New to LU: looking for a guide

[warissem]

Good evening

Yes, probably the sense of incompleteness has something to do with my expectations.
I was expecting to feel in some way different after having seen through the illusion of the separate self but instead, I don't feel in any way different.

Yes, because the old habits and conditionings are still operating. The illusion is in the thoughts. Look at what you said above and just discriminate between thoughts and direct experience.

You know, there is a lot of buzz around this thing called enlightenment and at least I was expecting some clear shift in the way I feel.

Do you see that what you said is a thought story ?

Sure, I can relate to that, but again I don't feel any discontinuity from before the inquiry.

Hopefully that there is no discontinuity : before the inquiry seeing and knowing is happening, after the inquiry seeing and knowing is happening.

I know that the shift can be subtle and it's delusional to expect fireworks, but I'm doubting to have really seen through the illusion of the separate self.

The doubt arises as a thought.
What arises as sensations, feelings, thoughts when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, it never was, it never will be.

I also noticed some habitual reactivity arising in usual circumstances (conflicts with my partner) that give me the impression that nothing has changed after the realization.

The problem is in the identification with a person, a me for whom things happen : have you seen that there is no you for whom things happen ?
Conflicts are part of life. Life is expressing itself as a whole : conflicts, peace, joy, sorrow, …

Nevertheless, I'm pretty confident about the results of my inquiry. As I said before is crystal clear that there is no self to be fond, but only life expressing itself freely and spontaneously through this body-mind organism.

Great.

As I said pretty much the same as before. Maybe a little more relaxed and in acceptance of what is moment by moment.
To me, it seems simply a change of perspective, more than a change in how I feel.

Yes.

How it was for you my friend?
You experienced a clear shift in how you felt or was something so subtle that you barely noticed any change?

You know, a lot of videos, audios, books about this stuff : you go through the gate as it is said but almost all seekers expect the annihilation of the “me” just after having seen that there is no separate self. It could be the case for those which have not accumulated habits, conditionings (young people in general) but in all cases, conditionings and old habits continue to operate. In this case the process can continue through deep looking, through being knowingly aware, or going through the ten fetters or whatever.

Also, I'm really curious about you, I realized only now that I don't know anything about you.
How old are you? Where are you from?

I can give you answers to these questions at the end of this thread, when you will be invited in facebook groups.


There is an investigation to deepen the seeing of no separate self.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Thanks again Warissem for your availability and dedication to help me sort this thing out.

You are welcome.

Best wishes

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

Yes, because the old habits and conditionings are still operating. The illusion is in the thoughts. Look at what you said above and just discriminate between thoughts and direct experience.

Do you see that what you said is a thought story?

Hopefully that there is no discontinuity: before the inquiry seeing and knowing are happening after the inquiry seeing and knowing are happening.

After you pointed out, yes obviously, I see that my expectations are only thoughts superimposed on the raw experience of this moment as it is.
As you said old habits and conditionings are still operating and I too, suspect they aren’t going to magically disappear overnight.

The doubt arises as a thought.
What arises as sensations, feelings, thoughts when you read this :

There is no you, no separate self in any shape or form, it never was, it never will be.

I become quiet, an open field of awareness. Thought stops, because there is no one looking for something, only a silent presence.
Every sensation, feeling or thought that arises as doubt is only some habitual mental noise triggered at the moment.

The problem is in the identification with a person, a me for whom things happen: have you seen that there is no you for whom things happen?
Conflicts are part of life. Life is expressing itself as a whole: conflicts, peace, joy, sorrow, …

I think that I understand, things are as they are, not a problem to be solved.
If conflicts arise doesn’t mean that there is someone to whom it happens, so it doesn’t deny my realization.

You know, a lot of videos, audio, and books about this stuff: you go through the gate as it is said but almost all seekers expect the annihilation of the “me” just after having seen that there is no separate self. It could be the case for those who have not accumulated habits, and conditionings (young people in general) but in all cases, conditionings and old habits continue to operate. In this case, the process can continue through deep looking, through being knowingly aware, or going through the ten fetters or whatever.

I see, the realization is only the beginning, not the end. I really would like to deepen this realization but I don’t know how to proceed.
I read something about the ten fetters but I don’t know much. Can you tell me more?
Is that path that you followed after your realization? Or something else?

