I am ready to begin. Is Ilona available?

[Ilona]

Answer when it feels right. and with full honesty. :)
sending love.

[TPT]

So do you exist?
Is there a separate self that is in charge of life?

well lets see. i dont know when my next thought will come. i have no control over my breathing. i can hold my breath but eventually i have to let go and when the body decides to stop breathing for good theres nothing that can be done about it. as far as a seperate self that is in charge of life well i would have to say no bc "I" have tried to control life and it cant be done. if anything life happens and I react to it. I have to be careful with this I because the I and me can pull you back from getting this. language can be dangerous. i think you would say life happens , then reaction happens. how to know there is no I instead thinking there is no I?

So do I exist? well theres something here though not sure what. theres awareness of things, theres awareness of thought , feelings, physical reactions, physical sensations. there at least appears to be choice about things. i drive somewhere and i can go right or left. it sure seems there is choice when a right turn is chosen especially when i have already planned a destination just to keep things simple. of course it applies to the biggest choices in life. confusing

[Ilona]

How do you know that there is no I? You look for yourself and find out the truth of it. Otherwise it can become another belief and nothing changes.

And the place you look is direct experience as well as language.

Read this post http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... s.html?m=1
And do the exercise. You can write here or on a paper whatever feels better for you.

Then tell me, how was it and what did you learn from it.

Much love.

[TPT]

I am typing. I am petting the cat. I am sitting in this chair. I am listening to the quiet house. I am hearing the clicking of the keyboard . I am drinking from this cup. I am rocking in this chair. I am looking out the window. I am paying attention to my breath. I am looking around the room . I am feeling my feet touch the floor. I am thinking about earlier and I am feeling slight anger from it. I am hearing the cat makes noises. I am hearing the ac turn off. I am hearing the slight buzz from the computer. I am hearing the chimes from outside. I am thinking about things that irritate me.

I noticed a tightening in my chest during the exercise. I also noticed my face tensing up slightly. I felt some sighs coming from my breath. I also notice some slumping posture.


Breathing, typing, hearing chimes ringing, sitting , blinking, rubbing feet on floor, deeper breathing, watching, waiting, no more anger, more watching, typing, typing ,typing , deeper relaxation while sitting. Chest relaxtion, watching, wondering, awareness, coughing, blinking, noticing chimes again, watching

There was a change in my breathing and anger subsided quickly. The word I after doing the exercise did actually seem unnecessary . like this all was happening regardless. Also everything happened automatically. By the time I had realized I was typing with the though typing is happening it had already started. It does seem like the I slows down experience, like dragging a heavy weight behind.

[Ilona]

Yes I is like a baggage on a journey that you drag around but it's not necesary nor useful nor practical.

Now look at that label I as construct of language. Is there an I that dies sitting, breathing and typing or it's really just happening. Was there ever an I?

Take a look here.


Going great!

[TPT]

you mention is there an I that dies? my wifes grandfather died yesterday at the hospital. i went up there with her for support. i barely knew him so i didnt have any attachment. i was fascinated to be there though and see this lifeless body who was working in his yard just 2 days before that. i had to reign in the fascination though bc there were people very upset . i was thinking about is there an I that dies while i was looking at him laying there with his mouth open where i can tell he took his last breath. So while standing looking concerned i was actually trying to work this process. so is there an I that dies. well i was thinking there the body lays inanimate like theres nothing there. but just yesterday there was a personality there. so i was like well then the I is the personality. this "me" is this mans personality. but then i had the thought well that personality is just his conditioning from throughout his long life. his beliefs, thoughts , opinion, sense of humor etc was all determined by environmental factors. just like his name, any of these could be changed and he would be still be there. it seems that I and Ken are exactly the same. A label i understand that. its still cloudy though bc even though his conditioned personality is all made up when that left i just saw the shell of a person and not the person. so its hard to untangle the I personality from awareness. it seems that awareness is the nakedness and the personality is its clothes but its hard to differentiate when your not sure what awareness is. i guess that comes from carrying around this me thought for so long. man i feel so close to understanding this yet so far away too.

