Going deeper

[AwayKen127]

Hi Bill,

First, thanks for your thoughts on leadership.

So my question back would be this: "Why not relax into life knowing that it will be exactly what it is, and could not be otherwise?" Why isn't that a mental world that I hope will be knowable and predictable? Why isn't that another strategy to have a semblance of control?

I'm asking you to feel into it. I'm not offering a strategy or suggesting a course of action. Feel into the relaxation of non-resistance, non-vigilance, non-control.

"Life, however, is no particular way, no matter what thoughts seem to say about it." It's no particular way? Okay so, you say, "The world, where most people live, is suffering." That implies that for most people life is a particular way - suffering. And if life is suffering - a particular way - for most people, the implication is there is another particular way that life could be or actually is - relaxed into and exactly what it is.

You're evaluating my statements. Why? Because you want to understand life, which will help you to control it and to get the outcomes you want and avoid the outcomes you don't want. Right? Do you see that? When I say that life is no particular way, I'm pointing to direct experience. Direct experience is not good or bad. Direct experience is not permanent or impermanent, real or unreal, personal or impersonal, here or there or everywhere. It is not bound by any concept. It is not this way or that. There is simply nothing to be said about it and nothing to be done about it. When you see this clearly, won't you feel relaxed?

Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

"I'm asking you to feel into it. I'm not offering a strategy or suggesting a course of action. Feel into the relaxation of non-resistance, non-vigilance, non-control."

Very helpful Jeff.

With respect to your second response, I don't really have anything new to say about it. "When you see this clearly, won't you feel relaxed?" I have absolutely no idea how I would feel if I see this clearly.

[AwayKen127]

I have absolutely no idea how I would feel if I see this clearly.

Yes! You're getting it! Which part is unclear? That there is nothing to be said about direct experience, or that there is nothing to be done about it? If you are seeing (let's say) the color blue, is there anything you could say to a blind man that would enable him to experience the color blue? If you are seeing the color blue, is there anything that needs to be done for that seeing to happen? For example, do you have to say to yourself, "I am seeing the color blue?" What if there is a thought, "I'm not actually seeing blue; this is an hallucination"? What if there is a thought, "I am seeing red"? Does any of that change the direct experience of seeing the color blue?

[wgiruzzi926]

Hmmm... simple.

[AwayKen127]

Hey Bill,

Hmmm... simple.

What we're going for is preconceptual direct experience. The way a baby sees the world before he was "born" as a self. There can be nothing simpler.

Just Seeing Exercise

Have a seat and look straight ahead. Describe what you see (colors and shapes, brightness--without interpretations or labels--just the direct experience).

Now, keeping your gaze straight ahead, widen your awareness to a bit and describe what you see surrounding the view directly ahead.

Once more, keeping your gaze straight ahead, widen your awareness more until everything is included. Describe what you see.

Keeping your gaze straight ahead, where precisely in the scene is the see-er? Where in the scene does seeing occur?

Repeat the above as often as you like. Is anything unclear?

I'll respond when I get back late Monday or early Tuesday.

Best,
Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

I know you're offline till Tuesday. I haven't done the exercise yet, but I will.

I was listening to a Rupert Spira audio this morning (https://youtu.be/icA6yzP9wFU if you're interested). Somewhere in there he started talking about the characters we play - that we are not the characters. We are the space, the silence, the stillness inside of which the character shows up.

Somewhere in there, he said something that sounded new to me. He seemed to suggest that the intent of this inquiry is to know who we are, but it's not necessarily to live always in the stillness. We are going to go play the different characters, BUT we will do so not living in the illusion that the character is who we are.

Curious your thoughts on this.

[AwayKen127]

Hi Bill, I'm back.

Curious your thoughts on this.

Do you really want to hear some second-hand thought about a third party's thoughts? Or do you want to see for yourself directly what only you can see? Nothing I or anyone else says about awakening can or should be believed. At best, they are pointing to something beyond thought, which can never be understood but which can be SEEN. Even when someone challenges a belief you hold, it would be a mistake to adopt the opposite belief. They are just pointing to the emptiness of all beliefs, which is something you can SEE.

How did the exercise go?

Jeff

[wgiruzzi926]

Funny. Within 5 minutes of sending my question, I had the thought, "Why are you asking him a question about someone else's point of view?"

The exercise went great I think.I don't have much to say about it other than seeing is happening "other there" where life is happening.

[AwayKen127]

The exercise went great I think.I don't have much to say about it other than seeing is happening "other there" where life is happening.

I'm looking for a detailed report of direct experience at each stage.

[wgiruzzi926]

Hi

Sorry, I just did the exercise again and I'm honestly not sure what you're looking for. The instructions tell me to describe what I see without labels. It's all labels - tree, green, car, light. It's all labels so not sure what particularly to share.

[AwayKen127]

Sorry, I meant describe the direct experience at each stage.
Jeff

[AwayKen127]

Direct experience of sight is: colors, shapes, brightness.

[wgiruzzi926]

1st stage: light green in bright light, dark green in dim shadows, blue, leaves closer to me blowing, leaves further from me still, brown, silver (cars), red, white (lamp post)

2nd stage: Light brown walls, white light switch, blace TV, brown sofa, multi-color pictured, blue thermos. Dim light

3rd stage: white, light bright green, blue, brown, darker brown, white on brown, tan.

That's all I've got.

[AwayKen127]

The point of the exercise is to see the see-er (the one who is seeing). Did you see a see-er? Is there a "center" to seeing or a point of view in direct experience?

[wgiruzzi926]

There's no seer. There's no center. There's no point of view.