My journey into realization

[KingGong]

Hi

Okey. How this 'me' still manages to make itself seem real is incredible. These last pointers reveal new ways and angles to look at the 'me' and experience, which gave me more clarity.

Agree. The doer cannot be found which makes it obvious that it cannot be be seen through. Even if it was found (like the attention), I cannot see how it could see through itself.
That makes sense both in experience and in understanding.

There is the popular assumption that "I think" and that it is "me" that "does" this. Look a creator of thoughts. Try creating a thought. What happens ?

When I tried to create a thought, the opposite happened. Experience got still for a while and then a thought happened spontaneously. There was no doer or 'me' involved.

Imagine a huge iceberg out at sea. Notice where the iceberg is. Is there an image? Does that iceberg fit inside a head? Is a head containing the image of an iceberg?

Same for the iceberg exercise. No doer makes the iceberg inside the head. No doer makes the thought. The 'head' is an afterthought, or a word used when thoughts explain to imagine a huge iceberg out at sea. Then some sensations that seem to originate inside my head or face before and after the actual thought of a huge iceberg. There is of course nothing inside of the thoughts or sensations.

Also did look closer on the "heavy cloudy feeling". if anything, it is a sensation. Then a thought or association of thoughts described it as "feeling heavy and clouded". Again no direct experience of a head. Just sensations and thoughts.

Feel more clarity and space around the 'me-nees'. The 'me-ness' is nothing more than a sensation or thought, if anything at all. What's left now I am not really sure.


Kind regards

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. Okey. How this 'me' still manages to make itself seem real is incredible. These last pointers reveal new ways and angles to look at the 'me' and experience, which gave me more clarity.

Good to hear that.

. The doer cannot be found which makes it obvious that it cannot be be seen through. Even if it was found (like the attention), I cannot see how it could see through itself.
That makes sense both in experience and in understanding.

This is true.. But do you find that it often seems that there is a "doer"? Like a long-held belief or assumption the illusion of "doer" can still appear ? Even though it's obvious when looked for that there isn't one really?

. When I tried to create a thought, the opposite happened. Experience got still for a while and then a thought happened spontaneously. There was no doer or 'me' involved.

Wow. Great! And the iceberg thought experiment too.

. Also did look closer on the "heavy cloudy feeling". if anything, it is a sensation. Then a thought or association of thoughts described it as "feeling heavy and clouded". Again no direct experience of a head. Just sensations and thoughts.

In this case it's probably worth continuing to examine the heavy clouded feeling from time to time,especially if it comes up often..

Look at it from a couple of points of view. One is the language you have used. "Heavy and clouded" for whom (or what)? . An entity is definitely implied. "If only he could see clearly".

Also notice if the clouded feeling comes with an energetic sensation or a thought about needing to change something. In that case, what is "wrong" about just taking an interest in this "cloudedness" that comes up? What is it?

. Feel more clarity and space around the 'me-nees'. The 'me-ness' is nothing more than a sensation or thought, if anything at all. What's left now I am not really sure.

Awesome!

Well, there's going for a,walk in nature! I suggest you make an opportunity to take a walk somewhere with trees, grass, or the sea. A park would do. .

When you're there, notice everything thats alive around you. Weather, sun, clouds, grass, trees, animals, sounds, insects, birds, people. Everything alive and wiggling. Also notice any sensations experienced. Any thoughts appearing.

Now,look for a line or edge where "you" end and "everything else" begins. Is it possible to find one?

Cheers

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

This is true.. But do you find that it often seems that there is a "doer"? Like a long-held belief or assumption the illusion of "doer" can still appear ? Even though it's obvious when looked for that there isn't one really?

Yes. Thank you for holding me back a sec. There is a sense of self. This sense is strongest during or right after conversations. Also when there is an internal dialogue with myself, people, imagined events or memories of conversations. I don't know how many times during a day the word 'I' or 'me' is referred to in thoughts, it is quite a few.

"Heavy and clouded" for whom (or what)? . An entity is definitely implied. "If only he could see clearly".

Again yes. It looks like it is the story of me that uses this words. I was thinking, when I see through the sense of self, this will be less "heavy and clouded".

Also notice if the clouded feeling comes with an energetic sensation or a thought about needing to change something. In that case, what is "wrong" about just taking an interest in this "cloudedness" that comes up? What is it?

It seems much of that cloudedness is thoughts about how conversations should go or how they went, repeating the conversations and feeling it again. It's nothing more than thoughts, feelings and sensations.This sense of self and all its stories still colors my experience like an automatic habit, making me 'unconscious' or not able to be present in what's happening around me when the ripples/echo of a conversation is present. I think these after effects have been calmer than before we started our dialogue, or at least more easy to look at.

I will continue to look at the cloudedness and looking forward to go for a walk this weekend.


