CW

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
Very good!!
Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rali,

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Seeing a tea mug = colors and shape
Feeling the mug = weight and warmth
Smelling = smell
Tasting jasmine tea = taste
Thinking about tea = thought

My morning meditation group on Zoom:
Seeing Zoom squares = shape. Inside each shape is color.
Hearing = sounds that I recognize.

Sitting at the breakfast table with my sweetie:
The thing I call Bill has color and shape.
Hearing = (Familiar) sounds.
Feeling this body shape and weight sitting on a firm surface.

Looking at my iPhone:
Seeing = Colors inside little square shapes; Brightness.
That is all.
Feeling weight in my left-hand = feeling
which is a shape and color

Writing this email:
Seeing = color (white with black squiggles); shape (rectangle)
Touching=firm
Thinking = thoughts (what will I say? What am I experiencing?)

Bill is annoyed.
Hearing his voice = sound
Seeing his body = image, color, shape
Understanding that he wants me to DO something right now = thought + hearing
Thinking “he’s the one who needs to do something right now”= thought
Feeling calm = inner sensation of emotion
Return to hearing, seeing.

Well, this was a lot of fun. = feeling sensation
I wonder if I can remember to do this more often = thought

Sitting at the computer = feeling a firm seat; seeing black squiggles on a white rectangle.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
Thank you for your effort and enthusiasm!
I saw your examples and there seems to be a bit of unclarity about DE and labels related to it. I’m sorry to be persistent about this, but there is a reason behind it. I asked you to follow exactly the format of my example.

Feeling the mug = weight and warmth
Seeing Zoom squares = shape. Inside each shape is color.
Hearing = sounds that I recognize.
Hearing = (Familiar) sounds.
Feeling this body shape and weight sitting on a firm surface.
Seeing = Colors inside little square shapes; Brightness.
Touching=firm
Feeling calm = inner sensation of emotion

These all are not related to DE but thought content.
These would describe DE better:
feeling the mug’s weight and warmth – simply sensation
Hearing sounds that I recognise – simply sound
Feeling this body shape and weight sitting on a firm surface. – simply sensation
Seeing Zoom squares = shape. Inside each shape is color. – simply colour
…
Basically, the only labels that we use to describe DE are: colours/seeing, sound/hearing, taste/tasting, smell/smelling, sensation/sensing, thought/thinking. The rest is a thought content, which we are not interested in.
Please let me know if you struggle with understanding the example or the task.
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

Okay. Let me try this again.

Seeing the computer screen = seeing
Seeing colors and shapes = seeing
Feeling the keyboard = sensation
Thinking about what i am going to write = thought

Hearing tinnitus = hearing

Driving
Seeing the road, trees, snow = seeing
Feeling the steering wheel = sensation
Feeling the bumpy dirt road = sensation
Hearing the difference between dirt road and pavement = hearing

At the dentist's
Feeling the very comfortable chair = sensation
Feeling the scaling = sensation
Hearing the buzz of the scaling = hearing
Hearing the suck of the drain in my mouth = hearing
Feeling tears in my eyes = sensation
Feeling the pinpricks of gum measurements = sensation
Hearing the out loud measurements = hearing plus thought (that's not good)

I do like the pleasant feeling engendered by this focus on the 6 senses.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

Okay. Let me try this again.

Seeing the computer screen = seeing
Seeing colors and shapes = seeing
Feeling the keyboard = sensation
Thinking about what i am going to write = thought

Hearing tinnitus = hearing

Driving
Seeing the road, trees, snow = seeing
Feeling the steering wheel = sensation
Feeling the bumpy dirt road = sensation
Hearing the difference between dirt road and pavement = hearing

At the dentist's
Feeling the very comfortable chair = sensation
Feeling the scaling = sensation
Hearing the buzz of the scaling = hearing
Hearing the suck of the drain in my mouth = hearing
Feeling tears in my eyes = sensation
Feeling the pinpricks of gum measurements = sensation
Hearing the out loud measurements = hearing plus thought (that's not good)

I do like the pleasant feeling engendered by this focus on the 6 senses.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

Okay. Let me try this again.