[TPT]

pondering all this got me thinking about Castaway with Tom Hanks. i wonder bc of how this me is so ingrained if i was stranded on a desert island with no one around what would happen to this Me . i might try to ponder this as an exercise. tom hanks had that volleyball he created into another person bc the bloody handprint looked like a face. this seemed like the egos way of self preservation. there were no other mes around to keep it going so it had to create a me to keep him from goin nuts. but i wonder what if he never had discovered that way to preserve that me what would have happened? would he have gone nuts or would he have been liberated? lol i think one of the things that have kept people ( myself included) from seein this who want to is the constant me presence everywhere in the world. seems like a interesting exercise if you could put yourself in his shoes. there would be no one there to call your name, no one to impress etc. the fuel to the me fire would would be running on fumes. maybe at the beginning the thoughts would rage and emotions would too but i think after a time maybe he woulda been aware of space that the thoughts and emotions come and go and seen they werent him. or the me would have driven him nuts. sorry im a movie nut so i look for stuff like this when i watch movies. so my exercise would be to try to imagine this situation and watch the labels disappear one by one until maybe i can get to the biggest label of all, the me one. or is that all mind stuff just keeping me away from the direct pointing? what do you think?

[TPT]

hey you must be taking a day off. thats cool , enjoy Ilona

[Ilona]

hi, yes, i was taking a day of. sun is rare here in rainy england and i got too relaxed to be able to talk some serious stuff here.

ok, so what have you been noticing recently? is there a need for a me to exist at all? if so, what are the functions of me? if not, do you see that there is no me at all?

let me know where you are at and we shall precede.
much love.

[TPT]

well what i have been noticing is how im feeling. ive been able to go with the flow more even when things arent goin my way im not fighting it as much. theres still resistance there so i must still feel there is a me. everything you say makes sense. ive been trying throughout the day to watch what i do and see if its automatic , watch thoughts and try to see where they come from etc... mostly ive just been watching everything i say, think , do. i can see there is no me at certain times but it doesnt stick. i guess i havent seen all the way through it yet. i see no need for a me to exist for most things as far as living life regularly but what about achieving. i guess its hard to give up the idea of me for i feel i may not have a personal will anymore. i finding hard to describe what i mean. like if i give up the idea of me then maybe im giving up the idea of control which is scary bc then i feel like then i may never achieve things. i havent achieved much at this point anyway.i think im having a hard time with no control and that life may not be any better for me than it is now. does that make any sense?

[Ilona]

its hard to give up the idea of me for i feel i may not have a personal will anymore.

do you have a personal will now? is it possible that you only believe that you have personal will?

let's see:
blink tree times now..

did it happen?
can you choose to like or not to like cheese?
can you choose to be something you are not?
can you choose your past? your future?
can you not hear sounds outside now?

what can you control?
what is not on automatic?

[TPT]

well i didnt blink 3 times but i could then i could make myself blink 3 times. if i wanted to blink 3 times nothing could stop me from doing it. i could say now im going to do it and then do it. its true that preferences seem automatic such as certain music or foods. can you choose to be something im not not? well thats tricky bc people set goals and meet them such as losing weight or go from being a janitor to ceo of a company by choices such as school, training etc.. im not trying to be difficult im just confused and dont wanna just skim over it and act like i get it when i really dont yet. thanks for your paitence Ilona

ps if feels like i cannot control what i see , hear , what happens but i can my reaction to it.

[Ilona]

How do you control your reaction? Isn't it arrising naturally? Does brain need a manager, in other words..
Investigate here. Also watch how other people's reactions arise when something comes up.

Notice that everything is a bit like itch and a scratch.
Tell me, is there a doer of reactions.

Sending love.

[TPT]

crap i wrote a big paragraph then submitted it and it didnt show up and i lost it all. ahhhh lol

basically i said that yes there is no doer of reactions. i saw something in the road today and reacted by jerking my car out of the way. i did not plan it didnt know i was goin to do it. if someone says something that angers me or makes me sad i have no control of the thoughts then emotions that come up but i find they can be watched and not identified with. i have had the strange feeling since i started this with you of almost not participating in my life but just watching it. like awareness of my body doing things, words coming out of my mouth, etc. and theres just watching. its been strange like im watching a movie sorta. it must have always been happening but its more in conscious awareness now. i can only attribute it to our conversation. i said much more but i distilled it down to this which is the core

[Ilona]

Beautiful.
Now let's see, is there a watcher?
Is watching just arising by itself or there is some kind of watcher somewhere.

Is it I that is watching?
Does awareness need a watcher separate from it?

Here are some questions for you to investigate :)
Much love.