Flying

[JonathanR]

Good evening Aguila

. I cannot find anything creating a thought.
Looking closer there is maybe a certain receptivity, a readiness to perceive the thought. Awareness

Well, I know what you mean if you're talking about a certain natural inquisitiveness and readiness but is there any separation between the thought appearing and the perception of it?

What if the thought that shows up simply shows up? It's noticed but by what?

. Well, as I mentioned I find myself bombarded with thoughts that “I” certainly did not create. At least not on purpose? Oh boy, this is getting complicated

:-)

. All right, tons of thoughts pop up on their own accord. Having said that: by concentrating and hard effort “I” seem to be able to introduce SOME pleasant thoughts for a certain period of time. I can decide to refocus. Coming back to your question: I know this is stupid but I still have the impression that “I” can to a very small extent with great effort create thoughts - but mostly they do not belong to “me” and therefore come as “they want”, pleasant or unpleasant.

It's not stupid. Impressions are what the illusion of self is all about. Smoke and mirrors. There seems to be an entity involved. It's quite a convincing until its seen.

. Honestly: part of “me” still thinks this is the case and I should get better control of my thoughts (and my life) - the biggest part of “me” somehow seems to have given up, realizing that thoughts just come and go.

Interesting. It looks like you've one foot across the Gateless gate and one foot still on this side.

Does the prospect of letting go of what has always seemed to be "yourself" cause anxiety or nervousness ? If so it could help for us to look at that.

All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

Good morning Jon,

Well, I know what you mean if you're talking about a certain natural inquisitiveness and readiness but is there any separation between the thought appearing and the perception of it?

No. The appearing and the perception seem to be the identical event.

What if the thought that shows up simply shows up? It's noticed but by what?

That seems to be the case, I cannot find a “noticer”. Unless I call the following thought so. Thought follows thought. And then another thought.

Interesting. It looks like you've one foot across the Gateless gate and one foot still on this side.

If you put it that way it sounds stressful - albeit promising?

Does the prospect of letting go of what has always seemed to be "yourself" cause anxiety or nervousness ? If so it could help for us to look at that.

There certainly is. On one hand the excitement of an adventure, on the other hand something like “if I give up my feet - how will I walk?”. Like jumping out of an airplane and being unsure if the parachute will open. If there is one at all, I guess. The belief or rather necessity that “I” need to take care of myself or I am doomed, is deeply ingrained in “myself”. That I need to organize and steer things to survive. Little trust in life or anything. Having said that another part of me knows very well that it is a miracle to be alive at all and that anything can happen anytime, that I just need to go with the flow, enjoy what is there, that I am out of control. Mostly. ;-) This part is desperate to let go of the illusion of "I".
All the best

Aguila

[Aguila]

One more aspect that keeps popping up: looking beyond "I" seems to imply that there is no free will. On one hand that makes total sense, on the other it pulls the carpet from under "my" feet (back to the parachute image).

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

. That seems to be the case, I cannot find a “noticer”. Unless I call the following thought so. Thought follows thought. And then another thought.

That's interesting. Yes. One thought does seem to follow the previous one. Is there any doubt that thoughts themselves show up?

Thoughts can be about anything (and often are). Images, stories, words, often referencing a "me". "Me" in a "past", "me" in a "future".

[JonathanR]

Sorry...I accidentally posted that before it was complete:

If you put it that way it sounds stressful - albeit promising?

Sorry. It wasn't meant to be stressful. Maybe a better way is to say you seem very motivated and very ready to inquire, which is a good thing.

. Like jumping out of an airplane and being unsure if the parachute will open. If there is one at all, I guess. The belief or rather necessity that “I” need to take care of myself or I am doomed, is deeply ingrained in “myself”.

Yes. And really, if there is no self how could there ever have been one in the first place ? If that's the case then this falling without a parachute is happening anyway. But as Alan Watts once remarked
you may be falling but there's no need to be afraid because there's no bottom ,no ground that you'd crash into.

Presumably you've taken care of yourself all these years ....without a fixed , separate self? If it's now recognised that there never was a self what would have to change about this looking after? But there certainly can be anxious and protective thoughts during self inquiry.

Try this:. Sit quietly and notice the anxious thoughts about potential "doom" . As they appear thank them very much for turning up to protect. The instinct to protect is a kind of love (albeit slightly misguided in this context). Give the protective instinct, the anxiety a big hug and tell it that you love it so much for it's loyal efforts to defend . But it can relax now. Nobody can be harmed , nobody will be hurt.Nobody will face doom. It's possible to relax.

See how that goes.

Best wishes

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon

Thoughts can be about anything (and often are). Images, stories, words, often referencing a "me". "Me" in a "past", "me" in a "future".