I can give you answers to these questions at the end of this thread when you will be invited to Facebook groups.

Sure, I understand.

I will take some more time to explore the investigation about the body that you suggested to me last time and write you back with my findings. It is ok for you?

Good evening Warissem and see you soon.

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

Glad to read your post : things are clearer about this stuff.

I see, the realization is only the beginning, not the end. I really would like to deepen this realization but I don’t know how to proceed.

Have you seen that there is no you to deepen the realization ?
Who wants to know how to proceed ? Look again at this I, don't let it hide.

NB : the process will deepen with the exercises and investigations which will be given here.

Waiting for the investigation about the body. Take in mind a question during the observation :
Is there a knower of sensations ?

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

Glad to read your post: things are clearer about this stuff.

Yes, things are getting clearer day by day and new aspects emerge from every exploration that we do.
It seems like the realization is showing its different facets and implications.

Have you seen that there is no you to deepen the realization?
Who wants to know how to proceed? Look again at this I, don’t let it hide.

Thanks for pointing this out! Now I see that no one can deepen his realization and that there is no one that moves in a timeline looking for new insights and trying to reach the final goal of enlightenment.

Waiting for the investigation about the body. Take in mind a question during the observation:
Is there a knower of sensations?

In the direct experience, the body is made only of a skein of flowing sensations.
It’s not possible to determine things like height, weight or form because there is no object to which to attribute them.
Also, it’s not possible to determine a border between the body and the external world. In the direct experience, the border is made of simple sensations in which it’s impossible to distinguish two objects separately because it is a matter of only one sensation.
There is no inside or outside but every sensation appears indiscriminately on the screen of consciousness.
The word/label ‘body’, like every other word or label, in the direct experience has no meaning because in fact don’t exist any object as such but only impermanent sensations that appear indiscriminately in the field of awareness.
Finally, there is no knower of sensations, but only knowing as such.
Also, the knowing is the very same sensation or we can equally say that the sensations are made entirely of the knowing.

Warissem, thanks a lot for suggesting me to explore the body, I loved it!
Now I have no more questions but I’m ready to do any other investigation that you would like to recommend.

All the best

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

Finally, there is no knower of sensations, but only knowing as such.
Also, the knowing is the very same sensation or we can equally say that the sensations are made entirely of the knowing.

Great job is done here. Now, look at what is around you : is there a separate self in animals and other people, so to say ?

Some inquiries to look at :

Is there a doer of activities ?
Are you making decisions ?
What are you responsible for ?

Give a separate answer to each question. Take time to look till you see the answer.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

A great job is done here. Now, look at what is around you: is there a separate self in animals and other people, so to say?

This was difficult!
In my direct experience, there is no self in animals and other people: only one single movement, life expressing itself as the totality of what appears moment by moment.
Life force animates apparent beings and selves that seem to interact with one another, but in reality, there are not many beings and selves, only one undivided experience.

Is there a doer of activities?

I can't find one. Activities arise as spontaneous movements.
Since everything happens by itself there is no doer as such or we could equally say that everything is accomplished by the whole.
Like the Buddha said: "Decision happens, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof".

Are you making decisions?

Not at all, and I must add, seeing this brings me great relief.
Decisions arise by themselves, even after much going back and forth between options, but the point is that no one is doing all that.
Also, decisions are the result of countless factors, for example, preferences, circumstances, opportunities, or even things like weather. It is impossible to point to a single factor as the ultimate cause of a decision, so the idea of being he who decides is simply ridiculous.

What are you responsible for?

I'm responsible for nothing at all.
Since every single decision or action arises spontaneously, no one can be considered responsible for what happens.
This is true also for other people. No one can be considered responsible for what they do, so there is no space for blame or guilt and this means peace with oneself and others.

Having said all that, sadly I must admit that, despite this seeing, a lot of reactivity happens, especially as blame towards the other, because the old habits and conditionings are still operating.
As we said before, it isn't reasonable to expect old habits to fall away so easily, but I was wondering if you know something that could help me with this process.
Last time you mentioned something about the ten fetters and other things that I don't know. Are these useful methods for helping this process? Or have you some advice to give in dealing with the conditionings still in place?

