The Gate

Hey Luchana!

But is there such things as mind in reality?

No there isn't. As we were saying yesterday, the mind exists only as a concept.

Isn't it strange that huge majority of thoughts are about the self?

It is very strange! Haha we have so many misconceptions about thoughts.

And what if the only seeming "other" thought is also about the self , me just in a hidden way? What if ALL thoughts are about me?

I can see now how the vast majority refers back to the self. A thought like "the curtain is white" apparently independent from the self actually implies someone that is seeing and defining the experience of seeing/remembering the white curtain and also that is separate from it.
But what about a thought like "The speed of light is exactly equal to 299,792,458 meters per second"?
I'm struggling to see how also this thought is about a self and more generally thoughts on other abstract thoughts/concepts.

With love,
Mary

Hi Mary,

But what about a thought like "The speed of light is exactly equal to 299,792,458 meters per second"?
I'm struggling to see how also this thought is about a self and more generally thoughts on other abstract thoughts/concepts.

Oh :-) It can be tricky..but actually it is very simple. This is a presumtion that there is an entity which knows this, an indipendent entity which thinks " But what about..." and which can use this knowledge for its own benefit.
In reality there is just a thought with a content " But what about the speed of light ....

Now look at this:

Does a thougths about a me/self refer to a REAL me or it is refering to another thought about me/self?

Look very carefully. With curiosity.

Much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana,
Yes, I get it now. Every thought is ultimately about a self, an underlying idea of someone that is both thinking and listening/registering the thought and can use it for its benefit as you said. Whether it is a thought overtly about the self or a thought about other ideas/concepts and abstractions, there is always an implied subject behind it.

Does a thougths about a me/self refer to a REAL me or it is refering to another thought about me/self?

It is referring to more thoughts. The "entity" behind thinking is made up of more thinking. I am this, I am that... I find more and more thoughts...

With love,
Mary

Hi Mary,

It is referring to more thoughts. The "entity" behind thinking is made up of more thinking. I am this, I am that... I find more and more thoughts...

Nice.

There are words which point to objects, to material things - like table, chair, door. There are words like university, town, port that are used for communication, but can not be found as a thing and the third are words like Santa, like Batman, or like self. These are imaginary characters, they point to something that isn't real.

Can you cleary see this?


And something else to look.

How would you explane to 5 years old child that his/her imaginary friend does not exist in reality.

It must be very, very simple.

Much love,
Luchana

Can you cleary see this?

Yes it is clear.

How would you explane to 5 years old child that his/her imaginary friend does not exist in reality.

How can you tell your friend is real without thinking about it? Can you see him/her? Can you touch him/her? Or maybe smell him/her? Can you hear his/her voice? If you can only reference thoughts for its existence it is not real.

Hi Mary,

Yes it is clear.

Lovely! If a doubt comes - please do share.

How can you tell your friend is real without thinking about it? Can you see him/her? Can you touch him/her? Or maybe smell him/her? Can you hear his/her voice? If you can only reference thoughts for its existence it is not real.

This is very good! Great questions to ask :-)

So imaginary friend can't be seen, smelled, touched.

It "lives" only as a content of a thought.


Let’s examin now a choice and desicion making.

Take two glasses with different beverages (milk and water, or juise and coke, or coffe and tea). It could be also something else..
Put these glasses in front of you. Close your eyes for a min and than look at glasses and choose one.

As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?


How the decision is made which glass to choose?

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Do ‘you’ choose?

Can a chooser be located?

Take your time.

Sending much love and see you later :-)

Luchana

Hi Luchana,
Sorry it took so long to reply to your post, but I couldn't find a quiet moment to investigate in these last few days.

As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?

I notice movements, I notices thougths describing what is going on, but I can't find a self that is separated from the body that moves it and controls it. It is really automatic in this sense. Moreover, the fact that the body takes care of so many things without the need to think about it or refer to a "self" makes me quite confident to say that the self is not in charge of the process.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?

It seems there is a tendency towards tea over coffee that is influenced by some evaluations that come up. But "I" am not choosing what comes up. There are thoughts about the fact that more caffeine might make me nervous/tense and also that tea is generally healthier. These thoughts come up spontaneously

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

I would say it is process. I can't pinpoint a single moment in which the decision happens but it is more an automatic consequence of some preferences/ideas/conditionings...
Actually while typing these words I see how there is no choice at all. The whole concept of choice is not making sense right now. We think about a choice as a single act of choosing something over something else, as the culmination moment of an evaluation of different possibilities. But the dynamics that lead to a certain decision cannot be enclosed in a single moment. There is absolutely no moment in which a decision takes place, there are only happenings that depend on other happenings.

Do ‘you’ choose?

No, I don't. The chain of events is so intricate and interconnected that believing to be in charge of what happens is actually quite naive. Everything acts upon anything else really.

Can a chooser be located?

No choice and no chooser can be located.

With love,
Mary

Hi Mary,

Sorry it took so long to reply to your post, but I couldn't find a quiet moment to investigate in these last few days.

It is ok, no worries. Sometimes it is like that.

I notice movements, I notices thougths describing what is going on, but I can't find a self that is separated from the body that moves it and controls it. It is really automatic in this sense. Moreover, the fact that the body takes care of so many things without the need to think about it or refer to a "self" makes me quite confident to say that the self is not in charge of the process.

You did a very good looking.

