Hesitancy and control rule me

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

Of course take your time. Find the questions that challenge you the most and stay with them (not necessarily all of them). The questions are pointers to sticky "areas".

So neither the term “object” or the actual object exist in DE... The object is in my thoughts.

Good! So, if you really saw that then why is the other question a problem?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for understanding :) To be honest, I was doubting myself that I couldn't answer them. I felt blocked like I was grasping at something but didn't know what. I tried again today and just went with it!

Is there anything to be smelled, touched, heard, etc outside of the senses without thought content?
Or is just smell-ING (verb) labelled “object’s SMELL” (describing particular smell), sensing labelled “object’s FEEL” (describing particular sensation), etc. and assumption (thought content) that that an object with such characteristics exists in the first place?

Yes, there are things to be smelled, touched and heard outside of the senses without thought content, but we won’t be able to attach a label to them or smell, touch, hear them. They are just there, existing.

Is the smell separate from the object?

Yes

Is the smell separate from smelling?

Yes

How is the smelling of no smell experienced?

the smell of no smell cannot be experienced because there needs to be a thought to label it as “no smell”. But then, maybe the only way for no smell to be experienced is if we block our nose to not experience the smell in the first place.

Is there a line where the smelling ends and the smell begins, and even further a second line demarcating where the object begins?

The smelling ends and the smell begins when we recognise the smell and attach it to a label. There would be a second line is there when we begin to recognise the object.

Where are these lines? Where is the smelling starting?

The lines are in me. The smelling is starting from me.

Is there a smell-er there on the other side of the object? Or is it just language where an object and subject exist in the description of what is happening (action)? When you say: "The tree is growing leaves" who is doing the growing?

So in this example, the tree is doing the growing, so there would be a smell-er doing the smelling (me).

Is the screen outside of seeing of it? Where is the line which shows that the seeing ends and the screen begins? Look back from where the seeing is coming. Is there a seer there?

Yes, the screen is outside of seeing it. The line showing where the seeing ends and screen begins is our thought - so when we recognise that the screen is a screen (when we attach a label to it) - that’s when the seeing ends and screen begins.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

Unfortunately, all that you have reported is thought content and not DE. None of what you have described can be observed in DE, but we’ll come back to that. So, let’s start with accustoming you to DE. Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life, so I can see that you understand the exercise
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Oh...

OK, I will try the daily exercises and report back with the list as per your example.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mungunghwa

It's been 5 days since your last reply. Is everything OK? If you're struggling with the exrcise, I can help. Please give me a sign that you haven't given up on the inquiry

Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for checking in. Sorry for not writing to you earlier or for letting you know how long I would take, like I said in my previous message. i have not given up on inquiry. I don't want to give up. I have just been finding it hard to understand, or rather to perceive things without my thoughts getting in the way. So I felt some frustration and took a break. I have written down some examples from my day.


Seeing a candle, simply = image
smelling a candle, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the candle, simply = sensation
Hearing the flame flicker, simply = sound
Thought about blowing out the candle , simply = thought

Seeing a bunch of grapes, simply = image/colour
Smelling a bunch of grapes, simply = smell
Feeling the smoothness of the grapes, simply  = sensation
Tasting the grapes, simply = taste
Thought about eating the grapes, simply = thought

Seeing a tube of toothpaste = simply image/colour
Smelling the tube of toothpaste, simply = smell
Feeling the coolness of the toothpaste, simply = sensation
Tasting the toothpaste, simply = taste
Thought about squeezing the toothpaste, simply = thought 

I really hope I have understood this task correctly.... I think this really helped to focus my practice, so thank you for picking up on how I was struggling with the previous questions :)

Love
Mungunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mungunghwa
Really good! I can see from you examples that you have a clear understanding of DE.

Thank you for checking in. Sorry for not writing to you earlier or for letting you know how long I would take, like I said in my previous message. i have not given up on inquiry. I don't want to give up. I have just been finding it hard to understand, or rather to perceive things without my thoughts getting in the way. So I felt some frustration and took a break. I have written down some examples from my day.

Resistance and frustration are normal. They serve to protect the imaginary self from harm. All these old beliefs are challenged and of course they will not give up without a fight. They don’t want to be seen as a lie – all that time spent building these castles of thoughts and now they are threatened to be levelled down. Remember when you were little and someone told you that Santa is not real. I’m sure there was sadness and resistance – thinking that can’t be right. And then little by little, you started seeing the false bears and recognise familiar people behind the mask, and eventually it was all OK. The world kept on going with one lie less :). So, stay with the resistance. Just look at it as a powerful mechanism and honour it. It does its job. Thank it for it and you can let it go. Look closer. What is behind it? What is it protecting? Is there anything there that needs protection? LOOK!
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your kind understanding :) It is funny that you mention the time when a child realises that Santa is not real. i remember this vividly. I also remember telling the other children that 'santa' was just our teacher in a costume and that he wasn't real and nobody believed me. it felt like a losing battle because I knew that it was the 'truth'. Even though nobody believed me, and they saw things differently to me, I still never went back to believing in Santa, that was it. I saw the truth. I guess this also relates to your questions below:

What is behind it?/quote]
What is behind the resistance and frustration...Behind the resistance, there is FEAR. Fear that if I see things for what they actually are (i.e., not the LABELS I've attached to things) then there would be no meaning to anything. Like, there would be be nothing to attach to for security. It's just this vast....space? There's also fear in not being able to maintain this clarity of truly seeing. I fear that one day it will go away and I won't be able to get it back, even though I 'experienced' it. The frustration is coming from having breakthroughs (truly seeing) and then getting caught up in thoughts again. This back and fourth and then 'not getting it' is a frustration.

