Liberation from self

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

So, I lay down and started looking at the thoughts that were showing up and what came up was that the experience of "me" is entirely constructed from thoughts. No thoughts, no me.

Yes, who or what is looking at the thoughts ?

When I saw the other day that I had no control over the thoughts I realized that the "me" that was constructed by thoughts was something I had no role in constructing, because I had no control over the thoughts that created the "me".

Yes, great that it is seen.

So, at this point, I am still believing in a "me", but seeing that its only made up of thoughts. It feels like that's as far as I can go right now.

Yes, “me” is a thought construct. Is it known in direct experience ? (seen, heard, smelt, tasted or felt)

It feels like I may fall off a cliff if I acknowledge that thoughts are not real, therefore I am not real. I know this is not exactly responding to the above statements, but that is where I am right now.

Thoughts are here but their content is not real. There is no you which may fall off a cliff. How can a thought fall off a cliff ?

Also, I'm not sure about the assumption that if I see that there is no self, that there is no separation. I can't quite make that leap at this moment from no self to no separation.

Do it don’t think about it.

I keep telling myself that nothing has really changed, that this has always been the situation, I'm just seeing it for what it is, that "I" have been taken care of by life. It feels like I need to take this a little slowly, if that is ok.

I have not said that life is taking care of “I”. I said that life is taking care of itself. There is a body and life is taking care of this body. There is knowing of the body and all appearances. There is knowing of thoughts. There is no need for an I, for a you, do you see that ?

Just another thought that came to me tonight. That the thought of a self is a useful tool for communicating and getting along with other people, but its just that - a tool. But somehow almost everyone believes it is who they are and get completely caught up in the story of a self. Its like an actor believing he's the character he is playing. That's a comforting thought at this point. Please let me know your thoughts.

You are doing a good job here. You have seen that a « me » is a communication tool, a concept, OK ? Then, for whom “just another thought came tonight” ? Is there someone there? Or is there just knowing of a thought arising from nowhere?

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thank you for helping me with these questions.

Yes, who or what is looking at the thoughts ?

It seems that awareness is looking at the thoughts. That which is aware of thoughts. I don't actually know what "that" is.

Yes, “me” is a thought construct. Is it known in direct experience ? (seen, heard, smelt, tasted or felt)

"Me" is not seen, heard, smelt or tasted, but when a thought of "me" comes up, like when the question is posed :"is there a me" - there is a feeling around my heart that feels like "me". But it is just a felt sensation that is not "me", its just a sensation. There is a feeling of love connected to this sensation of "me".

Thoughts are here but their content is not real. There is no you which may fall off a cliff. How can a thought fall off a cliff ?

Good point. A thought can't do anything, so if "I" am a thought, "I" can't do anything. The thought that "I might fall off a cliff" is also just a thought.

Do it don’t think about it.

Trying, not succeeding.

I have not said that life is taking care of “I”. I said that life is taking care of itself. There is a body and life is taking care of this body. There is knowing of the body and all appearances. There is knowing of thoughts. There is no need for an I, for a you, do you see that ?

It's like cutting the middleman out of a transaction. There is so much thought and belief that has constructed the middleman (self).

You have seen that a « me » is a communication tool, a concept, OK ? Then, for whom “just another thought came tonight” ? Is there someone there? Or is there just knowing of a thought arising from nowhere?

I can see that a thought just came and was known. And then more thoughts that bring up the self and tie the thoughts to the self. Thought upon thought upon thought creating the illusion of a self. Returning to the first question above - who or what is looking at the thoughts? Awareness is looking at the thoughts, but then a thought comes along and labels the awareness as "me".

Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Good observations.

Good point. A thought can't do anything, so if "I" am a thought,

"I" is a thought, yes but it cannot be said "I" am a thought : there is identification here, do you see the difference?

"I" can't do anything. The thought that "I might fall off a cliff" is also just a thought.

Yes

Awareness is looking at the thoughts, but then a thought comes along and labels the awareness as "me".

Is there an action of looking or there is just seeing thoughts happening naturally?
There is knowing of thoughts, awareness = being aware. Does this knowing, this being aware, this presence change with the labels put on it ? The label could be me, you, awareness or whatever.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

"I" is a thought, yes but it cannot be said "I" am a thought : there is identification here, do you see the difference?