Seeing the computer screen = seeing
Seeing colors and shapes = seeing
Feeling the keyboard = sensation
Thinking about what i am going to write = thought

Hearing tinnitus = hearing

Driving
Seeing the road, trees, snow = seeing
Feeling the steering wheel = sensation
Feeling the bumpy dirt road = sensation
Hearing the difference between dirt road and pavement = hearing

At the dentist's
Feeling the very comfortable chair = sensation
Feeling the scaling = sensation
Hearing the buzz of the scaling = hearing
Hearing the suck of the drain in my mouth = hearing
Feeling tears in my eyes = sensation
Feeling the pinpricks of gum measurements = sensation
Hearing the out loud measurements = hearing plus thought (that's not good)

I do like the pleasant feeling engendered by this focus on the 6 senses.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

Okay. Let me try this again.

Seeing the computer screen = seeing
Seeing colors and shapes = seeing
Feeling the keyboard = sensation
Thinking about what i am going to write = thought

Hearing tinnitus = hearing

Driving
Seeing the road, trees, snow = seeing
Feeling the steering wheel = sensation
Feeling the bumpy dirt road = sensation
Hearing the difference between dirt road and pavement = hearing

At the dentist's
Feeling the very comfortable chair = sensation
Feeling the scaling = sensation
Hearing the buzz of the scaling = hearing
Hearing the suck of the drain in my mouth = hearing
Feeling tears in my eyes = sensation
Feeling the pinpricks of gum measurements = sensation
Hearing the out loud measurements = hearing plus thought (that's not good)

I do like the pleasant feeling engendered by this focus on the 6 senses.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

Okay. Let me try this again.

Seeing the computer screen = seeing
Seeing colors and shapes = seeing
Feeling the keyboard = sensation
Thinking about what i am going to write = thought

Hearing tinnitus = hearing

Driving
Seeing the road, trees, snow = seeing
Feeling the steering wheel = sensation
Feeling the bumpy dirt road = sensation
Hearing the difference between dirt road and pavement = hearing

At the dentist's
Feeling the very comfortable chair = sensation
Feeling the scaling = sensation
Hearing the buzz of the scaling = hearing
Hearing the suck of the drain in my mouth = hearing
Feeling tears in my eyes = sensation
Feeling the pinpricks of gum measurements = sensation
Hearing the out loud measurements = hearing plus thought (that's not good)

I do like the pleasant feeling engendered by this focus on the 6 senses.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
Very good!
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears. In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is aware of it? Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking? Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed? Watch like a hawk.
Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance? Did you know which will be the second or the fourth? Can you stop them midway? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration. Are they 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is aware of it?

There is no one that recognizes the thought.
There’s a knowing (Knowing?) that co-arises with each sensation, including thoughts. (Language gets tricky here.) That’s how a sensation is known. I call it Awareness.

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

No. Nothing separate that does the thinking.

Where do thoughts appear from?

I do not know. They seem to come out of the blue. I assume they come from habits, but I have not seen this.

Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

randomly

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

No traffic cop.
Thoughts have a life of their own.

Can the flow of thoughts be changed

Yes. If there’s an intention and sufficient mindfulness, I can redirect thoughts to kindness instead of dwelling on resentment. But the resentments tend to resurface.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear.

Could you predict the order of their appearance? Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

No way to predict the next thought.

Can you stop them midway?

Maybe on a month-long retreat, i could catch one, but not today. Not in daily life. My thoughts blurt out, so they’ve disappeared before I can catch them.

How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration.

Are they 100% true?

I would not stake my life on any of my thoughts. Are they true? Not 100%.

On one month-long retreat, I divided thoughts into 2 categories: useful and useless.
My thoughts were 98% useless.

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

The me is in the thinking. The sensation of light, calm, and ease of well-being come with a quiet-ish mind. Don’t know who or what I am.

Thanks Rafi,
Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl

There is no one that recognizes the thought.
There’s a knowing (Knowing?) that co-arises with each sensation, including thoughts. (Language gets tricky here.) That’s how a sensation is known. I call it Awareness.