What is it protecting? Is there anything there that needs protection? LOOK!

Now, what is the resistance and frustration protecting.....It's protecting my 'old way' of seeing. The familiar. The comfortable lie. It's protecting the stories I tell myself..As I write this, I don't know why these things need protecting really. Perhaps there are some things that I don't want 'to see' ... I know there are some things that I don't want to see..

Lots of love,
Mungunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mungunghwa
Thank you for your honesty!

What is behind the resistance and frustration...Behind the resistance, there is FEAR. Fear that if I see things for what they actually are (i.e., not the LABELS I've attached to things) then there would be no meaning to anything. Like, there would be be nothing to attach to for security. It's just this vast....space?

Yes, fear is the usually the culprit. What is fear in DE – it is a sensation + thought, right? Does the sensation on its own know anything about ‘fear’? It’s just a sensation, left on its own (given all the space that it needs), it comes and goes, leaving no residue.
Now let’s deal with the thoughts. Yes, real material objects cannot be found in DE but that does not mean it’s all empty (nothingness) – there is experiencing there, there is aliveness, being. Like the Buddhists say emptiness is form and form is emptiness. What thought does is describing (or at least trying to) your AE. Labels can be quite useful when it comes to communication. However, we have labels that point to AE – like ‘apple’- and we have labels like ‘Santa’, or ‘I’ that point to imaginary stuff, stuff that cannot be found in AE. The labels that point to AE are useful in communication. When you say ‘apple’ I immediately know which AE you are referring to. Will my experience be exactly like yours, we cannot know, but it does refer to a specific experience. I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But now tell me: did anything drastically change when you realised that Santa is not real? Or just a correction was made: it’s not Santa but my teacher.
Thinking is part of DE too – the play of life. It is what gives the “flavour”(meaning) to “human” experience. Human being is actually not a noun but a verb. Ultimately, there is nothing wrong with a story that truly is (or at least comes close to) describing the actual experience. Unquestioned assumptions (inaccurate descriptions), though, play a crucial role in where and how the story goes. Or at least seems that way. Suffering is part of the human experience too but not a necessary part. It’s optional.

There's also fear in not being able to maintain this clarity of truly seeing. I fear that one day it will go away and I won't be able to get it back, even though I 'experienced' it. The frustration is coming from having breakthroughs (truly seeing) and then getting caught up in thoughts again. This back and fourth and then 'not getting it' is a frustration.

Is DE a special mode of seeing? Or does DE refer to where to look at what really is happening – the senses (not in thought content)? is it possible to not "maintain"/lose DE? It is always there effortlessly happening. In fact, there is nothing else, it is just thought that wrongly describes it as hard work/effort. Present moment is always there, and has nothing to do with certain states. So, basically, you are trying too hard – LOOKING is easy. If I ask you to look for your phone, you would quite naturally, without forcing it, take a look and find it. That’s how you look. Is there a need to maintain any special skills?
Yes, it will take time for old beliefs to be re-examined and discarded if untrue, but that happens naturally (on its own) with LOOKING. This back and forth that you’re mentioning is the battle of old and new beliefs. So don’t despair, it’s already happening. Trust the process. Fear and resistance are symptoms that the process is working.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali :)

in response to your questions

What is fear in DE – it is a sensation + thought, right?

Yes….Fear is a sensation I feel in my body. But it’s only ‘fear’ when I attach a thought to it - “this is fear”. Without the thought, it is just a sensation I experience.

Does the sensation on its own know anything about ‘fear’?

No, the sensation on its own knows nothing about fear….it’s only fear when there is a label attached. My thoughts make it fear….Wow. I have never thought about it like this before.


Thank you for helping me understand the purpose of labels a little better. They can be useful for communication. This provides some comfort, actually, as experience is then not nothingness - there are still labels and it’s OK to use them. So the recognition that Santa was my teacher, felt like more of a correction. Nothing drastic happened after the realisation. It wasn’t even emotional; just a sense of understanding that one thing wasn’t what I once thought.

Is DE a special mode of seeing? Or does DE refer to where to look at what really is happening – the senses (not in thought content)? is it possible to not "maintain"/lose DE?