Have a nice day

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

I am glad to read your post. You asked about conditionnings and old patterns. A whole life of habits don't go in a finger click. In Lu facebook groups, you can ask and look for answers. There are indications about Deep looking by Ilona, going through the ten fetters and you can discuss any topic there.

Is seeking still happening ? If so, what is missing ?
Anyway feel free to ask any question about this stuff or expose any lasting doubt.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

I am glad to read your post.

Thanks, I'm glad as well that our inquiry seems to bear some fruit.
Bravo!

You asked about conditionings and old patterns. A whole life of habits doesn't go in a finger click.

Yeah, I'm starting to realize it :)
This is what I think in some spiritual teaching is called 'embodiment' and it is the thing that marks the difference between awakening and liberation.
I'm all for liberation, so surely I would like to participate in the Facebook group of LU.

Is seeking still happening?

It depends on what you intend with seeking.
There is no more striving, no more looking for some teaching and no need to understand the truth because is obviously what is here and now. Actually, I don't do any practice or meditation, I'm simply living my life or being lived I should say.
On the other end, I'm still looking for something into the future, for example regarding my disease. I'm often anxious and desperate because there is still no clear treatment available.
So fifty-fifty.

If so, what is missing?

I don't know. Maybe as you suggested there is a need for more time before the conditionings fall away or maybe is needed some help for deepening the realization.

Anyway, feel free to ask any question about this stuff or expose any lasting doubt.

Thanks, but honestly there is nothing on my mind at this moment, but I will write you back if something arises.

I'm still a little bit shocked by the absence of any big shift in my experience, everything seems to be more or less like always.
In the past, there are been many peak experiences, but nowadays they are only a far memory.

I think these experiences will never happen again, is it true?
What is your opinion based on your experience?

Ops! I have just realized that looking for peak experiences technically is still seeking. My bad!

All the best

Akshant

[warissem]

Good evening

Yeah, I'm starting to realize it :)
This is what I think in some spiritual teaching is called 'embodiment' and it is the thing that marks the difference between awakening and liberation.
I'm all for liberation, so surely I would like to participate in the Facebook group of LU.

Have you seen definitely that there is no you, no I to be liberated. Liberation is from the you. That is I am pointing to, from the beginning of this dialog. You are expecting an experience : the seeing that "I" does not exist in real life, the seeing that a separate self is a fiction, is like seeing that there is no water in the mirage. Whenever you see a mirage you know for sure there is no water there. Whenever an "I" arises, you know for sure that there is nothing behind it.

It depends on what you intend with seeking.
There is no more striving, no more looking for some teaching and no need to understand the truth because is obviously what is here and now.

Yes, great.

Actually, I don't do any practice or meditation, I'm simply living my life or being lived I should say.

There is life expressing itself.

On the other end, I'm still looking for something into the future, for example regarding my disease. I'm often anxious and desperate because there is still no clear treatment available.
So fifty-fifty.

Yes, it is necessary to think about your health (of the body). But, is there a past or a future outside of thoughts ?

I don't know. Maybe as you suggested there is a need for more time before the conditionings fall away or maybe is needed some help for deepening the realization.

I see that the "I" wants more than what is. There are projections of a you in the future. I can assure you : there is no you to be realized in the future. There was no you, there is no you, there will be no you. All what is happening now IS all WHAT IS : appearances, sensations, feelings, emotions, thoughts, ... are happening. Even the thoughts with an "I" are happening, thoughts about a future realization are happening now.
LOOK at what is said above till you see the truth of each word. Look around you : is there something missing to complete WHAT IS ? Is there a realization of truth missing ? Is there someone there not content with this truth, plain view ?

Thanks, but honestly there is nothing on my mind at this moment, but I will write you back if something arises.

You are welcome.

I'm still a little bit shocked by the absence of any big shift in my experience, everything seems to be more or less like always.

In this very moment, are you seeing the images (thoughts) of "yourself" as thoughts only and there is no identification with the knowing of them (like you see a table or a chair)?
Have you seen that the "I" conducting some thoughts is only a thought and there is no identification to it ?

In the past, there are been many peak experiences, but nowadays they are only a far memory.

All experiences come and go.