So, do you SEE two separate things here – knowing/awareness and experience? What does awareness look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses? Can you see a border that defines where the awareness ends and the seeing begins? Where does awareness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border? Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Is awareness a container for thoughts? Are the thinker/awareness, thought, and the process of thinking separate? Can there be awareness without objects? You said that thoughts do not exist without awareness. Now, would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience/teachings!

Can the flow of thoughts be changed

Yes. If there’s an intention and sufficient mindfulness, I can redirect thoughts to kindness instead of dwelling on resentment. But the resentments tend to resurface.

Really? For how long? Is this a DE or a belief/thought? What is an intention in DE?

On one month-long retreat, I divided thoughts into 2 categories: useful and useless.
My thoughts were 98% useless.

Useful or useless to whom? There is still a need of a refence point for usefulness to be determined. Do thoughts have a purpose or they just appear? So, are you the traffic cop saying useful thoughts here , useless there?

The me is in the thinking. The sensation of light, calm, and ease of well-being come with a quiet-ish mind. Don’t know who or what I am.

What is the difference between calm and not calm In DE (without thought content)? What is mind? Not knowing what you are without thinking – is it an absence of a ‘you’ or just not knowing/seeking to find it?
Love
RALI

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

So, do you SEE two separate things here – knowing/awareness and experience?

No, I do not SEE two separate things.

What does awareness look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses?

Awareness is clear, transparent, indescribable. It cannot be seen, touched, heard, smelled, or tasted.

Can you see a border that defines where the awareness ends and the seeing begins?

No border. Awareness permeates everything. But how do I know this?

Where does awareness stop and the thoughts start, is there a visible border?

No borders. No stopping; no starting.

Are there ”solid” thoughts floating around in “awareness”- “arising, appearing and disappearing”?

No solid thoughts. Nothing floating in “awareness.”
Thoughts come and go; arise, appear, and disappear.

Is awareness a container for thoughts?

Awareness is not a container for anything.

Are the thinker/awareness, thought, and the process of thinking separate?

Is there a thinker?
Thoughts arise and pass away

Can there be awareness without objects? You said that thoughts do not exist without awareness. Now, would awareness of the thoughts exist without the thoughts?

No awareness without an object.

Really? For how long? Is this a DE or a belief/thought? What is an intention in DE?

Hmmm. Sounds like intention is a belief / concept/ idea. In Direct Enquiry, no intention.

Useful or useless to whom? There is still a need of a refence point for usefulness to be determined. Do thoughts have a purpose or they just appear? So, are you the traffic cop saying useful thoughts here , useless there?

Oooh. Caught again. Thoughts have no purpose; they just appear.
Useful / useless are ideas.

What is the difference between calm and not calm In DE (without thought content)? What is mind? Not knowing what you are without thinking – is it an absence of a ‘you’ or just not knowing/seeking to find it?

In DE, no difference between calm and not calm. More ideas.
What is mind? The thinking.
Not knowing what I am without thinking feels like an absence of ‘me.’

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
I thought we agreed to leave teachings, beliefs, and other knowledge behind for the duration of the inquiry. Please stick only to DE of the senses – LOOKING!!

What does awareness look like? Does it speak etc – how can you describe it using the five senses?

Awareness is clear, transparent, indescribable. It cannot be seen, touched, heard, smelled, or tasted.

So how is it observed then with the senses? Everything that cannot be described with the senses is a belief, right? If it's not coming from the senses then it's thought content, right?

Can you see a border that defines where the awareness ends and the seeing begins?

No border. Awareness permeates everything. But how do I know this?

Again, how is this observed? You said that there are not two things, but all your other “descriptions” point to two things – an object (thoughts) and a subject (awareness, permeating them). That is the problem with thoughts/language – they create a doer out of thin air. They also try to carefully describe and categorise everything in separate objects. But LOOK if awareness cannot be separated from its objects then is there such a ‘thing’ as awareness and such a ‘thing’ as thoughts/colours/sounds, etc.?
You might enjoy this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=15&t=8s

Are the thinker/awareness, thought, and the process of thinking separate?