Wow, this is a good question. I first would have said that DE is a special mode of seeing (i.e.,I am going to look using DE) but it’s not. It is about where I am looking (the senses), so I don’t think DE is a special mode of seeing. So then if it’s not a special mode of seeing (only it directs us where to look) then I don’t think it is possible to lose DE. It’s always there! There’s nothing to fear in terms of losing it. There is no loss with it. I also don’t need to try to maintain a sense of control over it; like you said, it's effortless. It’s going to be there as long as I know where to look :)

Sending lots of love,
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Very good! I can feel you’re ready to go on.

Yes….Fear is a sensation I feel in my body.

Now let’s look at 'your’ body
Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax.
Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.
Also, is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali :)

Here are my answers to your questions following the exercise:

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No, I don’t know how high up or low down the body is. It just feels like it's there with no other frame of reference to compare how tall/short it is. It's just there.

Does the body have a weight or volume?

There is some 'weight' felt, but I cannot determine the actual weight of volume of the body.

in the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No, I cant sense a form or a specific body shape. It feels impossible to so so

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

I can't feel a boundary between them. It feels like they are one.

At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

I can feel a sensation....like a pressure of where my body and the chair meet, but I can’t feel a separation. They feel one/together.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label/word ‘body’ refers to a space where sensations are experienced. It's almost like it doesn’t exist - I am not really aware of it until I feel a sensation and even then, i can't tell where the body starts and the sensation sends. So the actual experience of the body is just to feel sensations.

is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

Wow....If I can't feel or sense my body when I close my eyes (i.e not observe it) then it doesn't feel like my body. It is not "my" body. It doesn't belong to me because I can't see "it" and there's nothing to distinguish it from anyone else's body. So it would be just a body, feeling sensations.


Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Really good exploring!!

I can feel a sensation....like a pressure of where my body and the chair meet, but I can’t feel a separation. They feel one/together.

Yes! Very good!

The label/word ‘body’ refers to a space where sensations are experienced.

Yes! ‘Body’ is label/name for a lot of sensations (weight, pressure, etc.) Now look, is there a center/location where the sensations are appearing? Is there a sensation and space, or just sensation (sensing)? What do you SEE? Describe the space.

Wow....If I can't feel or sense my body when I close my eyes (i.e not observe it) then it doesn't feel like my body.

Now, let’s repeat the same exercise with eyes open. What is there (please refer to the “cup of coffee” example)?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

HI Rali :) Thank you!

is there a center/location where the sensations are appearing?

Yes, it seems to be located in the middle of my body, but they more I sit with it, I can feel sensations in my feet, hands. The central location is in the middle of the body, though.

Is there a sensation and space, or just sensation (sensing)? What do you SEE? Describe the space.

I don’t feel any space around the body…It doesn’t feel located in any space at all. But there are spaces within the body that I am sensing - some spaces feel more pressure or weight than others. I even feel a tingling sensation in my feet and hands that feel different to the pressure I'm feeling in the location of where the body is making contact with the seat.

let’s repeat the same exercise with eyes open. What is there (please refer to the “cup of coffee” example)?

Please could you provide some clarity with this question? Do you mean observing/sensing my surroundings while sitting down or simply observing my body (I.e what the body is touching, tasting, hearing etc in this moment?

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
I can see some contradictions between your previous reply and this reply

No, I cant sense a form or a specific body shape. It feels impossible to so so…
…Yes, it seems to be located in the middle of my body, but they more I sit with it, I can feel sensations in my feet, hands. The central location is in the middle of the body, though.

If there is no shape and form how can you say where the middle is? If the body is simply name (label) for sensations where is the middle of the sensation? Or are these - my feet, my hands, the middle – just more names (labels) of different sensations? Have another look, please. With your eyes closed, is there a ‘hand’ there or just sensation?

I don’t feel any space around the body…It doesn’t feel located in any space at all.

Good! Because there is no body with any shape or form, right? Just sensations...

But there are spaces within the body that I am sensing - some spaces feel more pressure or weight than others.

How do you experience this? Do you see these spaces, hear them, taste, etc? When something seems like something (space) but you can’t directly experience it, it suggests really thought content, not DE. Remember our cup of coffee exercise (when asked you to break down activities into DE). If you have to break down your DE with this what would be there (when sitting on a chair with eyes closed)?
Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

I even feel a tingling sensation in my feet and hands that feel different to the pressure I'm feeling in the location of where the body is making contact with the seat.

Is there a possibility that they are simply different sensations labelled differently?
Example:
feeling a tingling sensation in my feet, simply = sensation
feeling a tingling sensation in my hand, simply =sensation
feeling where the body is making contact with the seat, simply = sensation

let’s repeat the same exercise with eyes open. What is there (please refer to the “cup of coffee” example)?

Please could you provide some clarity with this question? Do you mean observing/sensing my surroundings while sitting down or simply observing my body (I.e what the body is touching, tasting, hearing etc in this moment?

These exercises – with eyes closed and open – are intended to explore the ‘body’. So, yes, just observe the body sitting on a chair. What is there really in DE? Use the method mentioned above of the coffee cup. Is this clear, now?
Love
Rali