Yes, I see the difference. Saying "I" am a thought is claiming ownership of the "I".

Is there an action of looking or there is just seeing thoughts happening naturally?
There is knowing of thoughts, awareness = being aware. Does this knowing, this being aware, this presence change with the labels put on it ? The label could be me, you, awareness or whatever.

There is just seeing thoughts happening naturally, there is no looking. Thoughts just arise. No, the presence does not change depending on the labels that are put on it. It's not changeable and the labels don't do anything, they are just labels.
I wanted to tell you what happened today and ask if you have any suggestions. When I woke up in the morning there was anxiety as there usually is. I focused on the sensation of the anxiety in my body very intently and I kept telling myself that it was ok for the anxiety to be there and that I wasn't responsible or to blame for the anxiety. I was able to depersonalize it to some extent. I'm using the word "I" just to make it easy to describe what was going on. Although the sensations were fairly intense, there was very little suffering around the anxiety. So that was very encouraging. Later on in the day a thought+feeling of self hatred (that's too strong a word, more like self-rejection) came up strongly. I lay down and felt into it as I had with the anxiety earlier in the day, but was not able to accept it enough to avoid the feeling of suffering around it. It's a very old, core pattern for me. I tried asking the sensation - who or what are you hating/rejecting? but it didn't seem appropriate to do inquiry with this sensation. I think it began when I was preverbal so I don't even know if it would understand an inquiry. I do feel like I made some progress in that I was able to focus on the sensations and stay with them for about an hour and tried to accept them to the best of my ability. I read the chapter in Liberation Unleashed on Deep Looking and that was closer to the approach that I was taking. If you have any suggestions I would greatly appreciate them.
Thank you so much for your time and help.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, yes, you are doing a great job with sensations. Just let them come, welcome them for what they are, sensations, don't worry about labels (fear, anxiety, joy, pain, pleasure, ...) and let them go. The sun shines on everything, good or bad, it does not like or dislike.
We are speaking about sensations, I invite you to do this investigation about the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Here are my observations on your questions.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

With the eyes closed it's not possible to know how tall the body is. There is nothing to compare or measure against.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No, I can't determine a weight for the body or a volume. When I feel closely, all that can be felt is sensation, no weight or volume. I can feel the pressure of my legs and bottom against the couch, but that is just a sensation of pressure.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Again, paying very close attention, all that is experienced is sensation, no shape or form.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

I could feel the sensation of the clothing on the body, but there is not an experience of a boundary, just the sensation.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No, only the sensation where the body and the chair meet. No actual experience of a boundary.

Is there an inside or an outside?

I could not find one. What I experienced were sensations that corresponded to where the body was and no sensations aside from that - no sensations beyond a certain space.

If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? I didn't find an inside.

If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I didn't find an outside - just a space where I did not experience sensations.
This all occurred with my eyes closed, with eyes open it's too hard to discount the visual information about the existence of the body.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

In my experience, it refers to a whole lot of different kinds of sensation - energy pulsating and tingling, pressure, coolness.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

What I wrote above- a variety of sensations. That's it.
Thank you very much for your help.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

You have done good observations.

Are you seeing or seeing is happening?
Are you hearing or hearing is happening ?
Are you knowing thoughts or knowing thoughts is happening?
Are you deciding to do things or decision is happening ?

Ponder on each question and elaborate on your answers.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Are you seeing or seeing is happening?

It seems that seeing is just happening. I used to think that I was seeing, but now as I see this question the seeing is just happening. When I ask the question "Is there someone seeing" I get a little confused. I'm looking for the someone and I think its there, but in actuality, in the experience of the seeing there doesn't seem to be anyone.

Are you hearing or hearing is happening ?

Its the same situation with hearing. Hearing is happening, effortlessly. When I ask "Am I hearing?" where is the I? What is the I? Its not here in the moment of the hearing. Again, a sense of confusion and not knowing.

Are you knowing thoughts or knowing thoughts is happening?

I just don't know. This question puts me into a state of great confusion. I don't know what the answer is. It all hinges on what is the "I"? Thoughts are being known but is someone (I) knowing them? I'm not clear about this.

Are you deciding to do things or decision is happening ?