That sounds like SUCH a simplification! Which is both relaxing and frightening - am “I” worth so little?
Well, “I” am a miracle (see below) - what else is there to desire???
Is this the “I” again wanting to make a fuss? Maybe, and maybe this is rationalizing it, but “I” just cannot imagine that something as complex as a human life form does not have some worth in itself. Interesting thinking, but probably more philosophical than anything else.

Presumably you've taken care of yourself all these years ....without a fixed , separate self? If it's now recognised that there never was a self what would have to change about this looking after?

Absolutely nothing!

Try this:. Sit quietly and notice the anxious thoughts about potential "doom" . As they appear thank them very much for turning up to protect. The instinct to protect is a kind of love (albeit slightly misguided in this context). Give the protective instinct, the anxiety a big hug and tell it that you love it so much for it's loyal efforts to defend . But it can relax now. Nobody can be harmed , nobody will be hurt.Nobody will face doom. It's possible to relax.

That was an interesting sitting. Not quite what was expected. Somehow talking to an instinct or emotion felt difficult or wrong here. I have done similar exercises before, but here I was considering “is that a thought? were is it in my body?...” Somehow I was too detached, I could not anthropomorphize the feelings. The concept of love in this context and acknowledging the effort also seemed too… complex somehow. Like too many colors for something that is just black and white? Don’t know how to describe it. A few realizations occurred instead. At some point, while looking at the question “who has taken care of me if not myself?” I realized that it was life itself. I suddenly saw that more appropriately than speaking of “I” would be to use the third person and speak of “this (unique) life form”. And this unique life form as such is a miracle in itself (something I often have heard but never quite understood beyond cognition), a lot has to come together for it to happen. Then it has a decent genetic setup delivered by the parents (or evolution?), an appropriate upbringing and education - all training the system to take care of itself. No "I" needed indeed! That feels SO reassuring.

So where am I now on the anxious thoughts after this? I have been trying to focus on the question all day long, but “something” seems to be upset and in turmoil, no clear picture, sense, thought. I will keep trying but want to send this off.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

Thanks for posting.

. “I” just cannot imagine that something as complex as a human life form does not have some worth in itself.

Who said anything about lack of worth? Life itself seems very valuable.

. am “I” worth so little?

This inquiry is not about negating anyone nor placing a low value on anyone. It's not about judging anyone.

It isn't ABOUT anyone either.

. At some point, while looking at the question “who has taken care of me if not myself?” I realized that it was life itself

Well, yes :-)

. I suddenly saw that more appropriately than speaking of “I” would be to use the third person and speak of “this (unique) life form”. And this unique life form as such is a miracle in itself (something I often have heard but never quite understood beyond cognition), a lot has to come together for it to happen. Then it has a decent genetic setup delivered by the parents (or evolution?), an appropriate upbringing and education - all training the system to take care of itself. No "I" needed indeed! That feels SO reassuring.

This is more or less how it started to look to me too. Far from worthless. Some kind of ongoing miracle , yes. And the illusion of "I" is even part of it , just not a fixed unchanging, separate entity ?

. but “something” seems to be upset and in turmoil, no clear picture, sense, thought. I will keep trying but want to send this off.

This is why you must take things gently right now, in as relaxed a spirit as possible . If you get the chance, go for a walk in nature, in a park or by the sea,. When you're there take some minutes to notice everything , the weather, sky, trees, animals, all the life going on around. Notice also any thoughts and feelings. Then look for any line or edge within the experience behind which "you" are and beyond which lies "everything else". Can this line be found?

Best wishes

Jon

[Aguila]

Who said anything about lack of worth? Life itself seems very valuable. …

This inquiry is not about negating anyone nor placing a low value on anyone. It's not about judging anyone.

It isn't ABOUT anyone either.

I know. I think the value(s) just needs to shift. My whole life long “I” seemed the most important, valuable thing to take care of (not that “I” managed too well sometimes). If that dissolves - value needs to be somewhere else. Though maybe it’s not even the right word. Value in the sense of “what is (most) important”.

This is more or less how it started to look to me too. Far from worthless. Some kind of ongoing miracle , yes. And the illusion of "I" is even part of it , just not a fixed unchanging, separate entity ?

Certainly. I like the image of “I” being sort of an organizing principle (concept, group of thoughts) for daily life. Helpful.

This is why you must take things gently right now, in as relaxed a spirit as possible . If you get the chance, go for a walk in nature, in a park or by the sea,. When you're there take some minutes to notice everything , the weather, sky, trees, animals, all the life going on around. Notice also any thoughts and feelings. Then look for any line or edge within the experience behind which "you" are and beyond which lies "everything else". Can this line be found?

