing = (freedom, peace and joy)

Makes sense?

Difficult nut to crack, those last 2 questions. Struggling a bit.

Thanks!

Enjoy the WE.

All my love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

Are thoughts 100% true?

Tricky...
Thinking is a label, as all I feel are some sensations around my head.

Thoughts... hmmm
True as in 'real'?
They are not 100% real as they cannot be experienced directly (as such). Yet, they are (to some degree) real/ true, for they appear then disappear (in consciousness) as well as consisting of content and being specific - thinking is happening; thinking is real -; and they often produce an effect that can be experienced directly and is 'real'.

True as the label 'true'?
The content of thoughts is all but true (as in 'giving a true representation of its subject-matter'), but that's irrelevant here I guess.

I meant the content of thoughts. Thoughts as thinking is very much real stuff. But what they are about is another story, as we’ve seen already with the “apple” exercise.

My thoughts (unfortunately) as stuck in my head which is the experience; not the content, but the sensation related to falling from thought into thought (which can be experienced directly in a myriad of different forms depending on both content and 'set and setting', but somehow the 'label' associated with incessant thinking is a rather 'negative' one; and it seems that before one pops out of it, some of that 'negative sensation' has left a mark; or is that the implicit judging that comes right after falling out of it. The opposite side of the 'mediation' coin or post-exercise or open green spaces coin, where one feels that the 'positive' that has coursed through us lingers and persists somewhat.)

First of all, are they really “your” thoughts? What exactly makes them yours? You said that you cannot control them. Are you the one that experiences them? What is your “head” in DE? Are thoughts located in the “head”? What links the sensation "head" with thinking? What does that link looks like in DE? What is made of?
Second, again, are there “negative” sensations without thought content, or “positive”? Raw sensations are just that – plain sensing. Everything else ABOUT them is thought content.
Also, thinking is only thinking, there is nothing positive or negative about it. It is automatic and self-organised. Thought content – the content of stories – is where all should’s and should-not’s live. But why should you believe what thoughts say when you already acknowledged that their content is not truth? That is why we look at DE, where we see what is actually happening.

Let’s explore this a bit more… Noticing of the senses happens and noticing of thought content happens. But is there anything that gets stuck in thinking, believing them? Are you doing the noticing?
What is it that is currently identified with thoughts, suffers from their presence?
What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them with meditation?
What do thoughts happen to?
Is there someone outside of thoughts and sensations, being identified with them? Are you the experiencer?
Where is the mysterious, unknown, outside entity? In order to ignore thoughts, there has to be someone outside of thoughts, who has volition and the ability to ignore them.
Yes, there is peace underneath all thoughts, but do you expect that somehow thinking will stop?
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Caught in a bit of a work-storm, but trying to answer asap. Need to do this properly and don't want to rush it.

Flying to the US tomorrow, so will have ample time on the plane.

If I can find the time, I'll still try to do it this afternoon.

So sorry for the delay here!!

Thanks

Love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David
Thanks for letting me know! Looking forward to your answers!
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Thanks a lot!

Wrote it in the airport and the plane yesterday, but couldn't send before now. Sorry! Feels like I'm getting very close though :)

Here we go:

First of all, are they really “your” thoughts? What exactly makes them yours? You said that you cannot control them. Are you the one that experiences them? What is your “head” in DE? Are thoughts located in the “head”? What links the sensation "head" with thinking? What does that link looks like in DE? What is made of?

Not mine. Not originated or controlled by me. Experienceable only directly via the associated sensation. Outside of emotion this is a rather weak and quickly dissolving field of energy. Emotion, triggered by thought, can result in more intense sensation. Intense, but only through labelling either negative or positive.

The issue, as regards the experiencing, is that this 'content-engagement', despite the fabricated nature of this content, is automatic. And if (and to the extent) not 'debunked' by conscious awareness, it affects us, right?

My head in DE is a patchwork of transitory sensations, much like any other body part. Bit busier than the others I (actually) feel, as thoughts seem to reside in the head only, although not in one specific area.