This is really just an extension of the question above, because decisions are just thoughts. So I'm not clear on the answer to this. Would it be possible to work on these for another day? They are really important questions.
I wanted to tell you about what happened today. A situation came up where there was quite a bit of fear felt and I had the realization that I have spent my life trying to keep my "self" safe and happy and spending a tremendous amount of energy and thought on this "self". What really felt like progress was seeing how much of my mind has been focused on self protection and self fulfillment. If I can see that this "self" doesn't exist that would free up so much energy and fear.
Thank you, and I will continue to try to explore the above questions tomorrow if you will allow it.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

It seems that seeing is just happening. I used to think that I was seeing, but now as I see this question the seeing is just happening. When I ask the question "Is there someone seeing" I get a little confused.

What is this I which gets confused?

I'm looking for the someone and I think its there, but in actuality, in the experience of the seeing there doesn't seem to be anyone.

Do you agree that “the someone” is only in thoughts?

I just don't know. This question puts me into a state of great confusion. I don't know what the answer is. It all hinges on what is the "I"? Thoughts are being known but is someone (I) knowing them? I'm not clear about this.

Yes, what is this I ?
The confusion is due to a belief which is : a verb needs a subject. We don’t accept that things are done by no one, no subject, no doer, no actor. Look at what is going on during a day and see if there is a doer, a knower, a hearer, a seer, a taster, a smeller, a feeler, …

This is really just an extension of the question above, because decisions are just thoughts. So I'm not clear on the answer to this. Would it be possible to work on these for another day? They are really important questions.

Yes, decisions are thoughts arising. Is there a thinker of thoughts?

I wanted to tell you about what happened today. A situation came up where there was quite a bit of fear felt and I had the realization that I have spent my life trying to keep my "self" safe and happy and spending a tremendous amount of energy and thought on this "self". What really felt like progress was seeing how much of my mind has been focused on self protection and self fulfillment. If I can see that this "self" doesn't exist that would free up so much energy and fear.

Yes.

Thank you, and I will continue to try to explore the above questions tomorrow if you will allow it

You are much welcome.

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

What is this I which gets confused?

The "I" that gets confused is thoughts. Thoughts about an "I". Thoughts that had believed there was an "I" that was seeing. Thoughts have created an "I" who is seeing. When "I" look to see if someone is seeing, there is a blank. The "I" isn't found. And then thoughts think - but that's not possible, because if there isn't an "I", then how can this being exist? The belief in someone who is managing all this seeing, hearing, thinking, decided is tied up with assuming someone is in control and is responding to perceptions and events. When that thought that there is no one in charge arises, that produces fear thoughts. So the belief in the "I" in control is an attempt to reduce fear thoughts. But if it is based on a false belief, then there is no need to have fearful thoughts, because everything is ok without the "I" in control, because it's never been real, never existed, and this entity - mind, body without a self, has survived and been ok up to now.

Do you agree that “the someone” is only in thoughts?

Yes, it becomes more and more clear that "the someone" is only in thoughts.

Yes, what is this I ?
The confusion is due to a belief which is : a verb needs a subject. We don’t accept that things are done by no one, no subject, no doer, no actor. Look at what is going on during a day and see if there is a doer, a knower, a hearer, a seer, a taster, a smeller, a feeler, …

This "I" is a thought, an assumption, a very strong belief. It doesn't seem possible that everything is just being done, with no doer. "I" need to really pay attention to whether there is a doer, etc. My mind seems to shy away from looking at this. It doesn't want to lose the illusion of control and realize its not in charge. But also, if this is true, then something has been taking care of this being all along and that feels comforting.

Yes, decisions are thoughts arising. Is there a thinker of thoughts?

No, there are only thoughts arising. There is no control over the thoughts, so there is no thinker. It seems there are very strong patterns of thought creating a thinker that are very resistant to change.
Thank you so much, Warissem. These questions are so helpful and revealing.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Good observations, there are still some comments :

This "I" is a thought, an assumption, a very strong belief.

Is it seen for sure ?

It doesn't seem possible that everything is just being done, with no doer.

It is the core of the illusion, a millenary conditionning which was not questioned yet. It is a belief which sustains the belief on the subject, on me, the self, ...

"I" need to really pay attention to whether there is a doer, etc. My mind seems to shy away from looking at this. It doesn't want to lose the illusion of control and realize its not in charge.

