I've exhausted the search, now it's time to be real

[tk12443]

A mirage of an oasis might seem real until it is inspected and it is seen that it is not there and it was never there, only the desert. Is that clear?

The thought itself is a thing, it is real. The content of the thought - the belief that the oasis exists and will quench your thirst is not real and never was real. Inspection with the senses ie. sight, smell, sounds, touch, taste would lead to an understanding of the reality of the "oasis".

[tk12443]

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

I will work with this today. Thanks Rali!

[tk12443]

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Hearing birds chirp, woodpeckers peck, simply = sound
Seeing Carpenter Bees boring into the soffits, simply = shapes & color
Feeling a breeze on the skin, simply = sensation
Thoughts about doing chores because it is Saturday, simply = thoughts
Taste the aftertaste of the first cup of coffee, simply = taste

Making a burrito for lunch and feeling the heat in my fingers as I roll it up, simply = touch sensation
Feeling hungry as I pause to type before I eat, simply = sensation + thought ( the sensation of hunger is real and the thought is real but the content of the thought that goes on about “hunger” is not real)
Taking a bite and tasting first the sour cream, then the saltiness of the seasonings, simply = taste
Hearing the dryer behind me for a second before thinking about the labelling of the source, simply = hearing
The crunch of an onion as I chew, simply = sound + sensation

[poppyseed]

Hi TK

Hearing birds chirp, woodpeckers peck, simply = sound
Seeing Carpenter Bees boring into the soffits, simply = shapes & color
Feeling a breeze on the skin, simply = sensation
Thoughts about doing chores because it is Saturday, simply = thoughts
Taste the aftertaste of the first cup of coffee, simply = taste

Very good!

Making a burrito for lunch and feeling the heat in my fingers as I roll it up, simply = touch sensation…

Feeling hungry as I pause to type before I eat, simply = sensation + thought ( the sensation of hunger is real and the thought is real but the content of the thought that goes on about “hunger” is not real)

What is the difference between “touch” sensation and “hunger” sensation without thought content? Let’s explore sensations…
1. Please take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[tk12443]

What is the difference between “touch” sensation and “hunger” sensation without thought content? Let’s explore sensations…

No difference, both are sensations, anything after that is a label.

1. Please take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience – a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear? Observe the order in which the details appear

Fingers cannot feel cold, there is only a sensation and then, “cold” is overlayed onto the experience by mind. And then “fingers” is added to the mix. And them “my finger” and then “aversion” and so on. The sensation of “cold” is real, the additional layers of labelling is useful at times but not real.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?

Nothing can be “known” for knowing implies content of thought. The thought is real, the content is not real. Tall is a label mind uses to describe distance between foot and head.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

One could measure these characteristics with certain tools but only the sensation (or site) of the measurement is real. The “body” does not have weight or volume because there is no “body”. Body is a complex set of labels used by mind to describe billions of little parts that themselves do not exist in reality. And down and down and down - like a fractal (except fractals don’t exist either - just a label).

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Again, shape and form can be experienced by touch, sight and other senses. Only the sensory experience of shape and form is real. The body does not “have” a shape or form because there is not body and there is no “have”. Semantic but true.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

No boundary. After the experience or sensation, when thinking about this as an exercise, a “boundary” between “body” and “clothing” and “chair” can be added as an overlay of thoughts fairly easily but the content of these thoughts are labels and are an illusion. Helpful for us to get through the day, but not real in the ultimate sense.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It is both not “my” body and not a “body”. Body is a very complex multi-layered label that is used in language (by mind) to communicate with other “people” who also rely on the concept of “body”. If we didn’t use labels, it would be difficult for our nervous systems and brains to interface with other “bodies” in the absence of something like “telepathy”.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Again, “body” is a complex, multi-layered concept that can be influenced by a myriad of perceived internal and external pressures and is primarily used to facilitate communication with other “people” who have human brains. The actual experience of “body” is at the level of sense. My “body” has evolved to allow for stereo hearing and sight, taste with a tongue, sensations of touch and temperature and humidity through skin and nerves. I can notice feelings and I can have thoughts. Anything after that is mind labelling.

Of course, the “body” cannot do things for there is no “body” to do things. It’s just a label. A complex one - but just a label.

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

You got me with the apple Rali. Really quite direct and powerful - thank you so much. Absolutely amazing! Simple but amazing. For some reason, this simple equation: emotion = sensation + thoughts was the transmission. And realizing that thoughts are real but the content of thoughts is not was the 1 -2 punch I needed. Who knew?

Todd

[poppyseed]

Hi Todd

No difference, both are sensations, anything after that is a label.

Great!

One could measure these characteristics with certain tools but only the sensation (or site) of the measurement is real. The “body” does not have weight or volume because there is no “body”. Body is a complex set of labels used by mind to describe billions of little parts that themselves do not exist in reality. And down and down and down - like a fractal (except fractals don’t exist either - just a label).

