That there is just awareness aware of itself

[nicefello]

the description of what is happening? Is there anybody that is separated from reality and needs to be reunited? What recognises the unity?

When you put it that way, I guess the description of what is happening is actually not so important. When I look, I don't see anyone who needs to be reunited, just this experience. I want to say that theres nothing that recognizes the unity, only being unity. That came first as a thought or belief but it seems to check out with my experience as well.

right?

Yes I'm with you. My habit is to investigate from thought but I'm making an effort to look directly

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I'm having trouble following this. Isn't knowing the apple just the combination of of the perceptions you listed? I feel like I can find the apple in my actual experience by the collection of perceptions together

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I'm having trouble following this. Isn't knowing the apple just the combination of of the perceptions you listed? I feel like I can find the apple in my actual experience by the collection of perceptions together

All words are symbols. All symbols are conceptual. They are not reality. Reality is what actually is, regardless of the absence or the presence of any symbol or word.
Reality is what still exists after we stopped thinking about it.

Like the word ‘apple’ is just a symbolic representation of something that is real.
But is the word ‘apple’ the real thing itself? Even if we use different labels, those labels point to the same experience – like ‘fruit’, or ‘food’, or 'object'. If you are eating an apple, but you stop thinking about it, the apple (the experience which the word points to) won’t disappear.
The actual experience (DE) remains even in the absence of labels. In this case, the word points to the same experience of colours, shapes, smells, tastes, textures, what we collectively call as an apple.
While we are talking about labels, notice the difference between the different types.
We have words for experiences (through the five senses), like ‘apple’, and we have words that label something that cannot be experienced through the five senses. These ‘things’ can only be thought of, but never experienced, since they do not actually exist. They just imagined. Like the thoughts of Santa, weather, economy, or country. That is the difference between experience and fiction.
Is this clear now? Please answer the question again having in mind the explanation above.
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

Is this clear now?

Yes, thank you for explaining.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

'Apple' is a label and direct experience does not depend on it. I don't find 'apple' in my direct experience

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie
Very good!!

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

Okay:

vacuuming

vacuum moving across floor, simply= image
smell of dust, simply= smell
pressure in my feet, simply= sensation
thinking about where to vacuum, simply= thought

sitting by the pond

bugs flying past plants, simply= image
sound of people talking, simply= sound
thoughts about what they are saying, simply= thought
warmth of the sun on my skin, simply= sensation

I've also been looking at fear= sensation + thought. I saw that the sensation itself wasn't fearful. It just was an energetic feeling running through my body. It could have even been labeled excited or joyful. But the thought had the label of fear. "I don't think I take much more of this, I better get it under control". And thinking ahead to how it was going to get worse and more threatening if I didn't do something to get control. I looked for what is being protected and I tried to look behind the fear and I found nothing. I have some doubt that I'm going through the motions conceptually with that inquiry and maybe having trouble directly experiencing it.

Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

bugs flying past plants, simply= image
sound of people talking, simply= sound
thoughts about what they are saying, simply= thought
warmth of the sun on my skin, simply= sensation

Very good! I can see you get how to look

I've also been looking at fear= sensation + thought. I saw that the sensation itself wasn't fearful. It just was an energetic feeling running through my body. It could have even been labeled excited or joyful. But the thought had the label of fear. "I don't think I take much more of this, I better get it under control". And thinking ahead to how it was going to get worse and more threatening if I didn't do something to get control. I looked for what is being protected and I tried to look behind the fear and I found nothing.

Very good. So you see, it just a thought. And thoughts are not reality. They just try to describe what is happening based on previous conditioning. That sensation can be described in so many other ways – “exciting” or “joyful” as you mentioned.

I have some doubt that I'm going through the motions conceptually with that inquiry and maybe having trouble directly experiencing it.

No worries! We are only starting…
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

I had something come up yesterday, but I'm still with you. Thank you

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

No

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

no, it seems like theres no doer

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No they arise in and of themselves.

s there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

No I'm not controlling them. The flow is free. The idea that I can influence the flow is coming up but that is part of the flow too. which I'm not dictating.

Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

I don't know where they come from. Somewhere imperceptible or nowhere. they appear somewhat randomly but also depend on conditions

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

no

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

no

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

no. It seems like I can suppress a thought for a moment but then the stream of thinking leaks around my barrier after a couple seconds.

Are thoughts 100% true?

no!

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I am the flow of experience.

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

no, it seems like theres no doer

“Seems like” and “feels like” suggest thought content. In DE nothing is seems like – it’s either there or not. So LOOK and see if there is a thinker/doer or not. What do they look like? Do they speak? Is there a narrator? Does it listen or does it speak?

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I am the flow of experience.

Are you trying to replace the self with something else? Is the flow personal?
Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?
Is it what you've taken as "you"? Are you awareness?
Please don’t answer automatically

Love
Rali

[nicefello]

So LOOK and see if there is a thinker/doer or not.

Theres no thinker or doer to be found.

Are you trying to replace the self with something else? Is the flow personal?

The flow is not personal

Can you tell if there is a being or just being?

Well theres this body, which appears to be a being. and its part of the bigger field which is just being

Is life happening to a being or as being?

as being, as creation

Is that “aliveness” any kind of object or subject? Is it even a human?

I sat with this for a while and my direct experience is that its not an object or subject or human. but that direct experience seems to come and go. Like it takes focus to see that

Is it what you've taken as "you"? Are you awareness?

When I look closely, I am awareness. That is all I could be. and I have some reservation about saying that. Like I'm holding back

Thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie

Is it what you've taken as "you"? Are you awareness?