There are exercises to help you see through this belief.

But also, if this is true, then something has been taking care of this being all along and that feels comforting.

Life is taking care of itself, have you heard about the survival instinct? Just look at the animals, the plants, the trees, ...

This is an exercise about choice and control :

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Is it seen for sure ?

It is seen, but I have to go through a string of thoughts to get there. I look for the "I", I don't find it and realize it is a thought and I remember the thought experiment where I saw clearly that I had no control over thoughts.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?

In direct experience, the movement isn't controlled, it just happens.

Does a thought control it?

It does not seem like a thought controls it. There may be a thought to flip the hand, but the thought does not seem to be what makes the hand flip. I don't know what makes the hand move.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, I can't find a controller. What happens is there's a thought to investigate the action of flipping the hand over. Then the hand flips over, a lot of the time without an active thought to move the hand, sometimes with an active thought to move the hand. But the thought is not what is making the hand move. I don't know what is making that happen.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

As I noticed above, there may be a thought to move the hand, but the thought does not seem to be what causes the hand to move. Sometimes it seems as if the hand moves and the thought to move the hand comes after the action and I don't know why the hand moved when it did or what motivated the hand to move.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I was holding the paper with your questions on it in my right hand, so the only free hand was the left hand so that was the hand that did the flipping.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, I can't. There are thoughts about doing the experiment and investigating what happens when the hand is flipping, the hand starts flipping, sometimes right after the thought to move the hand, sometimes without a direct thought about the hand flipping. It was very interesting to see that the thought about moving the hand didn't seem to be directly related to the action of the hand. Whatever was causing the movement was not the thought, it was something else that was influenced by the thought but did not seem to have a direct correlation.
Thank you again for a very interesting and perplexing exercise.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

You have done good observations, these are some comments :

It is seen, but I have to go through a string of thoughts to get there. I look for the "I", I don't find it and realize it is a thought and I remember the thought experiment where I saw clearly that I had no control over thoughts.

Seeing is happening right now. After “I” is seen as a thought, can it be otherwise ? if it is so describe it for me.

It does not seem like a thought controls it. There may be a thought to flip the hand, but the thought does not seem to be what makes the hand flip. I don't know what makes the hand move.

Not knowing is a good place to be.

Whatever was causing the movement was not the thought, it was something else that was influenced by the thought but did not seem to have a direct correlation.

have you seen a thought influencing something ?
Or “it was something else that was influenced by the thought” is just a thought ?
Do you see the subtlety of thoughts?

What is coming up when you read this :
There is no you, no separate self, no Francesca managing life, there never was, it will never be.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Seeing is happening right now. After “I” is seen as a thought, can it be otherwise ? if it is so describe it for me.

No, "I" can't be other than a thought. The difficulty is the strong tendency to operate from thought. It is so ingrained and habitual to imagine existing in thought so automatically and so much of the time.

have you seen a thought influencing something ?
Or “it was something else that was influenced by the thought” is just a thought ?
Do you see the subtlety of thoughts?

A thought is just a thought. It can't influence something. It seems that a thought can cause another thought that seems linked to the previous thought. I do see that “it was something else that was influenced by the thought” is just a thought . And I do see the incredible subtlety of thoughts. They are very tricky and convincing and a lot of the time they are not even in consciousness.

What is coming up when you read this :
There is no you, no separate self, no Francesca managing life, there never was, it will never be.

The first thing that comes up is relief. And a great desire to be able to really know it, absolutely, with no doubt whatsoever. But there is also some trepidation as to what it would actually be like to live with this understanding. I've been trying to imagine what it would be like. I was swimming this afternoon and asking if there was a Cesca
(my nickname) that was swimming and there didn't seem to be one. There was a body, swimming, there was the water, there was seeing and hearing and feeling the body and the water, there were thoughts and that was all. So I guess that's what it is like. I was thinking that what seems to solidify the existence of a self is emotions and identifying with them. But a lot of the time the emotions I experience aren't related to what is happening at the moment, although there is identification with them. I'm really working on not identifying with the emotions. Would love your ideas on this.
I'm so grateful for your time and help, what you do is so incredibly generous.
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

I like your answers. There is an exercise for you, I wish it will help.

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Best for you

Warissem