Remember the colour of socks example… If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
And you agreed that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?
So, in this case, you are sitting comfortably on a chair with eyes closed and relaxing. You are paying attention only to the feeling of your body. Now, notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look! When I ask: “Can it be known how tall the body is?”, you should just check in DE and answer: “yes, this and this is experienced” OR “No, nothing in DE suggests how tall the body is”. Everything else sounds like a logical conclusion of previously learned things ( even if it is learned recently :) ). What we want to see is what is actually here when we look, right?

Please repeat the exercise and answer from DE!
Love
Rali

[tk12443]

Remember the colour of socks example… If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
And you agreed that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?
So, in this case, you are sitting comfortably on a chair with eyes closed and relaxing. You are paying attention only to the feeling of your body. Now, notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look! When I ask: “Can it be known how tall the body is?”, you should just check in DE and answer: “yes, this and this is experienced” OR “No, nothing in DE suggests how tall the body is”. Everything else sounds like a logical conclusion of previously learned things ( even if it is learned recently :) ). What we want to see is what is actually here when we look, right?

Please repeat the exercise and answer from DE!

Can it be known how tall the body is?

Eyes closed direct experience cannot know how tall the body is - only experience sensation.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

The body does not have a weight. When looking at sensations, the body does not have a volume.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

There is no boundary between body and chair. There is only sensation.

[poppyseed]

Hi Todd

Very good!!!
Just to clear this out...

My “body” has evolved to allow for stereo hearing and sight, taste with a tongue, sensations of touch and temperature and humidity through skin and nerves. I can notice feelings and I can have thoughts. Anything after that is mind labelling.
Of course, the “body” cannot do things for there is no “body” to do things. It’s just a label. A complex one - but just a label.

If we didn’t use labels, it would be difficult for our nervous systems and brains to interface with other “bodies” in the absence of something like “telepathy”.

How are ‘skin’, ‘nerves’, ‘brain’, and ‘nervous system’ experienced in DE?
Yes, labels are useful for communication, but it’s important to notice that some point to existing stuff – like sensations- and others point to non-existing stuff (like ‘I’, ‘others’, ‘Santa’, etc)

For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.
In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?
Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance?
Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Are thoughts 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[tk12443]

How are ‘skin’, ‘nerves’, ‘brain’, and ‘nervous system’ experienced in DE?

Skin, nerves, and brain cannot be experienced - only sensations are experienced.


For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears.

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

Just awareness.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

There is awareness of the thought and there is the content of the thought.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear? Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Thoughts appear and change and disappear naturally in awareness. Any thought has already occurred - I could not have made a different thought appear in its place.

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No, thoughts naturally come and go.

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

Yes, with more thoughts, problem solving and creativity can occur. Meditation can induce states that reduce the frequency of thoughts, etc.

Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Watch like a hawk.

Thoughts appear - I do not know from where. There may be a structure to thought but it appears random.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:

Write down a series of 5 thoughts.
Writing will interrupt the 5 thoughts.
It doesn’t matter because that too is the next thought.
What’s the next thought?
There’s a typo, go back and correct it.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

No, predicting is more thought and would alter their appearance.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No. You would never know if you tried. There will always be one more thought and it could very well be the one you prevented previously.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

No, you can only replace it with more thoughts.

Are thoughts 100% true?

No.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Awareness.

[poppyseed]

Hi Todd

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

Just awareness.

There is awareness of the thought and there is the content of the thought.

Thoughts appear and change and disappear naturally in awareness. Any thought has already occurred - I could not have made a different thought appear in its place.

Is awareness a container for thoughts (experiences)? Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “ appearing and disappearing”? Is the knowing/being aware of thoughts separate from the thoughts? Is there a visible border? Where does awareness stop and the thoughts start? Is there an entity called awareness? What does it look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Can there be awareness without objects (sensations, sounds, etc)? Are there thoughts without awareness? Now, would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from teachings! What is there when you look for awareness?

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Awareness.

That sounds very much like a teaching which we agreed to leave behind for now.
Are you awareness?
Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Is there an owner of being?

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

Yes, with more thoughts, problem solving and creativity can occur. Meditation can induce states that reduce the frequency of thoughts, etc.

So how is it known that the thoughts are changed? Is it possible that the order of their appearance was meant to be this way anyway? It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

No, predicting is more thought and would alter their appearance.

How is this known? Do you have a way to know what the sequence would look like otherwise or is this an assumption?

When you answer the questions, please don't try to find a logical answer or to remember from teachings. The only way to do the inquiry is with actual LOOKING. We've taken so many things for granted without checking their validity. It's time to change this if you want to find truth. If I ask you to look for your phone or keys, you would quite naturally, without forcing it, take a look with your own two eyes and locate them. That’s how you LOOK. Is this clear?

Love
Rali

[tk12443]

Is awareness a container for thoughts (experiences)?

That is a decent analogy - but a “container” with no boundaries. It just is. Infinity.

Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “ appearing and disappearing”?

Yes, appearing and disappearing but no, not solid - not objects.

Is the knowing/being aware of thoughts separate from the thoughts?

No. Thoughts and awareness are the same.

Is there a visible border?

No, just infinity. No beginning, no end, no time, no space.

Where does awareness stop and the thoughts start?