It seems there is a tendency towards tea over coffee that is influenced by some evaluations that come up. But "I" am not choosing what comes up. There are thoughts about the fact that more caffeine might make me nervous/tense and also that tea is generally healthier. These thoughts come up spontaneously

Exactly! There may be preferences, (as content of thoughts) but this doesn't mean that there is something in them choosing.
Can you clearly see that?

It is really automatic in this sense.

I would say it is process. I can't pinpoint a single moment in which the decision happens but it is more an automatic consequence of some preferences/ideas/conditionings...

Right.
Now look -

Is there something which is NOT automatic?
Is there something which is not being choosen as a product of conditioning, preferences?

Actually while typing these words I see how there is no choice at all. The whole concept of choice is not making sense right now. We think about a choice as a single act of choosing something over something else, as the culmination moment of an evaluation of different possibilities. But the dynamics that lead to a certain decision cannot be enclosed in a single moment. There is absolutely no moment in which a decision takes place, there are only happenings that depend on other happenings.

Such a beautiful insight!

Now let's dig deeper in the so called process of choosing.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?


Sending much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana!

Exactly! There may be preferences, (as content of thoughts) but this doesn't mean that there is something in them choosing. Can you clearly see that?

Yes!

Is there something which is NOT automatic?
Is there something which is not being chosen as a product of conditioning, preferences?

I guess not. Thoughts, as conditioning/preferences that influence actions, arise automatically.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Thoughts spontaneously appear listing pros and cons. There is no I considering options.

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

Thoughts appeared automatically in response to the situation.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No I can't. The idea that "I" made the choice exists in the structure of thoughts. It is only a label.

How exactly the decision is made?

The decision is made according to many forms of conditionings. There may be thoughts that pop up commenting and presenting different considerations but eventually the decision seems to be made by itself.

What is it that performed the chosen action?

The body performed the action.

Thank you Luchana.
Sending love,
Mary

Hi Mary,

you did a very good looking.

What is it that performed the chosen action?

The body performed the action.

Let'a make another exploration.

In the morning when you woke up stay for 5 min in the bed, than leave it.

Look thorough. Be very alert.

Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision" to leave the bad come from?
Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?
Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?
What makes the body get up?
Does a ‘you’ command the body?
Does a thought command the body?

During the day investigate also simple daily activities - like what to dress, what to eat, drink and so on. ..?

Is there a place where the commands come from?
Who ot what gives them?
Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?
Can a source be found?

Dig deep.


Much love,
Luchana

Good morning Luchana,
I've stayed with these question a couple of days before answering.

Can you see a self making you leave the bed?

No, I can't

Where does the "decision" to leave the bed come from?

It doesn't come from any specific location.

Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?

No, it is an automatic impulse

Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?

No controller hiding anywhere

What makes the body get up?

An impulse that is not traceable.

Does a ‘you’ command the body?

No me commands the body!

Does a thought command the body?

No thoughts command the body.

Is there a place where the commands come from?

Nope!

Who or what gives them?

I don't know, but it is definitely not an autonomous entity

Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?

No point of decision is found. That seems to exist only from thoughts

Can a source be found?

No source can be found



Sending lots of love,
Mary

Hi Mary,

you did a good looking and I'm still smiling after our meeting today. Almost can feel the lightness and relief.

Let's look now a little bit more at the believe of control and decision making.


Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.

When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?


Do this as many times as you want and have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana

Hey Luchana! :)

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

I don't know where the impulse comes from but it is definitely not a defined thing/entity. There may be a thought trying to predict the next move or claim ownership of the past move but thoughts are not in control of the process

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No I can't!

What is it that is controlling the hand?

It doesn't seem there is anyone controlling it

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

I can't locate any controller

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

I can't find anything

How is the decision made?

The instructions are understood and the task is performed without the presence of someone controlling the movements. I don't know how the decision is actually made. It is spontaneous, coming out of nowhere specific

I noticed some resistance in these days... I would get sleepy or hungry every time I tried this exercise.
There was also some frustration about "not getting it" but it was easier to recognize it as thoughts+sensation and don't get too entangled in it.

Sending love,
Mary

Hi Mary,

you did a very good looking.

I noticed some resistance in these days... I would get sleepy or hungry every time I tried this exercise.
There was also some frustration about "not getting it" but it was easier to recognize it as thoughts+sensation and don't get too entangled in it.

Oh, so good that you notice that. Yes, this is a resistance, subtle form of resisting.
The exercise with the hands is so powerful, seeing that no one is choosing and deciding may bring fear to the system, because it is not used to. But It has always been like this, just now you are somehow experiencing the truth of this. No one choosing, yet choices and decisions happen perfectly on time in their own accord.
And what's seen can't be unseen.
First do not fight with the resistance. You can take a nap, you can grab something to eat. Do not resist resistance.

But what can you do also is to stay a little bit with it and ask:

Why are you here?
What are you protecting me from?
What may happen if I don't resist?

Approach it with curiosity if it is an old friend which you are happy to see :-)

Sending much love,
Luchana

Hey Luchana,
I tried to evoke the resistance even if today there was actually more calmness.

Why are you here?
What are you protecting me from?
What may happen if I don't resist?

Asking these questions, thoughts came up about fearing the failure of not actually seeing no self. Like if the resistance to dive into the investigation, to look directly, arose to manifest the belief of not being able to see.

But these are all thoughts. More and more stories. It's seems even silly to share this right now. Nothing other than thoughts are found when looking for the "I" who can miss this realization. It's just that there is still automatic identification with their content most of the time

Anyway, everything felt more quiet today. If in the next few days I notice more resistance, I will try to do this investigation again.

Thank you Luchana.
Lots of love,
Mary