Cheers

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. Yes. Thank you for holding me back a sec. There is a sense of self. This sense is strongest during or right after conversations. Also when there is an internal dialogue with myself, people, imagined events or memories of conversations. I don't know how many times during a day the word 'I' or 'me' is referred to in thoughts, it is quite a few.

You have pointed to the significant role that words, labels, language, concepts have in this. It's true. It's almost impossible to get away from words and dualistic talk. Whether it's thoughts or whether it's TV, reading or talking , "you" and "me' are enshrined within that as assumed separate and fixed entities, as well as "us" and "them" "mine" and "yours", "self" and "other".

Is it thoughts, labels, language , that create the illusion of "self"? Exactly where is the entity without reference to such a one?

. I was thinking, when I see through the sense of self, this will be less "heavy and clouded".

It could be. But it's still thoughts "saying" this. Is it actually true? It's necessary to emerge from or shed any expectations or assumptions about "how it will be'.

. It seems much of that cloudedness is thoughts about how conversations should go or how they went, repeating the conversations and feeling it again. It's nothing more than thoughts, feelings and sensations.This sense of self and all its stories still colors my experience like an automatic habit, making me 'unconscious' or not able to be present in what's happening around me when the ripples/echo of a conversation is present. I think these after effects have been calmer than before we started our dialogue, or at least more easy to look at.

I question whether thoughts have the power to "make you unconscious" rather than to create an illusion that there's a 'srlf' that is, or has been unconscious?

Have you ever had the experience of not being aware?


Cheers

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi Jon

Is it thoughts, labels, language , that create the illusion of "self"? Exactly where is the entity without reference to such a one?

I think the vision is important and create the illusion of "self" together with thoughts, labels and language. I see people all around. Sometimes they look at 'me' sometimes not. In any case I feel self-aware. There is a sense of self behind the vision or person behind the movie screen looking out at the landscape, or is it? While writing this, I looked for it, and it was gone. Just some bodily sensations and the attention moving around like the exercise you gave me. I think the illusion is never right 'here'. You can never find the illusion, see the illusion. Just a background familiar 'me-ness' that is the sensations of having muscles around the eyes and face, and seeing the world and the thoughts, labels and language creating a familiar aura, which the mind calls 'me'. But when you look closer, it disappears.

It could be. But it's still thoughts "saying" this. Is it actually true? It's necessary to emerge from or shed any expectations or assumptions about "how it will be'.

No, I don't know if it is true. I want to get rid of any expectations and assumptions. I don't mind what the experience will look like as long as it is not filtered through layers of (social) inauthenticity and doubt/seeking.

I question whether thoughts have the power to "make you unconscious" rather than to create an illusion that there's a 'srlf' that is, or has been unconscious?

Yes. Seems like an assumption I made, which has no proof in anything other than thoughts about the past.

Have you ever had the experience of not being aware?

This made me laugh. No, of course not. Seems like a silly question now, but my mind took it seriously and I had to think first.

I had a nice walk today. It was an experience of nature, aliveness in the environment. It felt direct, fresh and new. I did not find an edge because I could not find myself. I think the closest I came to finding a self and an edge was when thoughts came up. But I might have to take another walk to look more closely.


Cheers
Torgeir

[KingGong]

Btw.

Now,look for a line or edge where "you" end and "everything else" begins. Is it possible to find one?

It is not possible to find an edge. There is no edge in this soup of energy, life or whatever word I use to describe "this".
Just had to point that out. It is in fact edgeless, which is pretty nice to think about :-)

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Thanks for your great posts.

I'm rather tired this evening . I will reply in the morning.

All the best

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. I think the vision is important and create the illusion of "self" together with thoughts, labels and language.

Yes 'eyesight' can be a common place of identification as "me" and it can help to keep exiting this, as you are doing. A common idea is that "I am consciousness looking out through eyes and located in the head".

An interesting exercise is to notice sensations in the soles of your feet for a while. After a few moments does it seem that "you are in your head behind your eyes" so much? Are sensations in feet experienced exactly where the sensations happen?

. This made me laugh. No, of course not. Seems like a silly question now, but my mind took it seriously and I had to think first.

Ha ha. Yes it's funny but actually it does challenge ideas about "not being conscious" or that someone has to 'try to be aware'.

. one?
It is not possible to find an edge. There is no edge in this soup of energy, life or whatever word I use to describe "this".
Just had to point that out. It is in fact edgeless, which is pretty nice to think about :-)

It is! It's even more interesting to explore this edgelessness by playing with it, looking at it.

Cheers

Jon

[JonathanR]

Oops sorry...

. and it can help to keep exiting this, as you are doi

This should have read "exploring" not "exiting

[KingGong]

Thank you, Jon

Yes 'eyesight' can be a common place of identification as "me" and it can help to keep exiting this, as you are doing. A common idea is that "I am consciousness looking out through eyes and located in the head".

