What the heck am I

[AwayKen127]

These are great answers, Mark.

Without thought or a story, I don't know what the hell any of this is. I mean really, even the thoughts "colors" or "sensations" are also concepts. I have no idea what these things are.

To "know what these things are" would be to explain them in terms of something more fundamental. Is there anything more fundamental than colors or sensations? Who wants to know "what these things are" and for what purpose?

[RoloTomassi]

Thank you Jeff.

Is there anything more fundamental than colors or sensations?

In my direct experience, without using more thoughts or concepts, I cannot find anything more fundamental than what shows up in the sense gates, including colors and sensations.

Who wants to know "what these things are" and for what purpose?

I would say I am the "Who" that wants to know, but I cannot find or locate this "Who" or "I" anywhere. I also have no idea what the actual purpose would be. Any attempt to explain seems like it would never end or come to any conclusion anyways. I feel completely lost. Which I guess kind of makes sense if I am not locatable anyways LOL

[AwayKen127]

In my direct experience, without using more thoughts or concepts, I cannot find anything more fundamental than what shows up in the sense gates, including colors and sensations.

Very good. Just to make sure I understand your exact meaning, tell me: Is there "something" that cannot, even in principle, be thought about? LOOK (don't think about it).

I would say I am the "Who" that wants to know, but I cannot find or locate this "Who" or "I" anywhere. I also have no idea what the actual purpose would be. Any attempt to explain seems like it would never end or come to any conclusion anyways. I feel completely lost. Which I guess kind of makes sense if I am not locatable anyways LOL

"Feeling completely lost" is music to my ears. How does that make you feel? Free? Afraid?

[RoloTomassi]

Is there "something" that cannot, even in principle, be thought about? LOOK (don't think about it).

Without thinking, I find nothing. It's like to be a "something" requires the thought. Just looking I find nothing but what the senses present in its raw form. There seems to be "presence", a "here-ness" or "aliveness". I'm not sure why this simple question seems difficult. I cannot find a "something"

How does that make you feel? Free? Afraid?

A total sense of confusion. Periods of intense feelings of fear in the body. DESPAIR would probably be the best to describe. Fearful thoughts of death. It feels like death at times honestly. It comes in waves these days. The difference lately is that as horrible and scary as it feels, there is a sense that this is what needs to happen and almost a faint desire for it. I don't know how to put it into words. It feels like something is being destroyed and obliterated and it's welcomed in a sense. Like a feeling of "lets get this over with" LOL I don't know anymore.

[AwayKen127]

I feel like you're on the edge of the cliff, Mark. Surrender is what is needed now. You can't make it happen, but you can be willing to be in the crucible. "Talk" to me.

[RoloTomassi]

I feel like you're on the edge of the cliff, Mark. Surrender is what is needed now. You can't make it happen, but you can be willing to be in the crucible. "Talk" to me.

I am not even sure what to say. I have felt like on the edge of something for the last couple months. The energy to keep seeking something just started dying down and that left a void. Looking back, that may have been sort of the last identity I have to latch on to and it's leaving me just dangling. It also feels strangely like I am looking for permission for something, even though I don't know what that is. It's crazy because even in the story of "Mark's" life, everything has improved over this journey, in conventional terms. Reactivity way down, addictions died off, better and more harmonious relationships, etc. Yet there is still this intense fear of potential loss. I just see there is literally nothing I can do to control this world, including this mind and body. Totally powerless, and all of life has really been the seeking of more power in a sense. I really don't know what to say Jeff. I feel as though I have to give up the burden of everything. This brings up fears like losing the respect or my wife or family, not being able to protect my son or give him the life he deserves, never being able to find something I truly enjoy to do in life, etc etc. I don't know where I am going with any of this LOL. Sometimes when those intense physical fear sensations come in the body, I am just like "take me now please, if I am to die then so be it, I can no longer fight this, I have no domain here"

[AwayKen127]

Hi Mark,
You really can relax. Life has been taking care of itself without "you" all this time, and will continue to do so. When you learned that Santa Claus is an illusion, did you stop getting gifts? Things happen, reliably, and then we make up a story about how "I" decided this and "I" made that happen. Santa is not delivering gifts, but gifts are delivered.

I'm sorry I didn't think of this earlier: One of the senior guides runs a Zoom call for those who are close to waking up. It starts at 2 pm Eastern time every other Sunday. That's two hours from now. I'll email you with the link.
Jeff

[RoloTomassi]

Hey Jeff-
Thank you so much for pointing me to the Zoom call. I do actually feel very relaxed now =)
This is the first time that I had a group to chat with about these things since starting this journey and I feel a lot more energy, more positive now. I think I really needed that. I will continue to attend the Zoom calls.