I think these experiences will never happen again, is it true?
What is your opinion based on your experience?

A lot of insights have taken place, I don't care about experiences. Being simply, knowingly aware.

Ops! I have just realized that looking for peak experiences technically is still seeking. My bad!

Yes.

Look with scrutiny at all the questions above and give answers through direct experience.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

Nice to talk to you again!

Have you seen definitely that there is no you, no I to be liberated? Liberation is from the you. That is what I am pointing to, from the beginning of this dialog.

Right. I'm amazed at how subtle the I-thought is, and now I can see how liberation is the ultimate hiding place. Thanks for pointing this out.

You are expecting an experience: the seeing that "I" does not exist in real life, the seeing that a separate self is fiction, is like seeing that there is no water in the mirage. Whenever you see a mirage you know for sure there is no water there. Whenever an "I" arises, you know for sure that there is nothing behind it.

Brilliant analogy!

Yes, it is necessary to think about your health (of the body). But, is there a past or a future outside of thoughts?

Obviously not, worries and anxieties are simply thoughts above another thought called the future.

I see that the "I" wants more than what is. There are projections of a you in the future. I can assure you: there is no you to be realized in the future. There was no you, there is no you, there will be no you. All that is happening now IS all THAT IS: appearances, sensations, feelings, emotions, thoughts, ... are happening.

You are right, I'm still caught in projecting a me into the future because of the thought that this can't be it. You know, all the buzz around this thing called enlightenment is deeply rooted in the subconscious after decades of seeking, so I'm still expecting something like what I've heard from teachers and books.

LOOK at what is said above till you see the truth of each word. Look around you: is there something missing to complete WHAT IS? Is there a realization of the truth missing? Is there someone there not content with this truth, plain view?

Now I see, THIS IS IT! This simple being, knowingly aware. Nothing is missing from what is because it is all that is and no one can't be content with this truth, only a movement in thoughts.

In this very moment, are you seeing the images (thoughts) of "yourself" as thoughts only and there is no identification with the knowing of them (like you see a table or a chair)?
Have you seen that the "I" conducting some thoughts is only a thought and there is no identification to it?

Sure. The I-thought operates by attaching itself to other thoughts and now this is clearly seen exactly like a chair or a table is seen. The I-thought is not the problem until there is no identification whit it.

A lot of insights have taken place, I don't care about experiences. Being simply, knowingly aware.

Now I finally understand, this simply being knowingly aware is enough for me also. No more seeking peak experiences or any other than the one present here and now, this simple being is unshakable peace and utter fulfillment.

I was thinking that spirituality is a joke. The ultimate scam, although a sacred one. Before it instills in the mind the idea that there is something other than THIS to be attained and finally reveals again than THIS IS IT, but in the meantime, all dissatisfactions and future projections of fulfillment have fallen away.

I want to express all my gratitude. You helped me tremendously pointing relentlessly and with much patience to the truth until I was able to see. You made a really good job and I will be forever grateful to you!

Greetings,

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

It is a real pleasure to read your post. You have done the job, I am just pointing where to look. In this forum, we ask some questions to finish the dialog. Anyway, you can contact me at any time.

These are the questions :

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

----

Hi Warissem
let’s dive in!

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form
Was there ever?

No, there is no separate entity, or self, me, I at all, anywhere, in any shape or form.
The separate entity is only an illusion created by thought. It doesn’t exist in reality, it never existed, and will never exist as something real.

Give in your own words what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

First, the I-thought arises in the mind as I am, I exist, backed by the beingness or aliveness that is felt. With the first appearance of the I-thought, the idea of separation is born. The other people and the world start to be seen as something other than us, giving rise to the feeling of separation.

After that the I-thought attaches itself to many other thoughts, it becomes me, my-self, mine until it gives rise to the illusion of being a separate entity, someone who takes decisions, performs deeds, and to which life circumstances happen.

From there on the I-thought continues to exist unquestioned, and starts to distort the entire perception of reality, becoming the filter through which life is experienced.

But when the I-thought is challenged through inquiry, it is finally seen for what it is, only a thought whit no more reality than any other thought. After the awakening, the I-thought cannot be believed anymore, and life is experienced as a spontaneous flow, an unbounded experiencing without nobody owing the experience.