The link of head to thinking is that thinking produces sensation somewhere within the head. But, once again, clearly not linked to one place, a 'centre', but rather 'could be anywhere', yet always in the head (as far as the 'naked thought' is concerned - emotion plays out over the entire body).

That link is that (often rather subdued) explosion of energy taking place somewhere within (and on the outskirts) of the 'head'.

Second, again, are there “negative” sensations without thought content, or “positive”?

No. And since the content is 'fabricated', there is no real negative or positive. Again, the only rub I find, is that when not paying attention we are subject to the content... or the tiring nature of the process itself (often I find myself in a whirlwind of exciting thoughts (planning, plotting, scheming), which - upon 'awaking' - is 'draining'. Then again, I realise, 'draining' or 'feeling drained' is just another sensation that is not 'negative' as such.

But why should you believe what thoughts say when you already acknowledged that their content is not truth?

One shouldn't.

But is there anything that gets stuck in thinking, believing them? Are you doing the noticing?

No. I'm not actually. The noticing is just happening. Which may cause an emotion, which is in turn but a fleeting and non-defined sensation. Free again :)

What is it that is currently identified with thoughts, suffers from their presence?

The imagined self. The fact that I take the emotions related to the content of the thoughts (or the fact of overthinking) to be associated to a sort of self, and to have (good or bad type) significance; both of which are not true.

What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them with meditation?

Nothing. Again just a sensation bouncing around in, being the transitory nature of consciousness.

What do thoughts happen to?

To sensations, which may be very muted or stronger depending on the emotion associated with the thought.

Is there someone outside of thoughts and sensations, being identified with them? Are you the experiencer?

No. I'm not as it stops with sensation. Sensation without identity. If there were more than sensation, one would have to be able to somehow see it, seize it, which is not the case.

Where is the mysterious, unknown, outside entity?

Imagined only. And even poorly defined in imagination. Non-existent.

but do you expect that somehow thinking will stop?

.

No. It's not the point. The point is for the resistance to it to stop. Thought-content irrelevant. Sensation neutral. Freedom.

Hahahahaha, I have it there. Now I need to try not to hold on to it I guess :)

Thanks a lot!!

All my love,
David

[poppyseed]

Hi David

There is A LOT of story in your answers. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, without forcing it, take a look with your own two eyes and locate them. That’s how to look for entities - be it "awareness", "me", "others", "Santa", "center", “head”, etc!

Outside of emotion this is a rather weak and quickly dissolving field of energy. Emotion, triggered by thought, can result in more intense sensation. Intense, but only through labelling either negative or positive.

What is “emotion”, again? Emotion = sensation + thought, right?
Does the sensation on its own know anything about “fear”, “joy”, “happy”, “sad”? Is it possible that sensations are just appearing and thoughts “jump” to identify them as these? Can a thought do anything (cause a sensation) if it can only try to describe whatever is happening?
Is there cause and effect without thought content? If there is only now, where could possibly cause and effect happen? Are senses and/or thoughts linked together?
Exercise:
1. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes. Lift your leg and pay attention to the sensation of “leg lifted”
2. Open your eyes and now pay attention to the sight of the leg only.
3. While looking at the leg, pay attention to the sensation of the leg.
Do sight and sensation appear simultaneously? Do they appear separately? Do they depend on each other? Is there a link between them?
Can the senses be isolated without thought content? Is the knowing of each of them separate or it’s knowing of seeing_hearing_tasting_sensing_smelling_thinking / experience?

The issue, as regards the experiencing, is that this 'content-engagement', despite the fabricated nature of this content, is automatic. And if (and to the extent) not 'debunked' by conscious awareness, it affects us, right?

So, are you not aware of the thought content, then? What is the difference between “automatic” awareness and “conscious” awareness? Isn’t it all automatic and thoughts defining it as something? Let me ask you again, are you in control of noticing/being aware? Noticing of thought content happens and noticing of DE happens. Is the one better than the other one? Better for whom? Also, does "awareness" "debunks thought content? Isn't the "debunking" also thought content? Does thought need a "thinker" to appear, or is it self-organising?