When I look closely, I am awareness. That is all I could be. and I have some reservation about saying that. Like I'm holding back

Is it possible that the absence of a doer/thinker is just that – an absence? Why does it have to be replaced with something else? Does this “awareness” speak, how does it look like? LOOK, don’t just jump to conclusions! Is life happening like in language where you have to have a subject, an action and an object? Your DE shows so far that there are no objects (“apple”) and no subject (doer/thinker), so what is there? In the sentence “I hear a sound”, is there a listener who listens to a sound, or just hearing? Is there a border that determines where the sound starts and the hearing of it stops? Are there "solid" sounds floating around? Is there a listener there? What do they look like?
Please watch this video, it might bring a bit more clarity on what I'm pointing to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_4YKU

Well there’s this body, which appears to be a being. and its part of the bigger field which is just being

Let’s examine what “body” is…
1. Please take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

Is it possible that the absence of a doer/thinker is just that – an absence? Why does it have to be replaced with something else? Does this “awareness” speak, how does it look like?

Yes thats possible. It doesn't have to be replaced by something else. but I find this story of everything being made of awareness to be compelling so I end up interpreting my experience in that way. Or mapping that story onto my experience. All of this is just happening. the awareness does not speak. What it looks like is everything that arises in perception.

Is life happening like in language where you have to have a subject, an action and an object?

no, there is just the happening

so what is there? In the sentence “I hear a sound”, is there a listener who listens to a sound, or just hearing? Is there a border that determines where the sound starts and the hearing of it stops? Are there "solid" sounds floating around? Is there a listener there? What do they look like?

The sounds of the birds are arising. They are fluid and unbounded. There is no listener

a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

sensation labelled cold. when I close my eyes, it still seemed to be in my hand. but I let go of the projection onto my experience and then the sensation did not have location.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

I cant know how tall. No wieght or volume, just sensation of pressure and fullness. no shape or form. no boundary between body and chair, just one sensation. There is no owner of the body. The label body refers to sensations. The actual experience of the body is sensations. pressure fullness expansion tightness. The body doesn't do things, the sensations just change

thank you

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie
Very good!

Yes thats possible. It doesn't have to be replaced by something else. but I find this story of everything being made of awareness to be compelling so I end up interpreting my experience in that way. Or mapping that story onto my experience. All of this is just happening. the awareness does not speak. What it looks like is everything that arises in perception.

The sounds of the birds are arising. They are fluid and unbounded. There is no listener

Now, let’s make sure there is no stone unturned. Is the knowing/being aware of the sound separate from the sound? Is there an entity called awareness? Can there be awareness without objects (sensations, sounds, etc)? Are there sounds without awareness? Now, would awareness of the sound exist without the sound? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from teachings! What is there when you look for awareness?
There is aware/knowing aspect of that sound. There is a noticing/noting/knowing/being aware of that sound, which hopefully you can see. But are the senses and the knowing of them separate or it’s all one inseparable knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS)?
Also, when you say, “The sounds of the birds are arising” , are sounds the object of hearing? Are they waiting around to be heard?
To name them "sounds" of “birds” is a thought - there's only hearing there (action, verb), there are no things "out there" (remember “apple”). Hearing is hearing no matter how different (difference/content of what is heard is a subject of thought). Hearing is happening right now, and right now, and right now - always fresh, not dependent on anything. It’s the same to what you described about sensations – “pressure”, “fullness”, “expansion”, “tightness” are all sensing right now and only thought differentiates among them, describing them as “these”. Is that clear?

The body doesn't do things, the sensations just change

Very good observation!
Love
Rali

[nicefello]

Is the knowing/being aware of the sound separate from the sound? Is there an entity called awareness?

there is just the hearing, without separation. without an entity

Can there be awareness without objects (sensations, sounds, etc)? Are there sounds without awareness? Now, would awareness of the sound exist without the sound?

awareness and the objects are one. they make up each other

What is there when you look for awareness?

sensations

But are the senses and the knowing of them separate or it’s all one inseparable knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS)? are sounds the object of hearing? Are they waiting around to be heard?

there is no gap. awareness arises as the object itself

Is that clear?

there is just this field of sensation and thought appears to break it up into discrete parts

Thank you

[nicefello]

field of continuous sensation

[poppyseed]

Hi Jackie
Good!!!

awareness and the objects are one. they make up each other

You see for me this still comes too close to language (thought content). Reality is very fluid, in a constant flux – more like a verb than subject and objects (even if they are one). Aware experiencing/What IS/THIS comes closer as it is dynamic and indescribable :)

What is there when you look for awareness?

sensations

Only? What about the rest of senses? Are there no aware seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and thinking?

there is just this field of sensation and thought appears to break it up into discrete parts

field of continuous sensation

Again! Why are sensations the most important of the senses? Are you using the label “sensations” as the object of the senses or as the object of sensing (touch)? You can see here the problem with the emptiness of labels – they can mean different things to different people, as well as different meaning at different times :)
Just to be clear, according to Oxford dictionary, a sensation is:
“a physical feeling or perception resulting from something that happens to or comes into contact with the body”
But yes, we don’t experience our senses individually. Rather, these are different aspects of experience. Thought tells us that our senses are separate streams of information. We see with our eyes, hear with our ears, feel with our skin, smell with our nose, taste with our tongue. In DE, though, it is seen as a one inseparable experience -knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS). Is this clear or you need more pointers?

Love
Rali