You have been amazing and I really appreciate your guidance. I feel I am in the right place.

[AwayKen127]

Hi Mark,
It was a real pleasure to meet you on Zoom and I'm sure the others felt the same. You're always welcome there.

What came to me during the call: Witnessing and in some small way midwifing another human being's awakening has got to be one of the rarest and most exquisite of human experiences.

Namaste,
Jeff

[RoloTomassi]

Jeff-
It was a pleasure to meet you as well. Everyone was really awesome, great energy and I can see everybody seems to support each other. It felt really great to finally be part of something like that. I will attend as frequently as I possibly can.

What came to me during the call: Witnessing and in some small way midwifing another human being's awakening has got to be one of the rarest and most exquisite of human experiences.

That is really great and much appreciated! I felt quite relaxed over all today. Still quite a lot of tension in the body arising for no apparent reason, but not much fighting or judging of it. I keep going back and reading your post saying "You really can relax". Even just reading that gives me a sense of release. I realize I have been pushing so hard for so many months and the body has been sending me signals just to relax and take it easy. So today that is what I did. Felt great overall!

[AwayKen127]

. I realize I have been pushing so hard for so many months and the body has been sending me signals just to relax and take it easy. So today that is what I did.

Glad you got some well-deserved rest. When you're ready, I'd like to continue our inquiry where we left off. I had asked you, "What is it that cannot be thought about, even in principle?" Suppose you said, "I'm looking at a brown coffee mug, and it is seen without thinking". I'd reply, "You're thinking about what you're seeing by dividing it from the rest of experience and labeling it." Then, you might respond by saying, "I see the color brown without thinking about it." I'd reply, "You labeled the color--that's thinking about it." Then you might respond, "Well, I saw the color brown before I labeled it." I'd point out that you're still thinking about it to the extent that you recognized a color by comparing what is seen to memory. This does not require the word "brown" but it is thinking. So, what cannot be thought about? Don't analyze or conclude. SEE what cannot be thought about.

[RoloTomassi]

"What is it that cannot be thought about, even in principle?"

For some reason this question feels like an impenetrable wall. The mind of course wants to analyze and figure it out, but there in an automatic sense that is not possible. So it leaves me with nothing. Just blank. It leaves me with nothing, just this. Which I guess is still a "conclusion" LOL. I probably have to sit with this one.

[AwayKen127]

It leaves me with nothing, just this.It leaves me with nothing, just this.

Yes, just this. We're subtracting all the thought from experience as it presents itself, "just this". But I don't know if you've subtracted EVERYTHING. I suspect not, because when you have subtracted EVERYTHING, you will see something about the nature of thought.

[RoloTomassi]

Yeah, it's just not "clicking" yet. I see under your posts where it says "SEE that it is impossible for a thought to refer to anything other than a thought." I am guessing it has something to do with this LOL. Makes perfect sense, but still just intellectual. I will keep looking until it is seen.

[RoloTomassi]

It dawned on me today that how could a concept like "fear" even be real when there is only perception. How could a color fear another color? Or how could a sensation fear another sensation? Can a thought fear another thought. Or could a thought fear a color or sound? Same for "problems". Are there any problems for colors, sounds, or sensations? They just are what they are, how could they have problems? It's only when you put all these perceptions together, cut it apart, slap labels on them, overlay thought on it, and then get a story that you could ever have concepts like "fear" or "problems". I went into some very deep inquiry like this first thing this morning and it left the rest of the day feeling strange. Much less anxiety, and whenever feelings of fear or anxiety came up, there was this immediate questioning, "what is there here that could be fearful or anxious if there are just colors, sounds and sensations? Where is there this thing called "fear"?"

Its strange because it leaves a very empty feeling. Like even physically, like my head literally feels lighter, almost like I am floating through space. Then I started questioning space, objects and distance. I would look at an object "near" me, than and object "far" from me. Then I would look and remember, there is no central observer that I can find. Distance requires relationality between distinct objects in space. If I can't pinpoint this "observer" anywhere, then it's impossible to say if something is close or farther away. If there is no observer, then there LITERALLY cannot be any distance. That means there are no dimensions to anything that is observed. No actual space it seems. Everything would have to be "zero point", even if it seems otherwise. This type of contemplating and questioning leaves a lot of "spaciousness". Leaves an extremely relaxed feeling in the head and forehead. Very light feeling. Cannot really put into words. Is this something common?