No.
First I kept focusing on the boundary of the body, which seemed an obvious line. Even though it is not a real edge, more like a door with a bouncer, where appropriate stuff can get in or out, most obviously with breathing. But it felt like the sense of “I” ended about 1 foot away of my skin, like the body was in an "I"-bubble. Looking closer it felt totally absurd to have the thought “I” claim space at all. Once that felt for a split second like falling into a vacuum. Then it was more a sense of “here is this body, over there is the tree, there the sky”. Maybe like just another piece on a board of chess.
Nevertheless there was this relentless voice saying something like “but aren’t you different? This is YOU.” :-(

All the best

Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

. I know. I think the value(s) just needs to shift. My whole life long “I” seemed the most important, valuable thing to take care of (not that “I” managed too well sometimes). If that dissolves - value needs to be somewhere else.

What thinks this?

Will some thing dissolve?

What if the illusion of self continues to appear and can now be seen ? In other words it's recognised as a network of stories.

. First I kept focusing on the boundary of the body, which seemed an obvious line. Even though it is not a real edge, more like a door with a bouncer, where appropriate stuff can get in or out,

Is there a self contained inside a body?

. Nevertheless there was this relentless voice saying something like “but aren’t you different? This is YOU.” :-(

"Different" from what?

We must address this anxiety. (It's very common by the way,). My suggestion about talking to the anxiety didn't help very much. Let's try something else :

Sit comfortably where you will not be disturbed and imagine an endless stretch of flat desert, as far as the eye can see.. You are walking along when you notice that you are approaching a closed door standing upright within a door frame, exactly where you want to walk. It is blocking your way forward.

You try the handle but something prevents you from opening it There's no way forward. What could be blocking the way or preventing the door from opening? It's impossible to tell. The door is opaque and shut fast.

What to do? There it is, blocking the path forward and no way to see what might be on the other side, holding the door shut or preventing it from being opened.

But wait, there are no walls. So it could be possible to take a look around the side of the door frame to find out what might be on the other side. Who knows what it is, whether it's something to be afraid of or not much at all? At least you will find out.

See how that goes?


All the best

Jon

[Aguila]

. I know. I think the value(s) just needs to shift. My whole life long “I” seemed the most important, valuable thing to take care of (not that “I” managed too well sometimes). If that dissolves - value needs to be somewhere else.

What thinks this?

YAT
Yet another thought. Around “I”. Trying to make sense of the world. Trying to be helpful, useful.

Will some thing dissolve?

Not really, no thing, no entity. Only the impression that “I” is something fixed, dependable…

What if the illusion of self continues to appear and can now be seen ? In other words it's recognised as a network of stories.

That makes sense. A big number of stories. It feels like I should always look behind a thought if it contains an "I". Maybe like looking behind a mirror to ensure there is no real person. Well, but then again: who is doing the looking? Seems I am going in circles?

Is there a self contained inside a body?

No. It just seemed to be the most obvious starting point for the search for an edge. Everything else that makes up an “I” in my definition is fuzzy anyway. It is more like a specific sense of “I” seems to be associated with a specific body - in “my” case with the name Aguila.

. Nevertheless there was this relentless voice saying something like “but aren’t you different? This is YOU.” :-(

"Different" from what?

I meant different from all other things existing besides this body. Somehow this body seems separate and closer than all other things. Closer to "me", to this concept of "I".

We must address this anxiety. (It's very common by the way,). My suggestion about talking to the anxiety didn't help very much. Let's try something else :

Sit comfortably where you will not be disturbed and imagine an endless stretch of flat desert, as far as the eye can see.. You are walking along when you notice that you are approaching a closed door standing upright within a door frame, exactly where you want to walk. It is blocking your way forward.

You try the handle but something prevents you from opening it There's no way forward. What could be blocking the way or preventing the door from opening? It's impossible to tell. The door is opaque and shut fast.

What to do? There it is, blocking the path forward and no way to see what might be on the other side, holding the door shut or preventing it from being opened.

But wait, there are no walls. So it could be possible to take a look around the side of the door frame to find out what might be on the other side. Who knows what it is, whether it's something to be afraid of or not much at all? At least you will find out.

See how that goes?

I really can imagine this desert (I love deserts). No hesitation: I want to see the other side, I look around the frame. And there is nothing (besides the desert).
Not sure if this is helpful. Is my brain oversimplifying?

But I have also been coming back to the other exercise about talking to the anxiety. I realize that I find it hard to reconnect with the feeling. I keep reading again and again how we came to talk about it in the first place so I can recreate it. It seems to constantly slip away. I finally tried to nail it down with words like “I must do this or that to achieve xy, to survive, to…”, to recreate the tightness in the stomach. That helped to make it more tangible and easy to address. After acknowledging it, thanking it and assuring there is no reason to be defensive - surprisingly enough there was an almost immediate sigh with the tension releasing.

