I'm done with suffering and the human experience

[Matt]

Good, looking forward to hearing how it goes. Seems you've been around the block, so you probably know this quote:

In the seen
There is only the seen,

In the heard
there is only the heard,

In the sensed
There is only the sensed,

In the cognized
There is only the cognized.

This is how you should practice.


—Bahiya Sutta

[2plus2is5]

Lovely quote thank you.

1. I can see there is no me present outside of thoughts becusee there is just no dialog going on there for there to be a me !

2. I cannot find a thinker of thoughts, I only see thinking and then sometimes a noticing of thinking

3. "These clothes are mine " . There was a sense of ownership over this body and material things. Of course that is thought content but jaw and chest sensations came with it

Thats what I have got so far

Best wishes

[Matt]

Nice work! Question on your answers:

1. ...there is just no dialog going on there for there to be a me !

• Does that imply that where there IS mental dialogue there might be a thinker-self present?

2. I cannot find a thinker of thoughts...

This sounds like it's going well.

...I only see thinking and then sometimes a noticing of thinking

Ah, now it seems it would help to also look for one who is aware of thoughts (not a 'thinker' per se, but an observer of thoughts).
• Can you find, in actual experience, an entity that is seeing or witnessing thoughts?

3. "These clothes are mine " . There was a sense of ownership over this body and material things. Of course that is thought content but jaw and chest sensations came with it

Good sign that there was feedback in the jaw and chest. Often, these are signs of self-preservation instincts. It would be helpful to go back to this and just allow the sensations to come up, welcome them and thank them for their help. Just be gentle; we're in no rush.
• What does "This body is mine," really refer to?

So, there are three points to investigate and answer.

If #3 gets a little heavy and you need to back off for a little bit, here is an enjoyable way to keep looking. I recommend downloading it to mp3 and listening to it on repeat for an hour as a 'seated meditation', and of course doing the looking as he speaks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FMSggSSJOU
If you need a free online converter, just search for "download youtube to mp3"...
I'll be back in about 30 hours.
Be well

[2plus2is5]

Thank you. I enjoyed your message very much

I apologise again for lack of quote function. I'm abroad on purely using the phone.

Does that imply that where there IS mental dialogue there might be a thinker-self present?
Certainly no thinker self! Just thought content

Ah, now it seems it would help to also look for one who is aware of thoughts (not a 'thinker' per se, but an observer of thoughts).
• Can you find, in actual experience, an entity that is seeing or witnessing thoughts
No I cannot see an entity. There is attention on things , and sometimes the attention its on thoughts arising. Actually , it seems that
alot of time in the last couple of days is spent completely watching the whole experience and watching reactions (thoughts and sensations ) . No one choosing to do that

What does "This body is mine," really refer to?
It is thought content only ! A belief / thought
A thought claiming ownership of sensations and colours and images. Just thought content! Even a thought claiming ownership of clothes !

Lovely I will definitely loop that mp3! I will sort that out soon

Take care !

[2plus2is5]

Just to let you know that I keep going over and over your posts. They are really testing

[2plus2is5]

Haha there is just nowhere to go here regarding this....

I'm saying that the me exists (which it obviously doesn't cus there never was one) only when mental dialog is happening. But it cannot becuaee it is just thought content that says so. But Thiught content cannot make something exist ! So there is a massive flaw in the thought content. Its believing in something that isn't real. Again, like a kid who believes in santa. It cannot exist - it is a thought creation a fantasy.

Thats what I've got so far !

But yes I am noticing sensations for example when I speak to speople and I want to be right and then wrong. Or am I making food for something or playing piano for someone and I want to be praised. I notice the sensations when this happens. Things like "I want to be right " or "we are wasting time" or "we are going to be late" lots of sensations. I'm observing them all and seeing how they work

But I really love this paradox. Without thoughts there is no Andrew. With thoughts there still is no Andrew, but only thoughts saying there is , which is clearly false

[Matt]

...Certainly no thinker self! Just thought content

...I cannot see an entity. There is attention on things , and sometimes the attention its on thoughts arising. Actually , it seems that alot of time in the last couple of days is spent completely watching the whole experience and watching reactions (thoughts and sensations ) . No one choosing to do that

...What does "This body is mine," really refer to?
It is thought content only ! A belief / thought
A thought claiming ownership of sensations and colours and images. Just thought content! Even a thought claiming ownership of clothes !

This is all very good.
How does it feel to see that there is no thinker-self, no entity, just content?