How does it feel to see this?

It feels like unshakable clarity. Reality is finally seen for what it is with nothing added on top of it. The simplicity of this moment is lived without unnecessary complications and conflicts.

There is a feeling of effortless flowing, even when circumstances are challenging. There is less thinking and more silence because not believing in the I-thought frees the mind from unnecessary thinking.

Finally, there is more ease in the present moment, a feeling of rest with what it is. Seeking stops and giving space to presence. Life is experienced more vividly without many filters superimposed by the thought process.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

The differences are subtle but definitely present. There is an increased ease and peace in the background and less resistance to what is. There is also an increased sense of fulfillment, that nothing is missing or lacking.

What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Our last dialog made me see that I was looking for something other than WHAT IS. I was expecting some kind of experience and when you told me that awakening is like seeing a mirage and knowing there is no water there something clicked.

I saw that being knowingly aware is all that matters, it is what all the teachings were pointing at and what I was looking for, not realizing it was always so. The identity of the seeker collapsed the moment was seen that there is nothing more to be achieved other than WHAT IS.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?

Well, all these are only ideas superimposed on the happening of living. The ideas of free will, choice, and control have foundation upon the cornerstone of the I-thought, so are nothing more than thoughts upon another thought.

There is no entity there to have free will or faculty of decision, intention or choice, but decisions, intentions and choices all are happening spontaneously by themselves. Life force moves as a whole so there is no separate fragment apart to exert volition, no individual doer as such. As the Buddha said, decision happens, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof.

Give examples from your own recent experiences of how things happen and how things work.

I can’t pinpoint anything in particular but I simply noticed that I’m moved by the life force, I’m being lived so to say. Every thought, emotion, and action arises without intention, but as a spontaneous happening of the whole.

Circumstances arise in my life, so responses to that circumstances are born directly in response to these circumstances, so there is no room for someone that makes choices and decisions.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences of how this works.

Since every single decision or action arises spontaneously and by itself, no one can be considered responsible for what happens.
This is true also for other people. No one can be considered responsible for what they do, so there is no space for blame or guilt and this means peace with oneself and others.

Recently there was a discussion with my spouse and I saw that I can’t blame her or myself for what we are, and at that moment there was total acceptance and love. No more trying to change “the other”, but simply being the space in which “the other” can be what it is.

Anything to add?

I don’t think so. But I would like to thank you again Warissem, for your precious help and assistance. Also, I would like to thank the creators of Liberation Unleashed because they have provided the opportunity for many people like me to see the truth of our being.

I would like to end with an anecdote. Recently I remembered a discourse of Osho in which he narrates an event revolving around the figure of the historical Buddha. The Buddha was asked about his successor and he said that it will be called Maitreya, which means friend in Sanskrit. Osho commented that this means that the era of the gurus will come to an end and a new era of brotherhood will flourish. I feel that LU is exactly this, the perfect incarnation of that and a new way of sharing the truth.

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

I am glad to read your answers. I invite other guides to read them : they may have further questions, if any. You will be invited soon to LU groups on facebook.

Best for you

Warissem

[Akshant]

Hi Warissem

Ok, I look forward to any questions the other guides would like to ask me.

In the meantime I would like to ask you something: I noticed that I tend to lose sight of what I saw in our inquiry very quickly.

As I told you, I’m in the midst of a very problematic situation with my health, so things happen that bring me suddenly into despair. Obviously, there is still a Me that is in desperation so it looks like I’m in need of some more seeing.

What do you think?

Akshant

[warissem]

Hi Akshant

Glad to hear from you.

As I told you, I’m in the midst of a very problematic situation with my health, so things happen that bring me suddenly into despair. Obviously, there is still a Me that is in desperation so it looks like I’m in need of some more seeing.

I said in a previous that the old habits won't disappear in a finger click. Look at this Me as you looked at it already. This is an ordinary situation. Does awareness (being aware) in desperation ? Is the body saying something about its health ? There is only a thought of identification which is " I am desperate". Recognize all thoughts as what they are : just thoughts and don't give them credit. Is there someone behind "I" saying "I am desperate". You need to look at the thought I, me and catch its falsity.

We wait for the questions, if any, of other guides.

Best for you

Warissem