All the best

Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

. It feels like I should always look behind a thought if it contains an "I". Maybe like looking behind a mirror to ensure there is no real person. Well, but then again: who is doing the looking? Seems I am going in circles?

Is there a separate "I" that does looking?

What if the looking that happens happens regardless of thoughts about a "one who does it'?

. It is more like a specific sense of “I” seems to be associated with a specific body - in “my” case with the name Aguila.

That's interesting. Yes, labels, language, naming. Are words rather like thoughts?

Does language have a part in keeping the "self" illusion seeming real?

. I meant different from all other things existing besides this body. Somehow this body seems separate and closer than all other things. Closer to "me", to this concept of "I".

Then we must explore this perception very soon. Please remind me to ask you about colour.

. I really can imagine this desert (I love deserts). No hesitation: I want to see the other side, I look around the frame. And there is nothing (besides the desert).
Not sure if this is helpful. Is my brain oversimplifying?

This is fine. Thanks.

. After acknowledging it, thanking it and assuring there is no reason to be defensive - surprisingly enough there was an almost immediate sigh with the tension releasing.

This sounds good. It has very likely helped. Good work! It may well be worth doing this again if feelings of anxiety come again.

Best wishes

Jon

[Aguila]

Good evening Jon,

Is there a separate "I" that does looking?

What if the looking that happens happens regardless of thoughts about a "one who does it'?

Well , there is just looking. Looking at the thoughts about "I". The "I" just keep sneaking in. :-(

That's interesting. Yes, labels, language, naming. Are words rather like thoughts?

Feels like it. A lot of thinking happens verbally, I would say. Words can be concepts, capturing a whole set of thoughts.

Does language have a part in keeping the "self" illusion seeming real?

Certainly. "Me" is a word, a very easy to handle summary for a highly complex set of thoughts. Like a personification

Then we must explore this perception very soon. Please remind me to ask you about colour.

. Noted.

This sounds good. It has very likely helped. Good work! It may well be worth doing this again if feelings of anxiety come again.

Good, I will have an eye on it. Thank you!

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hello Aguila

. A lot of thinking happens verbally, I would say. Words can be concepts, capturing a whole set of thoughts.

The role of language and labelling can be an important area to investigate. Here's an exercise.

Use a blank piece of A4 paper and a pen or pencil.

Rule a vertical line down the centre of the sheet.

Sit comfortably at table with this and spend a few minutes noticing what's going on. Write a list of short thought-phrases down the left hand side as the thoughts occur. For example, I'm sitting here now in a room and this could be a few lines:

I think about what to notice

I move my hand

I type some words

I wonder what Aguila will think

I can hear the central heating noise

-----------------+-++-++++++++++


Ok, that's a few observations.

Now you write down a series of these, as they occur.

Once you have done that take a look at the blank column and spend some time rewriting each short sentence, but omitting the "I" reference or "me" or "my" reference in each case but so that the new sentances still makes sense. For example my remark about central heating will still make sense if I rewrite it: "The noise of central heating can be heard".

Is that clear? Do this for all the phrases from the left hand side .

Now compare the two columns. See how that goes and let me know any observations?

All best

Jon

[Aguila]

Hi Jon

well, overall the right side of the page feels strangely distant, detached. The "I" has disappeared - but things still happen.

Not sure if they are relevant, but some details I observed:
The was some liking involved: "I like..." - which could turn into "...is liked". Liking feels so personal and related to an "I" (myself or another person's) that it feels wrong to use it in a passive voice.
Some of the sentences didn't contain an obvious "I" but implied it because they contained a judgment like "Interesting artifact!" or "It is warm and cozy". Probably they could be preceded by "I think that..." which would get transformed into "The is the thought that...". Or "... is perceived as...". Which seems ok.
"My friend P. painted that picture." felt rather awkward transformed into "Her friend painted that picture." I think it is for the same reason that the passive liking seemd wrong. Friendship seems to require an "I". Though I am not sure.

Funny thoughts.

All the best
Aguila

[JonathanR]

Hi Aguila

Thanks for trying the exercise. Forgive me if I don't have much to ask about how it went. The value of these investigations is in trying them to see if they may be useful, so here is another one:

Place a hand palm down on a tabletop. (it helps to sit comfortably to try this)

Notice how this feels. Close your eyes and notice the sensation where 'palm' meets 'table'.

In this sensation right now where does 'hand' end and 'table' begin? Is there any kind of separation here (other than the assumption or thought of it ?)

Without labels, with eyes closed, is there 'a hand'?

Where do 'you' start of finish in this experience ?


Love

Jon