Is there a thinker?
Thoughts arise and pass away

So, is there a thing then (i.e., a thought) or just thinking (action, verb)?
Love
Rali

[CherylVT]

Dear Rafi,

The video is a lot of fun, and points out some of my own hiccups with various Awareness teachers.
I agree, Ocean.

When I write, I really believe I am speaking from experience, not from beliefs, so I have the feeling I’m not expressing myself (ha!) clearly.

So how is it [awareness] observed then with the senses?

The senses do their job of receiving / registering.

Everything that cannot be described with the senses is a belief, right? If it's not coming from the senses then it's thought content, right?

I’m not in the habit of saying Awareness sees, hears, feels, smells, tastes, but I suppose I could. Awareness knows all, so how could it know all except by seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting.

Again, how is this observed?

Watching/seeing awareness is like looking out of the edge of my eyes at the Pleiades—hard to see straight on. Somehow better with unfocused eyes.
Awareness knows every so-called thing.

But LOOK if awareness cannot be separated from its objects then is there such a ‘thing’ as awareness and such a ‘thing’ as thoughts/colours/sounds, etc.?

Right. Awareness cannot be separated from its objects.
There is no thing-ness to thoughts, colors, sounds, etc.

So, is there a thing then (i.e., a thought) or just thinking (action, verb)?

No thoughts, just thinking.

Thanks Rafi,

Cheryl

[poppyseed]

Hi Cheryl
I understand where you are coming from (Advaita’s non-dualism, which we left behind), but there is still a lot of belief in your answers – not observed but assumed to be the truth.

So how is it [awareness] observed then with the senses?

The senses do their job of receiving / registering.

First, I think you misunderstood the question. I was asking of how you can describe awareness through the senses. You said earlier that “Awareness is clear, transparent, indescribable. It cannot be seen, touched, heard, smelled, or tasted.” That would mean that it can’t be observed through the senses, which would make it a belief (assumption). Can you see that? If something can not be described in DE through the senses, it would make it a thought content.
Second, do senses exist physically as receivers/detectors? How is that observed? Are there eyes, ears, mouth…?
Let me ask again, is there a seer who sees colour or just seeing?
Also, is there a clear boundary between seeing, hearing, tasting, etc? Or just thought describes them as separate. Can you separate the hearing from the seeing? Even with your eyes closed you still see colour. Are there separate senses or just experiencing?

I’m not in the habit of saying Awareness sees, hears, feels, smells, tastes, but I suppose I could. Awareness knows all, so how could it know all except by seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, tasting.

That whole statement makes it sound like that there is an entity called “awareness” that does things, knows things, sees, hears, etc – a bit like an ‘I’. So, are you awareness/the witness then? Is there any kind of entity, agency, or energy?
Focus on the feeling of am-ness/being, aliveness.
Can you tell if there is a being or just being?
Is life happening to a being or as being?
Please don’t answer automatically! Allow the questions to work their magic :)

Watching/seeing awareness is like looking out of the edge of my eyes at the Pleiades—hard to see straight on. Somehow better with unfocused eyes.
Awareness knows every so-called thing.

Could there be an imagination (mental images) involved here? Seeing, hearing come straight on, no need to focus on it – it all flows effortlessly. Effort exists only in thoughts. There is a knowing of experience but that knowing cannot be isolated because it actually IS that experience (seeing, hearing etc) – it’s all included, inseparable. Even with eyes closed there is still seeing, sensations, sound – aliveness. Only thought comes and creates separate things trying to describe the “details” and creating objects and subjects in the process. Like the knowing_of_seeing (awareness) which sees the colours – a noun (subject), verb (action) and another noun (object) – it looks more like language than reality, don’t you think? Reality is very simple – it’s just THIS, which includes all – seeing_hearing_tasting_sensing_smelling_thinking_knowing of it. And it’s all happening RIGHT NOW. So, is the knowing of it an agency or an attribute?
Love
Rali