My head in DE is a patchwork of transitory sensations, much like any other body part. Bit busier than the others I (actually) feel, as thoughts seem to reside in the head only, although not in one specific area.

Really? Thoughts reside in the head? Please LOOK. Close your eyes and observe. A thought appears. Does it have a location? Does it appear in a certain place and disappear out of that place? How are the sensations “head” linked to thoughts? What is that connection made of? Do the sensations “head” have a location?

The link of head to thinking is that thinking produces sensation somewhere within the head. But, once again, clearly not linked to one place, a 'centre', but rather 'could be anywhere', yet always in the head (as far as the 'naked thought' is concerned - emotion plays out over the entire body).

How is it known that thinking produces those sensations? Is there any link without thought content? We’ve taken so many things for granted, it’s time to inspect everything through looking. Can a thought do anything besides describing what is happening? Can a thought feel (sensation), see, hear, etc?

No. And since the content is 'fabricated', there is no real negative or positive. Again, the only rub I find, is that when not paying attention we are subject to the content...

Where are these entities that are subject to the content (without thought content)? What "pays attention" to the stories? Again, what identifies with the stories, what is outside of thinking and believes it? You say the imagined self… Can an imagined entity do things? Is there really “believing”/”getting stuck” or there is just thinking ABOUT believing?

What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them with meditation?

Nothing. Again just a sensation bouncing around in, being the transitory nature of consciousness.

Is there such a thing as “transitory awareness”? Is there anything in your experience that is not experienced? Are there certain moments when there is no consciousness? How are these moments known, then? If there is an element of THIS that is always present that is the knowing element (knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS))

What do thoughts happen to?

To sensations, which may be very muted or stronger depending on the emotion associated with the thought.

Really? How is this experienced? Can sensations think, see, hear, taste, etc? What makes thinking happen? What makes sensations happen?
Look at the clouds in the sky. Are they moving according to anyone's direction? How is the appearance of thoughts, sensations, colours, sounds, etc different from the movement of the clouds?

No. It's not the point. The point is for the resistance to it to stop. Thought-content irrelevant. Sensation neutral. Freedom.

What is resistance? Resistance is a sensation and a thought. When resistance shows up it just points to what needs to be examined. It is not an enemy but a very valuable friend. The peace and freedom are here when there is no resistance to what already is (including thought stories ) Seeing that no one is here doing, thinking, living a life of a separate entity does not automatically end all resistance. It’s not a one-hit- and-that’s-it, resistance-no-longer-arises kind of deal. All those little thoughts, beliefs, should and should nots, fears, habits, stories— the whole “personality”—did not form in a day, so they do not usually collapse in a day either.

Hahahahaha, I have it there. Now I need to try not to hold on to it I guess :)

How can “you” maintained it if you are not in control of it? Will “you” ever be in control of it? Do you believe that there is an I that can wake up or be awake?
What is it that could be awake?
What is it that awakening could happen TO?
Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?
Is there someone who needs to let go of conceptualization?
Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?

Please preview your answer before you send it ;)
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey David

Please preview your answer before you send it ;)

That is ironic!!! :) I previewed mine and i still didn't see the mistake that I did.

Hahahahaha, I have it there. Now I need to try not to hold on to it I guess :)

How can “you” maintained it if you are not in control of it? Will “you” ever be in control of it? Do you believe that there is an I that can wake up or be awake?
What is it that could be awake?
What is it that awakening could happen TO?
Is there someone separate form life, waiting to wake up to reality?
Is there someone who needs to let go of conceptualization?
Or letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp what is with thoughts is recognized?
Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

Thanks a lot! I'll again need some time responding as I need to put in the time to do it properly and this wedding WE in Charleston is not giving me much of that. Hopefully tomorrow. Or Monday.

Thanks

Take care & Enjoy the WE!

David

[poppyseed]

Thanks for letteing me know, David!

[poppyseed]

Hi David
Are we still doing this? The inquiry needs a bit of momentum, which could only be achieved with everyday communication and dedication

Love
Rali

[Daaf]

Hi Rali,

We definitely are, but I'm only halfway through the task (and been working + flying back from US just now).

Will try and get you something by this evening.

Thanks!