[Matt]

But yes I am noticing sensations for example when I speak to speople and I want to be right and then wrong. Or am I making food for something or playing piano for someone and I want to be praised. I notice the sensations when this happens. Things like "I want to be right " or "we are wasting time" or "we are going to be late" lots of sensations. I'm observing them all and seeing how they work

Yes, and how does it feel to see that all these "reactions" are just clusters, so-to-speak, of sensations, mental images, narrative thoughts?

Any fear, resistance, doubt coming up? Can you detect a sense of freedom or relief, emptiness-full-of-content, etc.?

[2plus2is5]

No its not made a difference i don't knkw if the alcohol over Christmas is bringing my mood down.

The logic used :- there is no entity when thoughts are absent and no entity when thoughts are happening. Seeing that with logic but its not particularly felt. Its made no difference.

Good to see them as reactions and clusters etc, but still i don't feel very good in the body. Like a depression. I'm sure though the alcohol at Christmas is affecting me.

How does it feel to see there is no thinker self ?
It still does not feel like freedom. Still a person here who has good and bad, interesting and or not interesting experiences, susceptible to mood and whats happening . Holding onto anger and personal separate self story . Thoughts still feel real

[Matt]

i don't knkw if the alcohol over Christmas is bringing my mood down.

No problem. The main thing we're looking for is not a particular mood or feeling, but whether the mood or feeling that is appearing right now belongs to a 'you' or is felt by a 'you'.
•1 Is the current mood or feeling yours? If so, how?

i don't feel very good in the body.

No problem, again. Let's just look with direct experience:
•2 Where is the feeler? Can one really be found? If so, what shape is it, what color, how heavy?

Still a person here who has good and bad...experiences, susceptible to mood and whats happening

•3 What is the direct experience when you look at that "person here"? Is it accurate to describe that as 'a person'?

(and who is) Holding onto anger and personal separate self story

•4 Where is the "holder on", the one who is holding onto anger and stories? Is there a 'holder' positioned maybe right behind the story, where it can hold on to its handles and keep it from going anywhere? What is found when you look directly?

•5 What if feelings and stories and thoughts are all just like pictures appearing in the clouds in the sky? Does it mean there's something wrong with the cloud if it seems to have an angry face?

[2plus2is5]

I think my mind is tricking me. Although there is no me. The mi is saying "you don't need to look because you know you won't find anything "

[2plus2is5]

1. Its not my mood. But its still here

2. No feeler . Sensstions and thoughts

3. Person. Fingers , hands , legs, chest . When looking in the mirror I see a figure labelled person. Movements.

4. There is something holding the jaw tight . No entity found. Just a jaw.

5. I like that a lot. To not judge the clouds

Mood is a bit lighter now having worked through these questions . But I know we are not looking got moods. But I do crave lightness and value it highly . Who is the one that craves? Its a thought

[Matt]

Thanks for your answers!

The mi(nd) is saying "you don't need to look because you know you won't find anything "

This could be a good sign: perhaps the last defenses of the mind, arguing for stopping looking.
So, let's embrace and thank the mind for coming to protect the life-form! It has done a great job. We're not trying to destroy Andrew or the ability to stay safe. Generally, the life form actually comes alive in a new way when this ancient vigilance relaxes. We can go as slow as it takes, and we don't want to stimulate undue discomfort or fear.

• Is there a 'you' that could be tricked by thoughts?
• In direct experience, is there a you that dies or could die?

[2plus2is5]

Brilliant questions.
1. No me to be tricked by thoughts! I enjoyed this one!
2. No one in DE to die!

Its funny though, some things remain. Like being judged on my driving skills. Cooking. Doing mistakes . Trying to do well but someone picking a flaw in it . Someone else gets more attention than me. Or someone else is having a better time or receiving more.

[Matt]

Its funny though, some things remain. Like being judged on my driving skills. Cooking. Doing mistakes . Trying to do well but someone picking a flaw in it . Someone else gets more attention than me. Or someone else is having a better time or receiving more.

Yeah, 'funny' — in that these are Divine gifts and you're not opening them yet!
A treasure of Empty Fullness in each one, if you unwrap it!

1. Find a you that's judged or criticized?

2. Find a you that makes mistakes or has flaws?

3. Find a you that gets attention or not?

4. Find a you that has a good time?

5. Find a you that receives or not?

Could I let you open your gifts for a while? You might have dozens or hundreds per day! Share your list with me. Whenever it seems like there's a major appearance of a separate individual like the above, write it down and look and see if it's really there...

Enjoy!