Awareness never stops. Thoughts don’t start, they appear and disappear.

Is there an entity called awareness?

No, there just is.

What does it look like?

It looks like infinity. Clear possibility.

Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses?

It doesn’t speak, there is speaking, feeling, thinking, tasting, seeing, and smelling. It is awareness.

Can there be awareness without objects (sensations, sounds, etc)?

There is only awareness without objects. For sure, there is awareness during sleep in the absence of sensations and sound for example. There is awareness during a C-section even though the sensation may be blocked, etc. There is awareness in a coma.

Are there thoughts without awareness?

There are no thoughts without awareness.

Now, would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts?

Awareness exists in the absence of thoughts but awareness of a thought cannot exist without the thought.

Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from teachings! What is there when you look for awareness?

I don’t look “for” awareness, I look “at” awareness with my senses - touch, sight, smell, thinking, taste, and hearing. Even that is not a good way to say it. I am aware(ness).

Looking "for" something implies that it is not here but somewhere else.

That sounds very much like a teaching which we agreed to leave behind for now.
Are you awareness?

I am.

Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?

Just being.

Is life happening to a being or as being?

As being.

Is there an owner of being?

No.

So how is it known that the thoughts are changed?

It cannot be known, only debated.

Is it possible that the order of their appearance was meant to be this way anyway?

Anything is possible but this cannot be known.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Why would awareness exist if it was ordered?

How is this known? Do you have a way to know what the sequence would look like otherwise or is this an assumption?

No way to know, just a thought experiment.

[poppyseed]

Hi Todd
There is a lot of contradictions in your answer. I can see which is coming from DE and which is coming from teachings.
Presume that you’ve never heard the term awareness and how it is used in non-duality teachings. How would you describe the process of thinking with the senses?

No. Thoughts and awareness are the same.

Awareness exists in the absence of thoughts but awareness of a thought cannot exist without the thought.

That is a decent analogy - but a “container” with no boundaries. It just is. Infinity.

Again, how is this observed? You said that there are not two things, but all your other “descriptions” point to two things – an object (thoughts) and a subject (awareness, permeating them). That is the problem with thoughts/language – they create a doer out of thin air. They also try to carefully describe and categorise everything in separate objects. But LOOK if awareness cannot be separated from its objects then is there such a ‘thing’ as awareness and such a ‘thing’ as thoughts/colours/sounds, etc.?
If they are the same – one – how can you experience awareness on its own and describe it with the senses? How is this experienced with the senses? Is awareness invisible, untouchable, silent, etc? If that is the case how is it different from imagination – it must be assumed then? Everything that cannot be described with the senses is a belief, right?
Also, don’t you think it’s a bit dualistic – a subject and an object reality – like in a language format. Is life happening like a language? Look at the sentence “ I hear a sound”. Is there a listener who hears a sound or just the experience of hearing?

When you say that awareness exists without an object, how is this experienced? Even with your eyes closed, there is still red light coming through the eye lids. Even in a complete darkness (like in a sensory deprivation tank) there are still sensations of a heart beating, breathing – aliveness. Is it possible to experience awareness alone? Please describe the DE of it.

There is a noticing/noting/knowing/being aware of an experience ( thinking, sensing, smelling, etc), which hopefully you can see. But are the senses and the knowing of them separate or it’s all one inseparable knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing (THIS)?

That sounds very much like a teaching which we agreed to leave behind for now.
Are you awareness?

I am.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

Awareness.

Are you trying to replace the small “self’ with a big ‘Self’? Do you see how thought “wants’ to appropriate experiences and create a story? Is it possible that what you are without thinking is just an absence of a ‘you’?
Please watch this video, it might bring a bit more clarity on what I'm pointing to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_4YKU&t=10s

Love
Rali

[tk12443]

After reading through your last post a couple of times, I don't know. It will take some time to look and feel through your pointers. Difficult to refrain from replacing one belief with another.

It is not clear how to separate subject from object - intuition feels like they are one

[poppyseed]

Hey Todd

After reading through your last post a couple of times, I don't know. It will take some time to look and feel through your pointers. Difficult to refrain from replacing one belief with another.

Nobody is asking you to replace old beliefs with new. Just LOOK and see what is actually here. Seeing is wordless, and immediate. As soon as a label or a story is added, the immediacy of experience is veiled by conceptualization. Any form of description is an abstraction, which is added after the immediate experience. The thoughts or the stories by themselves are not problematic, only believing them creates the illusion of their realness. In direct experience, there are just thoughts and images passing by – empty, meaningless. Their meanings emerge only when they are believed and not seen for what they are – simply just thoughts.

It is not clear how to separate subject from object - intuition feels like they are one

Yes!!! They cannot be separated. It’s all one inseparable knowing(aware)_hearing_seeing_thinking_smelling_tasting_sensing or just THIS/What IS. What is an intuition, though?
Please, spend some more time with the pointers and watch the video. Let me know how it goes please.
Love
Rali

[tk12443]

Hi Rali. I watched the video and looked at DE a handful of times today. I will go through and look at what you wrote again tomorrow. Thank you :)

TK