An interesting exercise is to notice sensations in the soles of your feet for a while. After a few moments does it seem that "you are in your head behind your eyes" so much? Are sensations in feet experienced exactly where the sensations happen?

There is almost a magnetic pull towards the head sometimes, even when doing this exercise. It feels like the attention switches from the foot, to the head and to the foot and head simultaneously. There is also a vibration around the foot and body which is not easy to locate exactly. After couple of times the sense of the attention going down on the floor diminished, feeling the soles more closer and not "down on the floor", but there was still some sense of 'me' behind the eyes while doing it, almost whispering "your attention is now 'below'", just to annoy me.

It is! It's even more interesting to explore this edgelessness by playing with it, looking at it.

Will definitely continue to do that.


All the best

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. but there was still some sense of 'me' behind the eyes while doing it, almost whispering "your attention is now 'below'", just to annoy me.

Ha ha! The universe can be very mischievous.

Explore this 'feeling' of self. Does thought dress up in the clothes of feeling?

What are feelings actually? Are they energetic sensations? Do energetic sensations 'say' anything?

Cheers

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi!

Thoughts tend to overcomplicate things, exercises, sensations, etc., and yes, very mischievous it seems.

Focusing the attention on the sole of the feet again. Sensations there. Then. Feeling the sensation is on the sole of the feet on the ground. Just another thought in the clothes of a feeling. I feel the sensation is in my foot which is located on the ground. Another thought about feeling, mixed together it seems.

I don't know what "feelings" are to be honest. I think I know what sensations are: Attention focusing on something in the body. The body is alive. I think feel is linked with the I. The 'me'. I could use a dictionary, but I don't think I need to overcomplicate it. It seems "feeling" is redundant? Something the "I" loves to use?

I could also say or think something like: "I feel I have to do something about it".
I know even before looking that this is just a sensation in the body and/or hearing words as thoughts. It might seem like the thought and sensation are linked together, and I think the attention can focus on them together simultaneously.
My hypothesis: "I feel I have to do something about it" = Energetic sensation in the body + Thinking "I have to do something about it".


Cheers

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

My apologies for delay in replying.

. Focusing the attention on the sole of the feet again. Sensations there. Then. Feeling the sensation is on the sole of the feet on the ground. Just another thought in the clothes of a feeling. I feel the sensation is in my foot which is located on the ground. Another thought about feeling, mixed together it seems.

I'm glad you tried this again. Yes, thoughts do appear and very often , it seems, this can bean ongoing commentary, a process of labelling and narrative.

Try returning to the feet exercise once more and notice the sensation around the soles, where there is contact with floor. Close your eyes. Is there beginning or end to this sensation? Is there "you, feeling it"? Where do "feet" end and "floor" begin?

. Attention focusing on something in the body. The body is alive. I think feel is linked with the I. The 'me'. I could use a dictionary, but I don't think I need to overcomplicate it. It seems "feeling" is redundant? Something the "I" loves to use?

Not that an entity "I" can be found in reality. But yes, there can be the perception "I feel" and then it seems that these energetic sensations and thoughts are "mine", "me", as if somehow "proof" of a fixed self.

. I could also say or think something like: "I feel I have to do something about it".
I know even before looking that this is just a sensation in the body and/or hearing words as thoughts. It might seem like the thought and sensation are linked together, and I think the attention can focus on them together simultaneously.
My hypothesis: "I feel I have to do something about it" = Energetic sensation in the body + Thinking "I have to do something about it".

Yes. This is good. Sooner or later it becomes clear that no self has ever given rise to any of this but the illusion appears anyway and seems to work in this way .


Let me know how it's going?

Warmly

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

No worries. And thank you for your great questions. I am very grateful for this and enjoy reading your replies.

Try returning to the feet exercise once more and notice the sensation around the soles, where there is contact with floor. Close your eyes. Is there beginning or end to this sensation? Is there "you, feeling it"? Where do "feet" end and "floor" begin?

There is no real beginning or end to the experience. No one feeling it. The feet sometimes feel "cold", or a feeling of cold feet makes it more easy to pin point the feet than the contact point between the floor and feet. There is no sharp edge I can detect between the floor and feet. More a sense of a cloud of sensations distributed around the sole of the feet. And interestingly nothing feels solid. It's more like a resistance between the feet and floor.


Warm regards

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi

. No worries. And thank you for your great questions. I am very grateful for this and enjoy reading your replies.

Very glad to hear this.

. More a sense of a cloud of sensations distributed around the sole of the feet. And interestingly nothing feels solid. It's more like a resistance between the feet and floor

Some great looking here. Well done.

I feel that you are very willing to investigate all this. So part of my job is to get out of the way and only ask necessary questions. To an extent you can take the lead.

Is there anything. Any doubt or niggle, however big or small that you would like to chat about? Anything that doesn't make sense?

All the best

Jon